[NNC]

Can I get a syllabus from the tldr bullshit you guys wrote above? I'm pretty sure it's interesting, but I'm lazy now.

[NNC]

Jimmy, on 02 April 2021 - 08:55 PM, said:

This thread is proof that some people tie video games they played as children into defining personality traits, manifesting bizarre emotional behaviours about things they should just not give a fuck about.

Duke is dead.

This is actually a good thing, and you should accept it.

JSJ is a common cocksucker, and I mostly take offense to him thinking he is some kind of authority on the character. He is just a paid voice actor, who hasn't even been doing the voice correctly for 25~ years. I don't give a fuck what anyone says; Objectively, George Broussard is the pre-eminent authority on Duke Nukem as a character.

As an aside, Serious Sam could "fill that hole" but Croteam just likes making shitty games apparently.

I think Allen Blum deserves the authority status. He created the character and kept with it from the get go to its decline.

[Jimmy]

The missing element from DNF is Broussard. The most prominent element is Blum.

What you can see in DNF is that while the level design has "Duke's DNA", literally nothing else does.

[OpenMaw]

ck3D, on 02 April 2021 - 08:20 AM, said:

I think it might actually be what I called it really, the expectation being how you expect him to be a good person (according to your idea of a good person, which you don't have to justify standing by) except as people have been saying, his only personal contribution to the Duke IP has been his voice acting which I'm not saying isn't important or tied to the character, but remains a form of acting, so I think you do need the dissociation between the work and the artist. People say never meet your heroes, I'd rather say always meet your heroes because that's when you realize you really wasted your time forming an idealized version of the person in your head (sort of like catching oneitis, the representation could be almost religious even) and thus should never have had heroes in the first place, and it doesn't matter how many interactions you've had with them before where you just so happened to click. No one is a hero per se, sometimes people do great things but all have different human limitations and the inspiration you get from acts you appreciate shouldn't go with personal attachment or identification to their authors. Also as people have once again been saying, the most sincere artists don't directly create for the fans, they create for themselves first and foremost which may sound selfish when put like that but really has to do with them making sure their vision accurately translates over into their work in order to successfully communicate their ideas to the masses, who then benefit from the quality of said work and so that's when the originally selfish drive becomes in fact purely generous and altruistic and shines as such. Some artists may get popularity but that's never the drive of the best, only of the weakest who usually quickly either surrender to the market's latest tendencies, or lose themselves to the expectations from their fans when they forget the original source of their genius. As for Jon St. Jon, you may place him wherever you see fit on that scale, but it's very plausible that he may be a hostile asshole to fans yes, in fact why wouldn't he be (or not be), and why would he be (or not be) particularly smart or social? That's it, sometimes people suck or at least clash against our own sensibilities - so it makes sense that you shouldn't expect them not to.

I agree and disagree.

For one, nearly every artist becomes an artist because they want to be recognized for their work. Particularly writers and actors. The gratification of a roaring crowd is the whole point for a lot of people in the entertainment industry. Just look at how so many of the actors in Hollywood acted during the COVID initial outbreak... "LOOK AT ME. Look how important I am. Watch us sing and dance, we must be in the limelight!"

Ego is a big part of that entire aspect of our culture. Yes, there are many artists who create art for their own sake. That I won't argue. All the stuff I make, I generally make it for me and nobody else. I have, however, made posts probing to hear what other people think about certain things. At least then I know the lay of the land..

As to Jon, It's not a question of where I put him or what expectations I have. It's not a debate over what he did, does, will do. He's a huge asshole. That's a fact. He had a blow out on twitter not too long ago and people told him to calm down and he basically shouted back like a child "FINE!" How else, can you see any of that, exactly?

Yes, it's true that 9 times out of 10 the artist and the art should, and can, be separated. However, when you're talking specifically a performer who has profited because the fans have been some of the most loyal and hardcore fans you can name. Decades of supporting and waiting. People who went from childhood to adult with you. Understood your frustrations being a voice actor, tried to help anyway they could, and you then turn around and piss on them? Call them trolls, call them idiots, tell them to shut the fuck up, Tell an innocent fan who literally just wanted to tell you how much she loved your work and wanted an autograph of her favorite character to literally "get the fuck out of the line." Yeah. I can't support that.

Let's be real, nobody thinks "Joe Siegler" when they talk about Duke Nukem. It's Jon St John. His voice. "Balls of Steel!" Jon is the most forward facing aspect of Duke's creation. From 1996 to present. This isn't like James Bond, Holmes, Dr. Who, where we have dozens of performers and people can choose their favorites. Jon is Duke's persona. Without Jon, it is very likely that Duke Nukem 3D would be, though successful, not have been so highly regarded. Maybe I'm wrong. That's how closely tied to the character he is in my view.

So, when he goes out in public and starts trashing fans because they ask a question, or they disagree (usually politely) with his position, they are shouted down, blocked, and called trolls. This is not someone that needs my money. I can find other artists out there to take my money. Other characters in other games can get my support. I've never seen Tom Hall, John Romero, George Broussard, Joe Siegler, John Carmack, Tom Hall, Adrian Carmack, John Galt, Stephen Weyte, any of the Voidpoint people, etc... Act in the way that Jon does routinely. None. Because this is what happens when you interact with your audience like that. You disenfranchise them, which hurts your bottom line. You're not going to reach/reclaim success with that approach.

Being confident, assertive, assured, etc... None of this requires that you be outright hostile to the very people who are out there cheering you on.

Let me also be clear that Jon wasn't always like this. For years this dude wished me and other close fans happy birthday. I sent him an email once and asked if he could do a little voice line for me as a cameo. He did two versions for me and asked me if they were good and to just let him know if I needed anymore.

That was 11-12 years ago. The dude changed when he got a divorce. He started on a hostile path, and he only got worse when Trump was elected.

My mom hated Obama. Hated. Obama. Now I was not a fan of him, I didn't like his policies. I thought he handled our overseas situations terrible, I thought his handling of the border crisis was awful... But with mom, it was anytime he even breathed "What a piece of shit!" Just no budging, no discussion. That's how Jon was with Trump. I get it. He wasn't for everybody. A lot of people hated the way he behaved, the things he said. Fine, fair enough. The problem is when you try to have any sort of an intelligent discussion at all about that and it breaks down to such a degree that, in Jon's case anyone who supports Trump in any way, or even dares to simply play Devil's Advocate, is immediately "a Nazi." How can you get passed that tension inside the community and have, fun, civil discussions? Especially when Jon himself is the one framing all of his conversations around it.

Jon made a post one time saying what Duke needed was a politically correct sjw-sensitive character to "correct" him. Several people came on there and responded basically with "only if this character was treated like "Sam" from Evil Dead Regeneration." That is, every time he opened his mouth, Duke put a foot in it. Jon didn't like t hat. Two people were banned from his page on that one.

MrFlibble, on 02 April 2021 - 08:29 AM, said:

If you asked me, I'd probably say that Serious Sam is different because the gameplay is entirely different, even though the first game was pitched as a return-to-the-roots, classic old school FPS style. Maybe this kind of holds true compared to a certain style of Doom WADs, but not to Duke3D.

Agreed, but they clearly patented Sam himself after Duke, right down to the borderline plagiarized boxart of Sam for First Encounter. His face is clearly "inspired" by the Zero Hour Duke. I know, I know, Duke aped Army of Darkness, that's not my point. They were definitely going for the same design. A muscle bound hero with glasses, fighting an alien invasion, and saying funny things. That's who Sam is at the end of the day, and it's actually amazing how many times, particularly in Serious Sam 2, that they reference Duke Nukem, and DNF, directly.

MrFlibble, on 02 April 2021 - 08:29 AM, said:

I'd like to hear more on your ideas and understanding of the character in general. To me, gameplay is very closely tied to the character -- after all, gameplay here is what the character does, and actions define the character. In this respect, Shelly from Ion Fury is very much in the same boat as Duke, Lo Wang and Caleb.

True, they're all in the same "roster" as Duke, but it's like having different flavors of ice cream. The way Blood and Shadow Warrior play are quite different to Duke 3D. I'd say Ion Fury is the closest. Still, I think my "Metal" vs "Grunge" metaphor explains the nature of the differences.

MrFlibble, on 02 April 2021 - 08:29 AM, said:

I do however remember the charm of Duke's casual reactions to the extreme circumstances he's thrown into, and to what he's pressed to do while fighting the aliens. I wanted to say that Arnold seems like the chief inspiration here but I guess other iconic actors like Stallone or Clint Eastwood also went into that mould. This is likely the part which is not easy to replicate without being accused of plagiarism, and any other alternative, whichever it is, would inevitably be different. Yet of course Duke is not the only type of what a charming 90s style FPS character could be.

Exactly. Duke as a character has tremendous utility, which sets him apart from the others. Even Shelly. Shelly, in her two outings, is locked into a particular tone and narrative. Caleb doesn't really have the capacity to escape from his world, same for Wang. Duke has gone places and done things. His enemies are numerous. Aliens, mutants, robots, crazed mad scientists. Time travel, space travel. The past, the present, the future. Duke is responsible for killing Jack The Ripper. Duke's character design affords him the ability to do all of those things. Caleb is primarily a horror movie character. Shelly is primarily of a cyber-punk dystopia, Wang is stuck in his realm of Asian action movie clichés.

Duke is the only one that can really effortlessly escape and do other things and do it successfully. His ability to shift genre/sub-genre really sets him apart. When you actually look at Duke's library of games you can see he's even stepped into Caleb and Wang's world with the Zombie/horror elements in Zero Hour, and the Chinatown sections of Duke Nukem Manhattan Project.

Another example, "Tritium."

Spoiler

I was designing a character for a project code named "Tritium" which is one of the three I mentioned previously. The lead character of course taking inspiration from Duke, trying to come up with a fresh take on those concepts, and every take I had felt lame. It was weak sauce. Some might say I'm just too hard on myself or I have too much doubt, but no... When it clicks for me I really know where to take it.

My wife says "What if you changed the point of inspiration from Schwarzenegger and all those guys to Wesley Snipes and Denzel Washington?" So I changed the design around and I started to get something I like. Pieces immediately started to lay out. The musical tone being a mix of old school hip-hop and rock with a peppering of John Carpenter. The tone of his voice coming from the character "D'argo" from Farscape. The character design being mostly urban-warfare inspired with a dark purple t-shirt and a vest over the top. Cargo/military pants with all kinds of kit. A tattoo on his back that says "Just the tip. I promise." with a bullet flying across. He wears glasses like Duke and Sam, but his come ready for purpose. Built in image enhancement, they wi-fi into his eyes/brain and give him his HUD.

I was outside at night, cleaning up some stuff and the enemies started to take shape in my head. I didn't want to just do "aliens" because, again, that's like copy and pasting Duke. So I wanted to come up with something that felt similar, but was not exactly the same. So the aliens aren't "aliens" per se, but creatures literally tearing holes in reality. I had gone on YouTube and was listening to clips from Art Bell, and the infamous "Frantic Caller" segment came up. So there came the other piece. The aliens don't invade in ships, they tear holes in reality and spill out.

I envisioned a shot in the trailer showing a dark alley where you see the side of a brick building, individual bricks start to push out of the wall and this black oily shape forms, almost pouring out like a liquid or a gel. Reflective, wet looking. It forms into like a dark crack, almost like a Portal as rendered by Clive Barker. Out of the shape you see a three fingered hand followed by a really long lanky arm (think War of the Worlds).

This started to influence a unique array of weapons, and some of the core combat loops. Having to locate and close the portals as enemies sporadically come out of them. Since the focus was to create an industrial-urban environment with a grit, constant rain fall, etc... The idea then followed that the creatures might be sensitive to light, and so the weapons would be a mixture of things dealing with light, radiation, etc. Pistol that fires phosphorous-charged bullets. Souped up flashbangs. Grenade launcher with high-ex rounds that set the enemies on fire and melt them away. Some kind of a weapon that focuses solar radiation into a beam. A weapon utilizing mirrors to create a sapper-type trap.

Then the name "Tritium" I thought might be a reference to an MIB organization that the main character works for. Dealing with paranormal and invasive threats like this. On and on it went. Started with my wife basically saying "What if you made Duke a black guy instead of a white guy?" Which might seem like an easy thought, but the big thing I've always had against race or gender bending a concept is to not just do it for the tokenism. That is how you end up with absolutely terrible, shallow, uninteresting characters.

Not long after that I created the thread here about the various niche's that the Build engine didn't ever touch, and to my surprise there was talk about Blade. Which really reinforced the direction I was going with that. Just thinking about Blade in the context of a Build Engine game got me really excited, and that excitement channeled into Tritium. Even though it wasn't exactly like Blade, the few similar touch stones, like reference Wesley Snipes, cemented it for me.

Fox, on 03 April 2021 - 09:43 AM, said:

Are you going to boycott Ion Fury too? Jon St John also works as an voice actor there.

I purchased Ion Fury before the fallout with Jon. So, no. I almost boycotted it because of Scott Miller's bullshit, and I wasn't alone in that choice, because he was starting down a really stupid hypocritical path. Roger, Scott Searle, and myself all called him out on his bullshit, and he began blocking us.

All we did was point out to him that it was a little late in the career game to be concerned with hurting peoples fee-fees with some silly jokes in Ion Fury when he had already taken shots at Christians in Duke 3D and seemingly let a "Who wants to be a Tranny?" Joke slide through in Manhattan Project. He had no rebuttle, no reply. He just blocked us for it. I admit that took me by surprise, because for years I had known Scott to be a fairly reasonable man. We used to debate with Terry Nagy on a whole bunch of things like GMO's, gun control, Paleo diet, etc.. His arguments always seemed reasonable, even if I didn't agree with them.

The only reason Ion Fury is an exception is because I know that the guys here who worked their asses off on it deserve the recognition, and Jon isn't front and center. He's an ancillary character who, hopefully, Shelly can grow beyond and do other things in the future. He's not the lynch pin to the character, or the franchise. That is why Ion Fury gets my money.

Oh, he tried to join The Duke Cave. his approval has been sitting in the que for a long long time. Nope.

Jimmy, on 02 April 2021 - 08:55 PM, said:

This thread is proof that some people tie video games they played as children into defining personality traits, manifesting bizarre emotional behaviours about things they should just not give a fuck about.

Duke is dead.

This is actually a good thing, and you should accept it.

Yes, Duke is dead, I titled the thread that for a reason. What remains are the memories and the good games that are now 2+ decades old.

Granted I didn't know him as well as many people I know, but he was a friend for years. We did talk on occasion. He did do stuff for me free of charge. He commented on my shit. I was badly burned a few years ago on my mouth, and both he and Lani Manilla were kind enough to leave me good wishes. He liked Duke Nukem The Series and even gave Vinny and I feedback.

People seem to have this notion, even though I've said otherwise repeatedly, that I said some shit about Trump, he said some shit about Trump, and we both exploded and that was the beginning and the end of our personal interactions. It wasn't. I wish it was, because it wouldn't have honestly hurt as much. Okay, he's a dick. I would have made no investment into him as a person.

But I did. He was just there for years, and now? That cool dude is gone. He used to be approachable, funny, warm. All that shit switched off.

Jimmy, on 02 April 2021 - 08:55 PM, said:

JSJ is a common cocksucker, and I mostly take offense to him thinking he is some kind of authority on the character. He is just a paid voice actor, who hasn't even been doing the voice correctly for 25~ years. I don't give a fuck what anyone says; Objectively, George Broussard is the pre-eminent authority on Duke Nukem as a character.

As an aside, Serious Sam could "fill that hole" but Croteam just likes making shitty games apparently.

George is the key to the core of the character and the man who vanguarded his creative cohesion and stability from 96 to 2008. Jon was the face. He was the most visible person involved. He was the guy that was heard every time you play the game. That's the difference.

Ya know, I have to ask, what about Greg Malone? Dude was the director of Duke 3D was he not? Nobody ever talks about him and I betcha he's one of those quiet people we've been talking about in this very thread.

I actually agree with what you're saying, for the most part, but there is a nugget of doublespeak here.

On the one hand you take issue with me having an emotional response to Jon because he's a common cock sucker, and why bother? Then, on the other hand, you take offense at his position that he is an authority on the character. Of course this shit dug into me. Why wouldn't it? I get it, it's the internet, and emotions are generally verboten. I got people here telling me his bullshit is fine and it doesn't really stink. So what does he have to do before his shit does stink in a way that matters?

[Aristotle Gumball]

OpenMaw, on 04 April 2021 - 01:34 AM, said:

Let's be real, nobody thinks "Joe Siegler" when they talk about Duke Nukem. It's Jon St John. His voice. "Balls of Steel!" Jon is the most forward facing aspect of Duke's creation. From 1996 to present. This isn't like James Bond, Holmes, Dr. Who, where we have dozens of performers and people can choose their favorites. Jon is Duke's persona. Without Jon, it is very likely that Duke Nukem 3D would be, though successful, not have been so highly regarded. Maybe I'm wrong. That's how closely tied to the character he is in my view.

You realize Jon didn't come up with Duke's voice lines or even his mannerisms, right? It's all ripped off from B movies and the voice is basically Dirty Harry. Now imagine anyone doing a Dirty Harry impression and saying something from They Live or Army of Darkness. You seem a bit nuts and I'm honestly impressed how long you can wax poetic about this subject. It really leads me to believe your game will be great because you've got that near-religious level of fanatical thinking, which people who make great art usually seem to have. Not even kidding; I eagerly await your future projects.

[Phredreeke]

OpenMaw, on 04 April 2021 - 01:34 AM, said:

I purchased Ion Fury before the fallout with Jon. So, no. I almost boycotted it because of Scott Miller's bullshit, and I wasn't alone in that choice, because he was starting down a really stupid hypocritical path. Roger, Scott Searle, and myself all called him out on his bullshit, and he began blocking us.

All we did was point out to him that it was a little late in the career game to be concerned with hurting peoples fee-fees with some silly jokes in Ion Fury when he had already taken shots at Christians in Duke 3D and seemingly let a "Who wants to be a Tranny?" Joke slide through in Manhattan Project. He had no rebuttle, no reply. He just blocked us for it. I admit that took me by surprise, because for years I had known Scott to be a fairly reasonable man. We used to debate with Terry Nagy on a whole bunch of things like GMO's, gun control, Paleo diet, etc.. His arguments always seemed reasonable, even if I didn't agree with them.

What did Scott Miller do?

[MrFlibble]

OpenMaw, on 04 April 2021 - 01:34 AM, said:

Exactly. Duke as a character has tremendous utility, which sets him apart from the others. Even Shelly. Shelly, in her two outings, is locked into a particular tone and narrative. Caleb doesn't really have the capacity to escape from his world, same for Wang. Duke has gone places and done things. His enemies are numerous. Aliens, mutants, robots, crazed mad scientists. Time travel, space travel. The past, the present, the future. Duke is responsible for killing Jack The Ripper. Duke's character design affords him the ability to do all of those things. Caleb is primarily a horror movie character. Shelly is primarily of a cyber-punk dystopia, Wang is stuck in his realm of Asian action movie clichés.

Duke is the only one that can really effortlessly escape and do other things and do it successfully. His ability to shift genre/sub-genre really sets him apart. When you actually look at Duke's library of games you can see he's even stepped into Caleb and Wang's world with the Zombie/horror elements in Zero Hour, and the Chinatown sections of Duke Nukem Manhattan Project.

It also crossed my mind that Duke's appeal at least in part lies in that, as the embodiment of action hero tropes, he's basically invincible and destined to win. We all know that this is a vary lousy thing for any kind of proper fiction story-telling as this setup entirely lacks any character development, but in the context of a video game, this works perfectly because the player is ultimately supposed to win the game.

Compared to other Build characters, personally I can't think of Lo Wang as anything but an odd caricature, even though I do love the game, and even though the developers attempted to give him this revenge plot and actually tried to do some more coherent storytelling through the levels compared with Duke3D. But I guess it falls apart or is at least mitigated because SW tried to walk in so many different directions over the course of its development. As for Caleb, I haven't played a lot of Blood really, but he seems like a creepy anti-hero, and very much bound to his horror environment and narrative.

Come to think of it, Duke is on an equal footing with Doomguy here, who also escaped the bounds of the original story, possibly because this character is effectively invisible and neutral to his environment. You're right about Shelly, and the same goes for the hero in Powerslave (is he officially called Jon/John? I don't remember), as they seem to be quite tied to their respective narratives.

Of course, the fact that the modding scene for both Duke3D and Doom is way larger compared to the other games, played no small part in the freedom and variety of user content and stories about these two characters. But here Duke also had some official content that greatly expanded his universe.

OpenMaw, on 04 April 2021 - 01:34 AM, said:

Another example, "Tritium."

Spoiler

I was designing a character for a project code named "Tritium" which is one of the three I mentioned previously. The lead character of course taking inspiration from Duke, trying to come up with a fresh take on those concepts, and every take I had felt lame. It was weak sauce. Some might say I'm just too hard on myself or I have too much doubt, but no... When it clicks for me I really know where to take it.

My wife says "What if you changed the point of inspiration from Schwarzenegger and all those guys to Wesley Snipes and Denzel Washington?" So I changed the design around and I started to get something I like. Pieces immediately started to lay out. The musical tone being a mix of old school hip-hop and rock with a peppering of John Carpenter. The tone of his voice coming from the character "D'argo" from Farscape. The character design being mostly urban-warfare inspired with a dark purple t-shirt and a vest over the top. Cargo/military pants with all kinds of kit. A tattoo on his back that says "Just the tip. I promise." with a bullet flying across. He wears glasses like Duke and Sam, but his come ready for purpose. Built in image enhancement, they wi-fi into his eyes/brain and give him his HUD.

I was outside at night, cleaning up some stuff and the enemies started to take shape in my head. I didn't want to just do "aliens" because, again, that's like copy and pasting Duke. So I wanted to come up with something that felt similar, but was not exactly the same. So the aliens aren't "aliens" per se, but creatures literally tearing holes in reality. I had gone on YouTube and was listening to clips from Art Bell, and the infamous "Frantic Caller" segment came up. So there came the other piece. The aliens don't invade in ships, they tear holes in reality and spill out.

I envisioned a shot in the trailer showing a dark alley where you see the side of a brick building, individual bricks start to push out of the wall and this black oily shape forms, almost pouring out like a liquid or a gel. Reflective, wet looking. It forms into like a dark crack, almost like a Portal as rendered by Clive Barker. Out of the shape you see a three fingered hand followed by a really long lanky arm (think War of the Worlds).

This started to influence a unique array of weapons, and some of the core combat loops. Having to locate and close the portals as enemies sporadically come out of them. Since the focus was to create an industrial-urban environment with a grit, constant rain fall, etc... The idea then followed that the creatures might be sensitive to light, and so the weapons would be a mixture of things dealing with light, radiation, etc. Pistol that fires phosphorous-charged bullets. Souped up flashbangs. Grenade launcher with high-ex rounds that set the enemies on fire and melt them away. Some kind of a weapon that focuses solar radiation into a beam. A weapon utilizing mirrors to create a sapper-type trap.

Then the name "Tritium" I thought might be a reference to an MIB organization that the main character works for. Dealing with paranormal and invasive threats like this. On and on it went. Started with my wife basically saying "What if you made Duke a black guy instead of a white guy?" Which might seem like an easy thought, but the big thing I've always had against race or gender bending a concept is to not just do it for the tokenism. That is how you end up with absolutely terrible, shallow, uninteresting characters.

Not long after that I created the thread here about the various niche's that the Build engine didn't ever touch, and to my surprise there was talk about Blade. Which really reinforced the direction I was going with that. Just thinking about Blade in the context of a Build Engine game got me really excited, and that excitement channeled into Tritium. Even though it wasn't exactly like Blade, the few similar touch stones, like reference Wesley Snipes, cemented it for me.

I love that! Out of all the suggested Duke-esque concepts that I have read this sounds the most original and fresh. I'd say go for it.

I had this semi-lazy idea of a possible meta-narrative take on the Duke like character. Instead of being a simple knock-off, that character is explicitly a video game character as opposed to fictional hero. I think this could go two ways:

a. the video game character is self-aware (somehow) and makes meta-commentary on what's going on. This might very well turn out lame, but maybe not.

b. the character is controlled by a fictional player, who is either in a virtual reality or dreaming. "Johnny fell asleep while playing his favourite action game Mac Whackem, and now, in his dream world, he is Mac himself, on the quest to rescue Princess Vandaleia from the clutches of Ydnar Drofchtip and his army of shape-shifting Grrrbxx minions" (sorry, couldn't resist).

Again, not very original, but this could be handled as a shout out to some more classic examples of the same kind of story. In retrospect, I believe this could be compared to The Last Action Hero (which I personally think is a very good Arnold movie), maybe I was subconsciously influenced by the concept what I was thinking about these ideas. The drawback of course is that the story is not taken seriously here, although I guess the references could be made in a tasteful and entertaining way.

[OpenMaw]

Immanuel Cunt, on 04 April 2021 - 01:55 AM, said:

You realize Jon didn't come up with Duke's voice lines or even his mannerisms, right? It's all ripped off from B movies and the voice is basically Dirty Harry. Now imagine anyone doing a Dirty Harry impression and saying something from They Live or Army of Darkness. You seem a bit nuts and I'm honestly impressed how long you can wax poetic about this subject. It really leads me to believe your game will be great because you've got that near-religious level of fanatical thinking, which people who make great art usually seem to have. Not even kidding; I eagerly await your future projects.

Sure, but that's entry level Wikipedia bullshit. The kind of thing you'd find in a "Five things you didn't know about" video. Those are just the obvious references. Duke's referenced just about every damn piece of pop culture you can name. Which, combined with Jon's lackluster performance is why Duke seems so stale in DNF. Lack of creative writing lead to a "been there, done that" vibe.

Yes, the story goes Jon was doing like an Arnold voice, and Lani told him to try Dirty Harry instead. George liked that but told him to make it "bigger." So Jon dropped his voice an octave.

I'm not talking about the level of work or effort that any one member put into the game. Clearly everybody else involved put in ten times the work. The end result is what matters in this discussion, and in pop culture the name that sticks out for most people is Jon St John. So when Jon goes out and makes an ass of himself publicly, it has a genuinely toxic backlash for the series.

Phredreeke, on 04 April 2021 - 02:47 AM, said:

What did Scott Miller do?

Whether he was leading the charge or not I can't say for certain, but there were certain jokes in Ion Fury that were post-release on the chopping block because they apparently "slipped by him in testing" (his words.).These were clearly stupid jokes that only a nut would take seriously. Like the Washington Foreskins and the OGAY bottle and all of that. The extreme talk that certain developers would get sent to seminars to be educated on how to be more sensitive, blah blah blah. In summary, it was a political correctness clusterfuck.

Like I said we didn't know whether he was leading the charge on it, but he was definitely in favor of it. There was a big discussion on his facebook page about it. I posted a picture of the church from Death Row and asked "Do you think Christians would be fond of you mocking their religion like this?" and Roger pointed out the tranny joke that had been in Manhattan Project for the better part of two decades. He said nothing in response, just started blocking people. He didn't like having his hypocrisy on display, I guess.

For the record I don't care about the church, Roger doesn't care about the tranny joke, and we don't care about the Ion Fury jokes. Except when it comes to censoring yourself because of social or political pressure. "Ya think maybe some people found the abortion clinic offensive too, Scott?" was another one someone pointed out to him.

If your model is to try and not hurt anyone's feelings with your jokes and gags, you might as well pack it in, because everything in these games is offensive to someone. The fact it has guns and explicit violence upsets a lot of people. The language, the sexual content, all of it offends somebody somewhere. It's not a healthy way to operate.

This did result in some backlash for the game on Steam, with a number of negative reviews going up in response. Which is why I'm fairly certain it was reversed and quieted down real fast. I didn't want the guys at Voidpoint to take a loss, they clearly earned every penny of sales they got and more, but it is important for game, film, series producers to understand that this folding to pressure and censoring, or preemptively censoring to try and avoid upsetting people is not a healthy model. A lot of people are just tired of it. This is one of the reasons those old games hold up so well is the developers were not concerned about that. They were concerned with doing whatever felt natural, right, fun, funny, whatever. They just went for it without sitting there humming and hawing over what might hurt someone's feefees.

MrFlibble, on 04 April 2021 - 04:28 AM, said:

It also crossed my mind that Duke's appeal at least in part lies in that, as the embodiment of action hero tropes, he's basically invincible and destined to win. We all know that this is a vary lousy thing for any kind of proper fiction story-telling as this setup entirely lacks any character development, but in the context of a video game, this works perfectly because the player is ultimately supposed to win the game.

Compared to other Build characters, personally I can't think of Lo Wang as anything but an odd caricature, even though I do love the game, and even though the developers attempted to give him this revenge plot and actually tried to do some more coherent storytelling through the levels compared with Duke3D. But I guess it falls apart or is at least mitigated because SW tried to walk in so many different directions over the course of its development. As for Caleb, I haven't played a lot of Blood really, but he seems like a creepy anti-hero, and very much bound to his horror environment and narrative.

Come to think of it, Duke is on an equal footing with Doomguy here, who also escaped the bounds of the original story, possibly because this character is effectively invisible and neutral to his environment. You're right about Shelly, and the same goes for the hero in Powerslave (is he officially called Jon/John? I don't remember), as they seem to be quite tied to their respective narratives.

Of course, the fact that the modding scene for both Duke3D and Doom is way larger compared to the other games, played no small part in the freedom and variety of user content and stories about these two characters. But here Duke also had some official content that greatly expanded his universe.

Doom has definetely been affored shifts in tone that a lot of other series never have. Between the Classic, the Playstation/N64, Doom 3, and the rebooted/relaunched versions, the series has hit many different tonal notes. Though even Doomguy is still locked into the same narrative. He's still fighting demons.

Of course an important thing to note there is it's just a difference, not a criticism. It's a strength of the Duke character that a lot of other characters simply lack. It works for him, it may not work for others.

MrFlibble, on 04 April 2021 - 04:28 AM, said:

I love that! Out of all the suggested Duke-esque concepts that I have read this sounds the most original and fresh. I'd say go for it.

Once the pieces started to fall into place I was rather giddy about it. Right now it's a question of fleshing out concepts, and getting the nuances down.

MrFlibble, on 04 April 2021 - 04:28 AM, said:

I had this semi-lazy idea of a possible meta-narrative take on the Duke like character. Instead of being a simple knock-off, that character is explicitly a video game character as opposed to fictional hero. I think this could go two ways:

a. the video game character is self-aware (somehow) and makes meta-commentary on what's going on. This might very well turn out lame, but maybe not.

b. the character is controlled by a fictional player, who is either in a virtual reality or dreaming. "Johnny fell asleep while playing his favourite action game Mac Whackem, and now, in his dream world, he is Mac himself, on the quest to rescue Princess Vandaleia from the clutches of Ydnar Drofchtip and his army of shape-shifting Grrrbxx minions" (sorry, couldn't resist).

Again, not very original, but this could be handled as a shout out to some more classic examples of the same kind of story. In retrospect, I believe this could be compared to The Last Action Hero (which I personally think is a very good Arnold movie), maybe I was subconsciously influenced by the concept what I was thinking about these ideas. The drawback of course is that the story is not taken seriously here, although I guess the references could be made in a tasteful and entertaining way.

Last Action Hero is a great movie. I'm a huge sucker.

The self-aware protagonist idea could be taken in a number of ways. Actually one of my first thoughts was Commander Keen, strangely enough. I don't know how many people pick up on the fact that Commander Keen's adventures are all in his imagination and fuse the reality he knows with his imagination.

You could take that into a Deadpool route where the character makes those kinds of remarks to the player, breaking the 4th wall, etc. Or you could swing the pendulum the completely opposite way and make the "Spec Ops :The Line" of boomer shooters. You have a character, a young or adolescent boy who realizes he's in a game and the entire world is basically his. Blasting the baddies, harassing civilians, doing whatever he wants... Then as you're approaching the endgame the twist comes that you've actually been indiscriminately killing actual people who were also transferred into the game, only they got the unlucky draw to be the mooks and NPCs.

Somewhere int he middle you could also go the Wreck it Ralph route. A video game character aware of his video-gameness and it's more of a matter of fact whimsical thing.

There's a lot of avenues to take it down.

[Aristotle Gumball]

OpenMaw, on 04 April 2021 - 07:51 AM, said:

The end result is what matters in this discussion, and in pop culture the name that sticks out for most people is Jon St John. So when Jon goes out and makes an ass of himself publicly, it has a genuinely toxic backlash for the series.

I agree JSJ has an impact, but not as much as the current IP holders.

PS. Dig the game ideas!! Deadpool is also something I brought up here. That is totally a direction I wanna see explored more.

[Phredreeke]

MrFlibble, on 04 April 2021 - 04:28 AM, said:

Of course, the fact that the modding scene for both Duke3D and Doom is way larger compared to the other games, played no small part in the freedom and variety of user content and stories about these two characters.

The Blood modding scene is pretty big as well, not near as big as for Doom but I'd think comparable to Duke. Honestly, due to the difference in scope between projects for Duke vs. projects for Blood I feel we see more new releases for the latter.

OpenMaw, on 04 April 2021 - 07:51 AM, said:

Whether he was leading the charge or not I can't say for certain, but there were certain jokes in Ion Fury that were post-release on the chopping block because they apparently "slipped by him in testing" (his words.).These were clearly stupid jokes that only a nut would take seriously. Like the Washington Foreskins and the OGAY bottle and all of that. The extreme talk that certain developers would get sent to seminars to be educated on how to be more sensitive, blah blah blah. In summary, it was a political correctness clusterfuck.

Ah, so he was part of the anti-OGAY brigade. I had no idea Miller was stil involved with 3DR btw.

[William Beavis]

Immanuel Cunt, on 04 April 2021 - 01:55 AM, said:

You realize Jon didn't come up with Duke's voice lines or even his mannerisms, right? It's all ripped off from B movies and the voice is basically Dirty Harry. Now imagine anyone doing a Dirty Harry impression and saying something from They Live or Army of Darkness. You seem a bit nuts and I'm honestly impressed how long you can wax poetic about this subject. It really leads me to believe your game will be great because you've got that near-religious level of fanatical thinking, which people who make great art usually seem to have. Not even kidding; I eagerly await your future projects.

True, but as with the aforementioned Bond and Dr. Who comparisons, those actors didn't write or create the characters. Nor did they contribute to the script. The same movie with only the lead swapped out can make a gigantic difference. If the Jon St. John had never landed the gig, Duke's entire existence would be greatly altered, even though everything else would remain a constant. Since Jon is the only actor to have portrayed Duke, he is forever synonymous with the role and does a great deal to solidify Duke's identity. You seem to downplay Jon's influence on what we know Duke to be.

[ck3D]

OpenMaw, on 04 April 2021 - 01:34 AM, said:

I agree and disagree.

For one, nearly every artist becomes an artist because they want to be recognized for their work. Particularly writers and actors. The gratification of a roaring crowd is the whole point for a lot of people in the entertainment industry. Just look at how so many of the actors in Hollywood acted during the COVID initial outbreak... "LOOK AT ME. Look how important I am. Watch us sing and dance, we must be in the limelight!"

Ego is a big part of that entire aspect of our culture. Yes, there are many artists who create art for their own sake. That I won't argue. All the stuff I make, I generally make it for me and nobody else. I have, however, made posts probing to hear what other people think about certain things. At least then I know the lay of the land..

Interesting perspective, but I'll strongly disagree on 'nearly every artist' if you let me, and then the egoistical gratification you speak of (and rightfully so, as it is a thing) has more to do with an immature conception of art. The reason why I disagree with the near generalization is I believe everyone naturally is an artist, as in the drive to create is spontaneous and then what makes the difference is how much room individuals allow themselves to cultivate that aspect in their life. And then, out of those people who cultivated creativity to more or less deliberate extents, the ones who are especially sensitive to peer recognition will pursue it (usually the ones with unresolved developmental troubles or inferiority complexes, from my observation) by following the institutional and commercial paths laid out for them, but the rest will still create and so the narcissists are exceptions, they only look like the norm because they make up for the entire visible tip of the iceberg unless one feels like venturing underwater. In fact those people would probably be narcissists regardless of whether their activity was creating or not; you can also bet that a lot of them were drawn to the field at least in part because 'artist' felt like one particularly hip social category to claim whilst on their big dramatic quest for a definition of themselves, and so a big part of their affiliation to the circle really stems from basic identity complexes and nothing as authentic as visceral urges of expression.

There is the ego and there is the self, both can be a drive but personally I feel like the latter is healthier (and more efficient) than the former, creating has everything to do with marking the world a certain way of your own for a certain time and so it's totally possible to do it as a pure means of communication and transmission as opposed to anything more interested. In fact when you starve your ego for it not to interfere with your expression and instead feed the self, your art culminates as your message, despite originally being something purely personal, becomes selfless as in free to vehiculate itself around the community untainted by the stain of your unresolved basic needs. Now personal experiences but also issues shape every individual's mind in a way that defines their art and so obviously, struggles are at the core of creation. But the most primary ones such as concerns of personal validation or income are so common they are redundant and gross, devoid of interest and only get in the way of whatever is left to express of original. The ego is omnipresent but I believe to an extent parasitic.

For the comment on Hollywood actors, I will just send you back to my comment from earlier regarding the front of the pack.

OpenMaw, on 04 April 2021 - 01:34 AM, said:

Let's be real, nobody thinks "Joe Siegler" when they talk about Duke Nukem.

lol, not trolling but I'll be the exception to that rule if it is one (and I guess the status quo says it is). I grew up with Duke Nukem I and II for years before I could play Duke 3D and so "I'M. BACK." is engraved in my memory as the first time I heard Duke spoke. Obviously miles away from a performance as cinematic as Jon St. Jon's, but one that set the character even for Jon St. Jon to later use as a basis I want to believe, it's on the same spectrum of badass.

OpenMaw, on 04 April 2021 - 01:34 AM, said:

So, when he goes out in public and starts trashing fans because they ask a question, or they disagree (usually politely) with his position, they are shouted down, blocked, and called trolls. This is not someone that needs my money. I can find other artists out there to take my money. Other characters in other games can get my support. I've never seen Tom Hall, John Romero, George Broussard, Joe Siegler, John Carmack, Tom Hall, Adrian Carmack, John Galt, Stephen Weyte, any of the Voidpoint people, etc... Act in the way that Jon does routinely. None. Because this is what happens when you interact with your audience like that. You disenfranchise them, which hurts your bottom line. You're not going to reach/reclaim success with that approach.

Of course that makes complete sense and you have all the right in the world to be disappointed in Jon St. Jon for those reasons. However, I think it makes little sense to compare him to completely different individuals whose only common denominator with him is a 'name' in the (some will say retro-)gaming industry, that's a mental construction (and one I wouldn't personally rely on either, to be frank, as I feel like Jon St. Jon is far less renowned to the masses than a lot of the other names you mentioned). Realistically you shouldn't be putting those people on one same boat and expect a set behavior, at the end of the day every person has their different character and functioning and mental universe and quirks, so because some professionals behave a certain way (the appropriate one ethics- and business-wise) doesn't mean you should expect the same from everyone who's also a 'professional'. In fact 'professional' only really bears the meaning that in your field at some point you wanted to become a professional. It's probably never been as obvious as nowadays that the designation really isn't some infaillible indicator of one's inner qualities and so shouldn't be interpreted as a quality stamp. Everyone is a professional at something and lots of people are stupid and/or assholes. Whenever that happens to show, well then it shows.

[Aristotle Gumball]

William Beavis, on 04 April 2021 - 03:39 PM, said:

The same movie with only the lead swapped out can make a gigantic difference.

We're talking about a video game with a few vocal lines recycled over and over (I know DNF has more but who cares about that). A lot of people could've done Jon's voice lines. I'm a fan of the games but I had no idea about any "influence", I don't keep track of what the devs or voice actors do outside of the games they produce. That seems like fanaticism a level beyond most people, even the ones in this thread clearly.

I am not trying to downplay Jon's influence, but I am definitely downplaying what OpenMaw claims his influence to be. I stopped caring after I posted the last reply though. Whatever! Have fun!

[Player Lin]

Phredreeke, on 04 April 2021 - 09:03 AM, said:

Ah, so he was part of the anti-OGAY brigade. I had no idea Miller was stil involved with 3DR btw.

I think he still an "advisor" of new 3DR so no surprised about that.

That political correctness shitfest on IF back then really sucks, I guess they(3DR people) were too scary to get hit by those SJWs or something, but blocking people like that really not a good move, especially they just point something out.


I don't really cared JSJ these years, and after heard about how he did badly treated his fans, that's not good and seem slightly affected how I see the games/characters that he involved...but since I don't care, I should put those shit aside and still try to enjoy the games, because if I let that affected me, that's NOT healthful at all.

[MrFlibble]

Let's ask Clint Basinger to do alternate lines for Duke3D. Simply as a mod for variety's sake, no as a jab at JSJ.

[Jimmy]

It's not a matter of 3DR being "anti-[REDACTED]". Its a matter of these sissy, urbanite, Low T cucks doing whatever their lawyers and marketers tell them to do because at the end of the day, they don't care about art or the resulting product, they just want as many people to consoom as possible. Focus groups have determined that in order to appeal to all consoomers, your product has to be boring.

[William Beavis]

But at least he's humble, guys.

https://twitter.com/...942759872188419

https://twitter.com/...964718819430400

[Outtagum]

Accidental downvote.

[jkas789]

William Beavis: lol.

[LAW]

Duke Nukem is, as someone wrote, a specific and generic character at the same time. I think the Duke's persona isn't the factor explaining the size of the modding community. I think it is more a matter of the art selection. You can create many types of landscapes and different locations with the tile set from Duke or Doom, but you don't have this freedom with Heretic, Blood, Redneck or Powerslave.

Duke Nukem has been a funny character, a cliche of the action movies from the 80s and 90s, but nothing more. Of course I like Duke, but I can't call him an epic character. He is not in the same league as Solid Snake or Ezio Auditore. And I can imagine that some actor could voice Duke Nukem in a better way. I see no point in crying after Jon St John and his stupid behaviour. Deleting posts, blocking people? I have heard about the censorship and hypocrisy on the Duke4.net servers regarding the certain subpage - yet nobody gives a damn.

There is some truth in: "Never meet your heroes". For example, I have helped Ken Silverman a bit. When I needed a small favour, all I got from him was: "I won't do this for you. Do it yourself". Another example was with the author of Playstation Doom's music. He was very nice and talkative. But when asked for a possibility of creating a music track at low cost for the community project, he just stopped responding. Only the money counts.

[William Beavis]

Outtagum, on 10 April 2021 - 05:12 PM, said:

Accidental downvote.

No prob. It's not your fault that the site apparently sets your clicks in stone.

[Kyeb]

William Beavis, on 10 April 2021 - 01:19 PM, said:

But at least he's humble, guys.

https://twitter.com/...942759872188419

https://twitter.com/...964718819430400

Man that is cringe, why even post something like that?

[jkas789]

LAW, on 11 April 2021 - 03:52 AM, said:

I think the Duke's persona isn't the factor explaining the size of the modding community.

Spoiler

cough cough Not according to some people in Doomworld cough cough

[ck3D]

Kyeb, on 11 April 2021 - 11:22 AM, said:

Man that is cringe, why even post something like that?

That entire interaction cracked me up, from A to Z it's like a social haiku to nothing. I'm just not sure if the undertones are dadaist, or straight up kafkian.

[Mortimer]

LAW, on 11 April 2021 - 03:52 AM, said:

Another example was with the author of Playstation Doom's music. He was very nice and talkative. But when asked for a possibility of creating a music track at low cost for the community project, he just stopped responding. Only the money counts.

Really? You got some sources for that? Because I honestly can't believe Aubrey Hodges would be such a piece of shit.

[OpenMaw]

LAW, on 11 April 2021 - 03:52 AM, said:

Duke Nukem is, as someone wrote, a specific and generic character at the same time. I think the Duke's persona isn't the factor explaining the size of the modding community.

I'd agree... for the most part. I don't know when exactly the concept of Duke having a voice was added to the Duke 3D development, but I know it wasn't actually executed until near the end of development. It does seem like the early versions of the game were going without a voiced protagonist, and a lot of the Duke charms are still there, even without the voice.

Duke Nukem 3D was successful because of the gameplay and style. It has a solid identity, and that is what made it work. Jon St John's performance is a great seasoning added on top. However, that is not where his persona and involvement in terms of public relations ends. Jon is the one still capitalizing off of being "The Voice of Duke Nukem" even after everyone else has given up. Think about that.

However I can't agree completely that the persona had no bearing on the success. It clearly did. Just look at Sin, where the mixture wasn't quite right and the series didn't really take off the same way that Duke did. Duke carried hype for over a decade before Forever finally dropped. That's a combination of the success of Duke3D and the success of the Duke Nukem character from that point forward. Something had people waiting to see him come back.

[MrFlibble]

OpenMaw, on 22 April 2021 - 11:27 AM, said:

Jon is the one still capitalizing off of being "The Voice of Duke Nukem" even after everyone else has given up. Think about that.

Maybe he genuinely believes it was his best role ever, the achievement to be proud of for the rest of his life? The character he identified with most?

Certainly this is a plausible assumption, think about Mark Hamill.

[Jimmy]

I mean, Big the Cat ain't paying the bills.

[Ock]

A word from the spirit of Duke Nukem :

 dukes_spirit.mp3 (352.4K)
Number of downloads: 129

[Jimmy]

You're posting cringe