[MusicallyInspired]

CatNapDreams used to frequent here quite a bit.

[Aleks]

Since the idea of picking "community maps/mods" to play "together" seems to gain popularity, why don't we move on with it and try to actually implement it for once instead of just babbling about it? I'd personally be less "restrictive" than what Fist Marine mentioned, e.g. let's keep it to fewer levels per month, so whoever wants to can easily participate in it without it interfereing with their lives too much. Now for some potential maps/mods to start with, here's a brief list of what I think could be appropriate as the first one:

• some "official" addon, so basically Duke it Out in DC or Duke Caribbean,
• one of the top-rated map packs: Merlijn's Red series, Pascal's Roch series or William's WG Space series.

Feel free to add to that list, then we could vote and chose one for the first month I suppose.

Quote

There is disparity between the Build scene and its (current) YouTube representation because there is a dichotomy between the people mapping/modding and the people playing/uploading. Myself I don't mind it and if anything I find it interesting to study. On my work breaks (so pretty much daily) I often look up "duke 3D user map" on YouTube sorted by date (filtering the most recent uploads) which takes 5 seconds and is enough to give me an idea of the evolution of the representation of Duke 3D/Build content on that platform, I do that because as a mapper watching players interact with levels is always interesting and I'm always too short on spare time to play games and so I consume a lot of Duke content indirectly (one could say for the sake of the art - I've actually posted about that parallel I like to make before). My observation is historically, perhaps just half a decade (but probably a bit more) back, there was literally nothing on YouTube pertaining to Duke 3D or Build but the occasional basic clip of random gameplay footage; then as streaming services became popular, people started exploiting that platform a lot more and a few occasional uploaders of user map playthroughs started to appear. Then around the time World Tour dropped, there was this huge rise where tons of people were uploading different videos every day, before it started slowly calming down again but some of the effervescence still remained. Since then we got big channels like Civvie11's, the general representation of video games on YouTube has gotten huge (I feel like it used to be more exceptional, probably pre-Twitch popularity peak), 'retro gaming' has become a gimmick but also an attractive trend, and there are a few uploaders that specialize in Duke 3D/Build or the pre-Quake era of FPS's in particular. And very naturally, things will keep developing and evolving, but as long as the mappers/modders are (understandably and logically) too busy creating to also rep the field with marketing there will always be some kind of breach. Again that's not necessarily a bad thing, I regularly run into new maps people just post on YouTube that aren't available anywhere else until I rep them, which creates an exchange and raises awareness about this website as a community hub too, or sometimes via YouTube comments you can make people know of classic maps or mods they weren't aware of due to their more casual approach that they end up enjoying and recording. The community just gotta keep feeding itself.

Now if someone is really concerned about making a solid representation of Duke 3D on YouTube then I'm tempted to say that's easy, just follow into the footsteps of what Arrovfnukem or CGS have been doing. Arrovf had the right idea with a YouTube channel with a video playthrough for each map and its review on his website then basically quit when he was ahead, CGS has been trying to include videos to their reviews too but those aren't original uploads, Puritan is just hosting other people's videos and so the exposition is one-way. Mikko does some great work with MSDN but without outside representation, his website is bound to remain niche. Just come up with the same thing Arrovf did but in 2021, upload several times a week, link to your website with reviews, make the occasional Build/Mapster tutorials as people love that shit, keep it Duke 3D/Build-centered, play every map/mod respecting the renderers they were intended for, basically don't do anything stupid and there you go. Now that's work and probably the equivalent to a full-time job and that's exactly why no one's doing it, most people are too busy, the others may be too lazy and that's fine. But if that's somebody's goal and they have time and elbow grease then it's attainable. I like High Treason's Build porn tutorials for instance, remember this is a community so whoever is down to go all out for fame could always work with such people, uploaders and activists to alleviate workload if that's a concern. Duke4 could and would probably host something like this too. Complaining <<< initiative (and both take comparable energy and time).

I think the only proper way to really do a project of such a scale that would prevail would be in a team instead of solo. First thing is, it would indeed pretty much be a full time job, but then also the person losing interest sooner or later would pretty much end the project (as was the case with Arrovf I suppose). With more people involved, there's usually more motivation, also in case someone leaves for whatever reasons, the rest of the team should be able to find someone else in their place. Hell, even I'm sometimes tempted to record a gameplay video, but then I couldn't be assed to really upload it on YouTube since it would pretty much require setting up a channel and keep on recording more videos for it to have any relevance really. But if more people would be into it, then I'd gladly contribute something myself too. Besides all the stuff you mentioned, one thing I'd personally would love to see would be a gameplay video from a level designer perspective, perhaps not even from the author of the level, but someone else experiencing, commenting and breaking down the tricks/effects/level design choices the original author implemented. I catch myself a lot of times having more fun trying to guess the effect/texture combination used somewhere in a super creative way than from the level itself.

Anyway, I like how this thread turned from "Duke Nukem is dead" into "How to keep Duke Nukem alive"

[jkas789]

This sounds like a a pretty good idea!

[Jimmy]

Immanuel Cunt, on 04 May 2021 - 01:20 PM, said:

Are there any women here besides leilei? Actually unsure whether that's a woman. Probably not.

I identify as a woman because the government lets me.

[Aristotle Gumball]

Women with guy/unisex names seem hotter somehow. Like Duke or Bernard. Knew a Conrad Augustus von Shenkenberg once. She was hot af.

[MrFlibble]

FistMarine, on 03 May 2021 - 09:47 PM, said:

FistMarine actually (based on a gif of DoomGuy holding his fists). Maybe I should add the avatar (and the Duke running as signature or something).

Apologies, I automatically read FirstMarine and never noticed that I was wrong until you pointed it out Sorry!

Aleks, on 04 May 2021 - 03:18 PM, said:

Anyway, I like how this thread turned from "Duke Nukem is dead" into "How to keep Duke Nukem alive"

Same here! But I have to admit that personally I've always found it not easy to impart my interest in something to others, unless they were already inclined towards these interests.

I mentioned it before that new generations of players will likely never be able to experience Duke3D (or any other "old" game for that matter) the same was as we did who remember it when it was new. There's nothing inherently wrong with this, it's the natural course of events, but to me this makes it a bit hard to get "into" the mindset of an audience to which Duke is introduced for the first time -- and against a totally different backdrop compared to myself.

To be perfectly honest, I cannot describe the entirety of why I like Duke3D. The way combat works, the way the levels are designed, the emphasis on exploration and not just fighting -- all these play a part, and this is why I also like Ion Fury for example. But I can't get off the feeling that there's something else there, some kind of "nostalgia", and the fact that I more or less regularly play Duke3D, even if for a bit at a time, since the early 2000s when I first got ahold of my own copy of the game.

At the same time my liking of Duke3D came naturally, this was not a kind of "acquired taste" where you need to adjust yourself to unfamiliar game rules or mechanics. The game fits very organically into the context of its contemporary "3D Shooter"/FPS scene, but likely much less so against the backdrop of today's gaming experience, even with the "retro shooter" fad. I've actually heard bad opinions about Ion Fury's gameplay and design from people who still remember Duke3D when it was new, but apparently forgot how to play, or never really played it properly in the first place. Hence, they could not appreciate Ion Fury and blamed this on the designers as the game failed to match their expectations which were based on faded Duke3D memories.

There's also one thing. It seems that people often have the impression that anyone can play a video game, although in reality it takes some learning to do so. It's just when you're introduced to games as a kid you learn faster and don't notice that you develop some very specific skills while doing so, because your attention is captured by what is going on in the game. When StarCraft Remasted was released, experienced players made videos introducing the possible new players to game mechanics, and perhaps it would not be an overkill to do something like this for Build games as well. I have not followed the FPS scene of the previous decade or so but I am aware of the introduction of game mechanics, and consequently playing styles, that made Duke3D and co.'s gameplay different and perhaps even counter-intuitive to expectations of at least some in the player base.

UPD: I'm not suggesting outright tutorial videos that explain the basics of playing, but maybe a playthrough of E1 (for example) with a thoughtful commentary that explains what we're doing and why, which weapons work best in what situation etc.

[ck3D]

^ I disagree with new generations being unable to experience Duke 3D for what it is, because the qualities you then go on to describe (and that we all know and love) seem pretty timeless to me. What the new generations will be missing is some direct context, for instance I remember playing Duke DC contemporarily to Bill Clinton's presidency and so that really felt like something real at the time, or we could go on about how the game references movies and popular culture from the 1990's in particular but I really think those tones are more anecdotal, in the moment they obviously added flavor and now some are literal historic curiosities but Duke 3D didn't exactly rely on them to be a great game, even disregarding context there is something about the art in level design and graphic direction, the capabilities of the engine, the flow of the player, charisma of the enemies/lore and feel of the weapons. The way I see playing Duke 3D is really akin to playing/crafting your own cartoon or comic book - and that's an observation that especially hit me hard not so long ago whilst watching a playthrough video of Shaky Grounds 3 really high, because of Merlijn's knack for creative use of the base tiles, I've been mapping for 20 years and it still slaps me sometimes how strong those assets can stand against the test of time, signifying that the qualities of the game even in detail are that good. Duke 3D is inherently a good game, if anything I actually love the idea of new generations reinterpreting it over and over (and one kind of has to love it because that's what's naturally happens anyway), seeing fresh disconnected takes on a support we thought we knew. It's been way over two decades and people still aren't done with the greatness of this game.

More tutorials or, at least, a more modern presentation for tutorials (since as such the Infosuite is close to perfect) would indeed help democratizing Build/Mapster, yeah - same logic I was trying to bring earlier with the idea of exploiting modern platforms in general. There is a definite generation gap between the OG enthusiasts and the younger people mapping now, and the latter don't use the Internet the same way as the former, so there is a disconnection somewhere in the communication (although this forum is easily decipherable as a community hub and very easy to find, it's still a forum). I mean, personally I'm too old just for Discord when out there peeps are watching trap music videos and shit.

I've actually thought of documenting my mapping process before and explain how I do my thing step by step with the logic behind it, but given my current capabilities that would have to be text- and image-based and so redundant with all the other old-school information that's already available, and thus not worth the time (at least right now). Maybe people should stream mapping more? Would there be an audience?

[Aristotle Gumball]

ck3D, on 05 May 2021 - 12:35 PM, said:

Maybe people should stream mapping more? Would there be an audience?

I'd watch the shit out of it. I love absorbing content in video form.

[MrFlibble]

ck3D, on 05 May 2021 - 12:35 PM, said:

^ I disagree with new generations being unable to experience Duke 3D for what it is

Nonono, I did not mean to say this. It's exactly the opposite. I meant that they're unable to experience it against the backdrop where it was cutting-edge technology, new, shiny and advanced. Conversely, experiencing Duke3D "for what it is" (as I understand it) is not related to the context of other games and hence is available to everyone.

I just meant that when Duke3D came out in 1996 (and was eagerly awaited in 1995 etc.), the big part of the WOW effect was in how you could do a lot of stuff that you couldn't in other contemporary/previous games. Today, I guess new generations of players can imagine what it was to be there, but there's no more WOW in many of those things right now because it's been since repeated and expanded upon in dozens of other titles.

It's a separate layer from the actual game itself where these pieces work to produce a coherent playing experience that holds its ground today just as well. But we can't deny that this layer exists and was part of the awesome for us.

ck3D, on 05 May 2021 - 12:35 PM, said:

I really think those tones are more anecdotal, in the moment they obviously added flavor and now some are literal historic curiosities but Duke 3D didn't exactly rely on them to be a great game

You're right, but at the same time, those little bits are essential to Duke's identity as a game, if not as a character.

Even as we know that all the talk about how Duke is "inappropriate" as a character is nothing but media BS, such talk would not exist if it weren't for all the risque stuff in the game.

It's not really easy to take any game or character apart and filter out the subjective personal experience that was tied to a particular time. Thankfully, Nintendo at least showed us that Duke remains himself even without pixellated boobs and seedy bars.

ck3D, on 05 May 2021 - 12:35 PM, said:

even disregarding context there is something about the art in level design and graphic direction, the capabilities of the engine, the flow of the player, charisma of the enemies/lore and feel of the weapons.

Personally I cannot get off the feeling that exactly in relation to these aspects of the game, everything gets very subjective. If you ask around players who are not fans of Duke3D but appreciate "old style" FPS games in general, they might just as well name other Build games (Blood or Shadow Warrior) as their preferred title and will provide some good arguments for their choice.

But of course the art assets in Duke3D allow for a lot of variety in user map design, in addition to possible variations of gameplay that can be achieved by careful placement of items and enemies.

I think it is not unreasonable for potential new players to ask why exactly they would want to spend their time with Duke and not a different game that is largely similar. Or what makes Duke special against newer titles. If you set aside subjective and irrational factors, I'd put forward the very solid and consistent gameplay, but from reading other people's opinions I know that not everyone actually likes the kind of FPS gameplay offered by vanilla Duke3D.

[ck3D]

MrFlibble, on 06 May 2021 - 07:00 AM, said:

Nonono, I did not mean to say this. It's exactly the opposite. I meant that they're unable to experience it against the backdrop where it was cutting-edge technology, new, shiny and advanced. Conversely, experiencing Duke3D "for what it is" (as I understand it) is not related to the context of other games and hence is available to everyone.

I just meant that when Duke3D came out in 1996 (and was eagerly awaited in 1995 etc.), the big part of the WOW effect was in how you could do a lot of stuff that you couldn't in other contemporary/previous games. Today, I guess new generations of players can imagine what it was to be there, but there's no more WOW in many of those things right now because it's been since repeated and expanded upon in dozens of other titles.

It's a separate layer from the actual game itself where these pieces work to produce a coherent playing experience that holds its ground today just as well. But we can't deny that this layer exists and was part of the awesome for us.

Ah I see, well in fact maybe just last week I would have been tempted to think the same, and then I ran into those videos I was bringing up of younger players playing Hollywood Holocaust seemingly for the first time and they were blown away by all the little tricks that worked on us back in the day, from the mirror to (and especially) the working cinema. At the sight of the latter, one of the guys even let out 'wow, now that's what you call a real, good video game' all the while looking like the profile to have grown up on the Xbox and Wii (I'm guilty of pure assumption here though) and yet they were finding such features groundbreaking despite all the advancements in tech since. Watching those reactions really changed my mind a bit on the matter.

MrFlibble, on 06 May 2021 - 07:00 AM, said:

You're right, but at the same time, those little bits are essential to Duke's identity as a game, if not as a character.

Even as we know that all the talk about how Duke is "inappropriate" as a character is nothing but media BS, such talk would not exist if it weren't for all the risque stuff in the game.

It's not really easy to take any game or character apart and filter out the subjective personal experience that was tied to a particular time. Thankfully, Nintendo at least showed us that Duke remains himself even without pixellated boobs and seedy bars.

The Nintendo example is a good demonstration that maybe some bits are more important than others, for instance even back in the 90's I'm willing to bet that most people (global audiences considered) had no idea of, say, the O.J. Simpson car chase reference (as an example of a contemporary one that's likely to go over the younger people's heads) and yet it still looks like they enjoyed Duke 3D equally to those who had grasped it - or arguably in fact they didn't, just by a tiny extent? Yet a lot of those people still loved the game hard enough to then go and make user maps for it, and so I don't see a real difference. While that Easter egg and a few others were technically part of the game, missing its grasp didn't really get in the way of its qualities in a significant manner, and probably still doesn't, like detail in a bigger picture - it's there and it counts amidst the whole, but it's not necessarily crucial just in itself. The risqué stuff is something different entirely, and more inherently part of the background and tone of the game indeed (it's part of the direct and indirect storytelling), although I really was never surprised by the negative reactions Duke 3D got, in 1996 games were getting pseudo-realistic and so the newly recognizable violence in general was getting a lot of backlash (think Doom), the subject was too modern for society in general to know how to handle yet and so a lot of bullshit went down - I feel like it really wasn't rare at the time to see video games demonized for this or that funny reason someone would pull out of a hat, pixelated boobs is just an easy one, accusing the game designers of encouraging child murder altogether because one of the secret rooms host a Commander Keen Easter egg is almost prize worthy.

But yeah, the evolution of the reception of this game throughout the eras is a bit of a trip. Every day I'm actually amazed the community is still that big, still getting fresh blood on the regular and we live in an time period where we Duke 3D mappers may or may not be the last people on Earth ever left to care about where phone booths fit space the best.

And then of course you are very right on the topic of subjectivity, although that obviously applies to everything there really is to appreciate. That reminds me of one friend I have who's super into the Unreal engine and seems to enjoy jokingly shitting on me for being into Duke 3D mapping every now and then - in his case and judging by his comments, it's clear to me that his opinion on the technology, tone and art style is what it is, and yet when Duke 3D came out on the Switch he still bought it the very release day, 'because it's [still] a good game'.

[Ninety-Six]

MrFlibble, on 06 May 2021 - 07:00 AM, said:

Thankfully, Nintendo at least showed us that Duke remains himself even without pixellated boobs and seedy bars.

Though in a bit that I will never not find hilarious, they replaced the sex with far more graphic violence than was ever in the original. My favorite is the unfortunate naked babe dangling down from the ceiling. What is it in Duke64? She's dead and her lower body has been completely torn off, spine dangling out the back like toothpaste left at the edge of the bottle. It's in far more graphic detail than even Doom's vivisected humans. Speaking of, I also like how they replaced the mere implication of the literal dog meat in Duke Burger with half-men on meathooks, again in far greater detail than anything in Doom.


I know the reasons for both, and it's an even funnier reflection of western culture on the whole, but that observation has been made time and time again.

Doesn't make it any less funny though.

[Aleks]

Quote

[...]we live in an time period where we Duke 3D mappers may or may not be the last people on Earth ever left to care about where phone booths fit space the best.

Just wanted to say, I fucking love this quote

[Danukem]

Ninety-Six, on 06 May 2021 - 09:23 AM, said:

I know the reasons for both, and it's an even funnier reflection of western culture on the whole, but that observation has been made time and time again.

It is, but I also suspect that the devs were bristling at being forced to censor the game and were deliberately making up for it by adding extra gore as a kind of protest. To highlight the absurdity, on purpose. That's what I (like to think I) would have done in their position.

[Ninety-Six]

Danukem, on 06 May 2021 - 12:48 PM, said:

It is, but I also suspect that the devs were bristling at being forced to censor the game and were deliberately making up for it by adding extra gore as a kind of protest. To highlight the absurdity, on purpose. That's what I (like to think I) would have done in their position.

I always kinda got the same impression, myself. Pretty sure they'd be far from the first to do so, too.

[High Treason]

Without reading back too far, this is about the N64 port right? I have a funny feeling Nintendo's policy on blood was absolute - as in, it wouldn't matter how much you actually had and merely having any at all would be handled the same.

I still maintain that the N64 port is the best console port of the game from the time.

[MrFlibble]

ck3D, on 06 May 2021 - 09:02 AM, said:

Ah I see, well in fact maybe just last week I would have been tempted to think the same, and then I ran into those videos I was bringing up of younger players playing Hollywood Holocaust seemingly for the first time and they were blown away by all the little tricks that worked on us back in the day, from the mirror to (and especially) the working cinema. At the sight of the latter, one of the guys even let out 'wow, now that's what you call a real, good video game' all the while looking like the profile to have grown up on the Xbox and Wii (I'm guilty of pure assumption here though) and yet they were finding such features groundbreaking despite all the advancements in tech since. Watching those reactions really changed my mind a bit on the matter.

That sounds very reassuring! Could you share the video link?

ck3D, on 06 May 2021 - 09:02 AM, said:

The Nintendo example is a good demonstration that maybe some bits are more important than others, for instance even back in the 90's I'm willing to bet that most people (global audiences considered) had no idea of, say, the O.J. Simpson car chase reference (as an example of a contemporary one that's likely to go over the younger people's heads) and yet it still looks like they enjoyed Duke 3D equally to those who had grasped it - or arguably in fact they didn't, just by a tiny extent?

Yes, I'm one of those people who were not aware of the O.J. Simpson reference. In fact, when I first read about it in a Duke3D FAQ sometime in mid-2000s, my first idea was that the FAQ's author was overstretching a bit -- even though by then I had some general idea of the O.J. Simpson case. I'm fairly certain that it was not that widely covered outside the US at all, certainly not the car chase part.

I guess I generally missed a lot of references, some I'd never find out about on my own. But I think I myself mentioned this before in another discussion that those little bits do not directly translate into the enjoyment of gameplay, and Duke's character remains relatable for the most part without them.

ck3D, on 06 May 2021 - 09:02 AM, said:

But yeah, the evolution of the reception of this game throughout the eras is a bit of a trip. Every day I'm actually amazed the community is still that big, still getting fresh blood on the regular and we live in an time period where we Duke 3D mappers may or may not be the last people on Earth ever left to care about where phone booths fit space the best.

And then of course you are very right on the topic of subjectivity, although that obviously applies to everything there really is to appreciate. That reminds me of one friend I have who's super into the Unreal engine and seems to enjoy jokingly shitting on me for being into Duke 3D mapping every now and then - in his case and judging by his comments, it's clear to me that his opinion on the technology, tone and art style is what it is, and yet when Duke 3D came out on the Switch he still bought it the very release day, 'because it's [still] a good game'.

It's still somewhat of a mystery to me why people (including myself) choose one game over another, and keep returning to some titles rather than others. Certainly replay value also plays a part and Duke3D here shines both on its own and even more so thanks to the wealth of community content.

But then again there are some games which had more or less dedicated communities that appear to have been thriving, yet at some point just dissipated, like Abuse/fRaBs, or Flight Sim Toolkit. Maybe those were too niche, but after a period of intense interest people just moved on to other things, apparently. Of course one might assume that in those cases, the respective games/tools were pushed to their natural limits after which no more breakthroughs were expected, and/or something similar but better came their way. It's still astonishing how a lot of intense effort may be spent on something but then interest gradually cools off, but I guess that's how human brain works.

Thankfully FPS titles generally show more versatility in this respect, especially if open source, and we need not go far to find more examples. BTW, I wonder how Shadow Warrior is going to fare now that we have VoidSW and the original game is basically freeware. It's been mentioned several times that Duke3D has, compared to other Build games, the advantage of more "context-free" art assets that may be used to create almost any setting in a level even without resorting to additional art. With plenty of Duke3D user content to make a case in point, perhaps it would be an interesting experiment if more SW maps were made that would go outside the usual setting of the game.

[ck3D]

MrFlibble, on 07 May 2021 - 10:42 AM, said:

That sounds very reassuring! Could you share the video link?

Of course, here are the two videos I was referring to, I was hesitant about their interest on here since the commentary is in French but I think the first guy's reaction at 10:21 transcends all language barriers:

[Danukem]

MrFlibble, on 07 May 2021 - 10:42 AM, said:

Yes, I'm one of those people who were not aware of the O.J. Simpson reference. In fact, when I first read about it in a Duke3D FAQ sometime in mid-2000s, my first idea was that the FAQ's author was overstretching a bit -- even though by then I had some general idea of the O.J. Simpson case. I'm fairly certain that it was not that widely covered outside the US at all, certainly not the car chase part.

For those of us who watched the "chase" on live television, that particular shot that is looped in Duke 3D is very recognizeable, even down to the exact camera angle from the helicopter. It was also funny to me when I saw that in Duke in '96 because my family had the same kind of car (although ours was a Bronco II, he had a white Bronco)

[Aristotle Gumball]

My first OJ reference was this:


I also didn't get it.

[Ninety-Six]

MrFlibble, on 07 May 2021 - 10:42 AM, said:

I guess I generally missed a lot of references, some I'd never find out about on my own. But I think I myself mentioned this before in another discussion that those little bits do not directly translate into the enjoyment of gameplay, and Duke's character remains relatable for the most part without them.

I strongly agree, here. I'm someone who barely watches movies, so I miss about 90% of all the references. Most of the ones I know I got from reading random trivia websites. And yet, Duke3D remains my favorite FPS of all time and I still enjoy just about every second of it.

MrFlibble, on 07 May 2021 - 10:42 AM, said:

It's still somewhat of a mystery to me why people (including myself) choose one game over another, and keep returning to some titles rather than others. Certainly replay value also plays a part and Duke3D here shines both on its own and even more so thanks to the wealth of community content.

But then again there are some games which had more or less dedicated communities that appear to have been thriving, yet at some point just dissipated, like Abuse/fRaBs, or Flight Sim Toolkit. Maybe those were too niche, but after a period of intense interest people just moved on to other things, apparently. Of course one might assume that in those cases, the respective games/tools were pushed to their natural limits after which no more breakthroughs were expected, and/or something similar but better came their way. It's still astonishing how a lot of intense effort may be spent on something but then interest gradually cools off, but I guess that's how human brain works.

Thankfully FPS titles generally show more versatility in this respect, especially if open source, and we need not go far to find more examples.

Activity tends to come in waves with games that have communities still around after the peak early years. That said, FPS games do tend to be the ones that have said waves instead of dying completely. I'd wager part of that is due to the entire first-person thing, since exploring places you could never otherwise be through a simulation of your own eyes is something that has innate appeal in it, I think.

The tools available also probably help significantly. Pretty sure the reason a lot of these older FPSes still have a modding community at all is a result of their engines, and 2+ decades worth of documentation and fan-improved tools that surpass the originals. And even in true 3D engines like Quake, GldSrc and Source, the tools are still accessible enough for an end-user to play with.


It also helps that a lot of the games with still-active modding communities were major strides in the developments of gaming, or at the very least were very popular and made a huge splash.

[William Beavis]

Immanuel Cunt, on 07 May 2021 - 01:08 PM, said:

My first OJ reference was this:


I also didn't get it.

OK Stimpson? Sounds about as subtle as a knife to the throat

[jkas789]

Quote

Yes, I'm one of those people who were not aware of the O.J. Simpson reference. In fact, when I first read about it in a Duke3D FAQ sometime in mid-2000s, my first idea was that the FAQ's author was overstretching a bit -- even though by then I had some general idea of the O.J. Simpson case. I'm fairly certain that it was not that widely covered outside the US at all, certainly not the car chase part.

I guess I generally missed a lot of references, some I'd never find out about on my own. But I think I myself mentioned this before in another discussion that those little bits do not directly translate into the enjoyment of gameplay, and Duke's character remains relatable for the most part without them.

To be honest, as a mexican I did not even know who OJ Simpson was. I don't really even know to this day technically. I know he was an actor (I think?) and there was a police chase. And that's it.

In regards to the videos posted by ck3D posted, I don't speak baguette. However I can't help but notice that both videos are about the Switch version

Duke Nukem 3D: 20th anniv World Tour edition Switch port supremacy bitches!

Spoiler

as if that was something to be proud about lol

[ck3D]

^ The Switch port is whatever it is (personally I wouldn't know since I've never directly played it, why would I when I already have the OG game on PC), but it definitely played a big role in the democratization of Duke 3D and introducing it to newer audiences, that's for certain given the peak of Duke 3D-related videos being posted on YouTube after it came out compared to before. It's been instrumental in the renewal of a whole generation of Duke 3D players. Ideally the IP owners would have surfed that wave before it died down, but as far as I'm concerned I don't really care as long memories were refreshed and it drew more young blood towards the scene.

[Aristotle Gumball]

William Beavis, on 07 May 2021 - 05:14 PM, said:

OK Stimpson? Sounds about as subtle as a knife to the throat

Description in the game:
"He seems a friendly kind of guy, but appearances can deceive, and the way he guns that 4x4 along you’d think he was on the run!"

Yeah, he didn't make a return in any of the sequels, lol. Devs YOLO'd their shit in the 90s.

[MrFlibble]

Ninety-Six, on 07 May 2021 - 03:31 PM, said:

FPS games do tend to be the ones that have said waves instead of dying completely. I'd wager part of that is due to the entire first-person thing, since exploring places you could never otherwise be through a simulation of your own eyes is something that has innate appeal in it, I think.

It's also worth noting that FPS, or generally 2.5D/3D games with a protagonist, usually have a lot more flexible boundaries to what a user might create, compared to many other game types. A while ago I took a Wayback Machine trip over Warcraft II fansites from the 90s - and Warcraft II was by no means less popular than Doom or Duke3D back then; PC Gamer even had a section for PUDs (Warcraft II user maps) alongside one for Doom WADs - and I discovered loads of maps and custom campaigns. My favourite, at least in concept, is a map by a user aptly named Picasso which recreates the Warcraft II box art. But still the limitations of what you can do with the Warcraft II map editor are a lot more strict, while a 3D first-person game can be modded into virtually anything, even if you don't touch the hard-coded parts.

[Jimmy]

Danukem, on 07 May 2021 - 12:12 PM, said:

For those of us who watched the "chase" on live television, that particular shot that is looped in Duke 3D is very recognizeable, even down to the exact camera angle from the helicopter. It was also funny to me when I saw that in Duke in '96 because my family had the same kind of car (although ours was a Bronco II, he had a white Bronco)

If you were an American in the early 90s the OJ case was inescapable.

[jkas789]

ck3D, on 08 May 2021 - 12:52 AM, said:

^ The Switch port is whatever it is (personally I wouldn't know since I've never directly played it, why would I when I already have the OG game on PC),

If you ever meet someone with a Nintendo Switch who has the game you should definitely give it a shot. If nothing else for the morbid curiosity because the port is way better than it has any right to be. It would be the definite way to experience Duke Nukem 3D: 20th Anniversary World Tour if it wasn't for:

1) the fact that sourceports have made progress in running this version of the game (Stopgap, Raze, BuildGDX)

&

2) No user maps are playable on the Switch port.

[ck3D]

jkas789, on 09 May 2021 - 09:13 PM, said:

If you ever meet someone with a Nintendo Switch who has the game you should definitely give it a shot. If nothing else for the morbid curiosity because the port is way better than it has any right to be. It would be the definite way to experience Duke Nukem 3D: 20th Anniversary World Tour if it wasn't for:

1) the fact that sourceports have made progress in running this version of the game (Stopgap, Raze, BuildGDX)

&

2) No user maps are playable on the Switch port.

I do have a Switch I haven't touched in three years, as well as friends with Switches who also bought the game, so I've considered getting it before but since 1/ absolutely all my video game time already goes into PC Duke 3D mapping and 2/ user maps aren't supported on the Switch, in my case that would really be redundant and actually less practical for me than naturally sticking to PC like I always did. Also, ethically I refuse to support a product with oversights in quality so bad that the last boss of the game is so lazy it's literally broken; that's more of a World Tour- and not port-specific problem but still, how imbecile do you really think your customers are when such crucial aspects of your product are overlooked and handled as such a joke; I've said it before but IMO just that broken boss is spitting in the face of not just the average player but also, and especially, the work of everyone else on the team who took their job seriously, as well as the original game you're attempting to 'honor the legacy of' with an anniversary re-release. World Tour has its qualities but I could never get myself to purchase it for that reason alone. I would much rather directly PayPal my few bucks to each level designer and individual artist who actually tried.

However and like I was saying, I really do respect the existence of the Switch port per se as I find that it did have a considerable impact on general awareness regarding Duke 3D in contemporary times. Tons of new faces have been joining the community or starting mapping or just enjoying the game since it dropped.

[Ninety-Six]

That's one of the few good things WT can claim to have done.