[Dukebot]

I open this thread based on the conversation that was going on on this thread: https://forums.duke4...e-dark-station/ about level design in general. So as @Merlijing suggested

Merlijn, on 19 April 2020 - 03:14 AM, said:

I feel like this topic should get its own thread, it's pretty interesting and useful.
I enjoyed reading that link, ck3d. A lot of those things do apply to DN3D mapping as well.

I create this thread to discuss about anything related to level design and share our knowledge and experience with others about this subject.

Here's the resource apportated by @ck3D, so I put here to do not lose it in the other thread.

ck3D, on 29 November 2019 - 09:25 AM, said:

My wee contribution to the list: https://medium.com/i...gn-e187e45c744c

It's a popular article, nothing veteran mappers should be surprised with or not have figured out by themselves, yet still a great checklist of reminders, translating those over to Duke mapping is a lot of fun and makes one realize at least 95% of user maps for that game fail in at least one of those departments - which sometimes only add to their respective charms, but if anything it's always interesting to consider alternative ways to make a level work.

Still did not have time to read it, as this weekend I am participating at the Ludum Dare 46 Game Jam, but after finishing it, I will take a look to the article.


So, I would like to start the level design discussion asking you guys how do you balance enemies/ammo. Asking this because started to implement gameplay on the map, putting enemies and items, and I would like some advice or guidance on good practices when doing this.

[Perro Seco]

Dukebot, on 19 April 2020 - 07:10 AM, said:

So, I would like to start the level design discussion asking you guys how do you balance enemies/ammo. Asking this because started to implement gameplay on the map, putting enemies and items, and I would like some advice or guidance on good practices when doing this.

I don't know if it's a good idea or not, but this is what I did with my previous maps: place enemies and ammo and then play your own map without finding any secret areas and without picking up those items that you think may be in not very obvious places. If you manage to end the level this way, then maybe the map is well balanced.

[ck3D]

Nice thread, I was just kind of thinking a thread to really centralize this type of advice was lacking these days, not that similar ones haven't been made before but they tend to fall into oblivion after a short while (not even counting all the good posts ever made scattered here and there in random threads) but it's always cool to have some kind of hub to treat as some kind of collective think tank.

As for my way of implementing monster placement, I already have it in my head when I'm designing the areas (since they're supposed to be a battlefield after all, working for this particular purpose first and foremost in a FPS regardless of aesthetics) so it's actually just a technicality for me to implement once the whole map is done - no second thoughts as I already have those every time I visit or revisit the section for months before I actually add enemies and items last minute. Honestly at first I was about to say 'I just go through the whole map the way it's supposed to be visited in Mapster and add the elements accordingly', but actually every new level I start is based on a certain idea, which influences its design around the intended and expected gameplay (which in itself consists in a succession of encounters, situations and actions, or sometimes lack thereof), and not the other way around, so the self-criticism is a constant process. I usually get the balance right the first time around that way, maybe semi-casually playtesting the level after I'm down with each, say, third or quarter of it just to make sure I'm not fucking something up in the progression as it turns out to be playing.

The Watchtower has made some really interesting posts regarding the science of monster placement (although, those were more about enemy types in specific levels), I'd advise you look them up for some extra inspiration for more advanced concepts.

[Dukebot]

Perro Seco, on 19 April 2020 - 08:41 AM, said:

I don't know if it's a good idea or not, but this is what I did with my previous maps: place enemies and ammo and then play your own map without finding any secret areas and without picking up those items that you think may be in not very obvious places. If you manage to end the level this way, then maybe the map is well balanced.

Yeah I think this is pretty good idea. Secret items should be considered a bonus, not a must to complete the level, so I will do that aswell when testing, thanks for the advice .

ck3D, on 19 April 2020 - 09:09 AM, said:

Honestly at first I was about to say 'I just go through the whole map the way it's supposed to be visited in Mapster and add the elements accordingly', but actually every new level I start is based on a certain idea, which influences its design around the intended and expected gameplay (which in itself consists in a succession of encounters, situations and actions, or sometimes lack thereof), and not the other way around, so the self-criticism is a constant process. I usually get the balance right the first time around that way, maybe semi-casually playtesting the level after I'm down with each, say, third or quarter of it just to make sure I'm not fucking something up in the progression as it turns out to be playing.

Thanks for sharing your experience and advice, I understand what you mean. I think that in my map will differ a bit from other maps. The map is open and has lot's of enemies around (I used to love serious sam games and like to put lots of enemies, also for COOP gameplay). In my case it's difficult to manage, as I don't know where the player will go first. I have some "succession of events" but some parts can be played in a very non-linear way. This plus the big groups for enemies makes very easy that the player runs out of ammo. I think it's hard to find a balance as this map will be a BIG battlefield of enemies, I believe that in this type of map it's better to have more ressources than necessary rather than less right? I will try to balance it, but I think I will round up the ammo/supplies to the player fauvour, what do you think about this? Now I am asking for a more concrete advice in the concrete case of my map which has special requeriments.

ck3D, on 19 April 2020 - 09:09 AM, said:

The Watchtower has made some really interesting posts regarding the science of monster placement (although, those were more about enemy types in specific levels), I'd advise you look them up for some extra inspiration for more advanced concepts.

Sorry for my ignorance but I don't know what's the "Watchtower". If you can point that out I will definelty have a look to that.

[Mark]

watchtower is a forum user's name

[Merlijn]

Thanks for opening the topic.
The link CK3D provided is a good read.

Item and enemy placement become harder to manage in an open, non-linear map. I think every mapper struggles with this to some degree (at least I do).
The most obvious thing to do is to have a couple of essential items right on the beaten path to be 100% sure the player doesn't miss those.
(Example: in the Shaky grounds pt 1 the player gets the RPG early on, before entering the big outdoor area. It's absolutely essential to have it and I had to make sure the player didn't miss it).

If that particular bit is secured, you can afford a lot more in the non-linear parts.

Some loose thoughts:

-If you playtest your own map, try a different paths each time and see how it affects the overall experience.

-DN3D enemy types fit certain areas: Pig cops fit urban areas, Octobrains fit murky parts near water etc. So that's something to keep in mind as well.

-In case of DN3D you need to work with the limited AI of the enemies. I like adding strategic stay-puts to make them look smarter than they really are.
For example, you can have 1 battlelord chasing you while a second one stays put on a vantage point. Makes the encounters more challening and interesting.

[ck3D]

Dukebot, on 19 April 2020 - 11:15 AM, said:

Thanks for sharing your experience and advice, I understand what you mean. I think that in my map will differ a bit from other maps. The map is open and has lot's of enemies around (I used to love serious sam games and like to put lots of enemies, also for COOP gameplay). In my case it's difficult to manage, as I don't know where the player will go first. I have some "succession of events" but some parts can be played in a very non-linear way. This plus the big groups for enemies makes very easy that the player runs out of ammo. I think it's hard to find a balance as this map will be a BIG battlefield of enemies, I believe that in this type of map it's better to have more ressources than necessary rather than less right? I will try to balance it, but I think I will round up the ammo/supplies to the player fauvour, what do you think about this? Now I am asking for a more concrete advice in the concrete case of my map which has special requeriments.

Yeah I understand, absence of linearity can be a double-edged sword, in a way that's just a consequence of the style you're going for in that map. I'm not too sure what I would do in your case but I guess I'd mostly focus on implementing the weaponry and health at strategic points that could be marked from distance, or maybe find some kind of recognizable pattern in the gameplay (e.g.. only having certain items in specific areas, for instance the regions with hints of civilization would make sense; having the player get familiar with it from the get-go which is important, and then they can choose to run for supplies when overwhelmed to later confront certain enemies head on). You could have special types of monsters inhabiting different regions of your map too, and use Respawns to your advantage, I don't know but there are plenty of ways you can get creative with it once you're done with the terrain work - will just need some time for the ideas to mature but surely they will as you complete the map.

Dukebot, on 19 April 2020 - 11:15 AM, said:

Sorry for my ignorance but I don't know what's the "Watchtower". If you can point that out I will definelty have a look to that.

The Watchtower is a user on these boards with an interesting perspective on Duke 3D and level design in general, here's just an example of one thread he posted in: https://forums.duke4...d/page__st__270 - surely not necessarily in line with what you're looking for exactly but I find that there are plenty of valid points to learn to at least consider from his opinions, they usually are quite detailed and complete with references.

Merlijn, on 19 April 2020 - 12:42 PM, said:

-In case of DN3D you need to work with the limited AI of the enemies. I like adding strategic stay-puts to make them look smarter than they really are.
For example, you can have 1 battlelord chasing you while a second one stays put on a vantage point. Makes the encounters more challening and interesting.

Also a great point I find is very important to consider as well.

[Dukebot]

Mark, on 19 April 2020 - 11:50 AM, said:

watchtower is a forum user's name

ck3D, on 19 April 2020 - 12:49 PM, said:

The Watchtower is a user on these boards with an interesting perspective on Duke 3D and level design in general, here's just an example of one thread he posted in: https://forums.duke4...d/page__st__270 - surely not necessarily in line with what you're looking for exactly butI find that there are plenty of valid points to learn to at least consider from his opinions, they usually are quite detailed and complete with references.

Thanks for pointing that! I will check =).

Merlijn, on 19 April 2020 - 12:42 PM, said:

Thanks for opening the topic.
The link CK3D provided is a good read.

Item and enemy placement become harder to manage in an open, non-linear map. I think every mapper struggles with this to some degree (at least I do).
The most obvious thing to do is to have a couple of essential items right on the beaten path to be 100% sure the player doesn't miss those.
(Example: in the Shaky grounds pt 1 the player gets the RPG early on, before entering the big outdoor area. It's absolutely essential to have it and I had to make sure the player didn't miss it).

If that particular bit is secured, you can afford a lot more in the non-linear parts.

Some loose thoughts:

-If you playtest your own map, try a different paths each time and see how it affects the overall experience.

-DN3D enemy types fit certain areas: Pig cops fit urban areas, Octobrains fit murky parts near water etc. So that's something to keep in mind as well.

-In case of DN3D you need to work with the limited AI of the enemies. I like adding strategic stay-puts to make them look smarter than they really are.
For example, you can have 1 battlelord chasing you while a second one stays put on a vantage point. Makes the encounters more challening and interesting.

Thanks for your answer and feedback! This is a very nice advice and I will take that into account.

As for placing key items in order to advance I am trying to do this with weapons. At the start of the map, there are no enemies, and they start appearing as player grabs weapon and equipment. If the player starts to explore without grabbing items, he will start encountering strong enemies and fight that he can't win. So this is my way to force the player grab items and then spawn enemies, to have light action on the start. Once the player has some equipment, he can venture further in the map and fight stronger enemies. This is the strategy I am following right now. But as there are lot of available paths and things to see, I am being generous with supplies and resources to the player, but I just don't wan't to overdo it.

As for the enemy AI, I noticed this while doing this map. Pic Cops for example, have low mobility (they can't jump platforms that are a few steps high) and they are literally stupid, falling always into acid pits and things like that. Since a few days ago I started to don't put pigs on the open areas and put more Troops (that have good mobility with jet pack) and Enforcers, which have mobility with jump (don't get stuck in terrain that has some height like the pigs) and also shoot well in the distance, because shootgun fire on open space it's not so good. I compensated the lack of cops, putting more of them in caves or inside temples, where colse range combat is more deadly for shotgun fire. Octorbrains and Commanders are also great for open areas, as they fly around and don't get stuck. I take note of your advice and what you said of challenging encounters taking the limited AI into account (this is something I still have to experiment a little bit).

ck3D, on 19 April 2020 - 12:49 PM, said:

Yeah I understand, absence of linearity can be a double-edged sword, in a way that's just a consequence of the style you're going for in that map. I'm not too sure what I would do in your case but I guess I'd mostly focus on implementing the weaponry and health at strategic points that could be marked from distance, or maybe find some kind of recognizable pattern in the gameplay (e.g.. only having certain items in specific areas, for instance the regions with hints of civilization would make sense; having the player get familiar with it from the get-go which is important, and then they can choose to run for supplies when overwhelmed to later confront certain enemies dead on). You could have special types of monsters inhabiting different regions of your map too, and use Respawns to your advantage, I don't know but there are plenty of ways you can get creative with it once you're done with the terrain work - will just need some time for the ideas to mature but surely they will as you complete the map.

Also a great point I find is very important to consider as well.

Thanks for your answer and advice! Yeah your feedback is very appreciated because it's kinda what I am trying to do. I placed weaponary and equipment needeed in order to venture further on the map, without weapons no chance killing battlelodrs and commanders. Also placed the items in spots that are very visible and invite the player to go and look there, I'm not hiding the weapons in the middle of the woods and plants.

Also been playing with respawns aswell. At first I use them to introduce combat, as the map was open, a massive horde of enemies come to the player when the player enters the main area, to avoid this, I spawn enemies as the player gets weapon. Then the rest of the map the enemies are places as normal, and then I respawn enemies when player gets key cards, because he has to go to areas already explored, so I spawn enemies to fight the player and use the open field as a reusable battlefield.


Thanks for all the feedback given, it's very appreciated. Will make some testing with this and see if I get some progress done =).

[Mark]

This type of thread has been started many times over the years. I'm not sure what word/words would work best in a site search. Here is one to get you started. Lots of good ideas in these threads and the others when you find them. Maybe provide links to as many as you can find and list them in the opening post.
EDIT: I linked to a search I typed in and it breaks if you try to go there. From the main forum page type search for "build porn" including the quotes.

[Dukebot]

Mark, on 19 April 2020 - 02:45 PM, said:

This type of thread has been started many times over the years. I'm not sure what word/words would work best in a site search. Here is one to get you started. Lots of good ideas in these threads and the others when you find them. Maybe provide links to as many as you can find and list them in the opening post.
EDIT: I linked to a search I typed in and it breaks if you try to go there. From the main forum page type search for "build porn" including the quotes.

I did the search and found this topics that seemees related to what you were talking about, should I put them on the main post?

Duke 3D Build Porn Discussion https://forums.duke4...__1#entry212670
Duke3d Build Porn https://forums.duke4...__1#entry212651
Those simple questions thread https://forums.duke4...__fromsearch__1
What makes a map great? https://forums.duke4...es-a-map-great/
How do you organize your projects? https://forums.duke4...r-map-projects/
General talk about ideas for maps, how to come up with new stuff, etc https://forums.duke4...__fromsearch__1

[Mark]

If you have the time and ambition, go scrolling thru the ton of threads and find others that would fit. Create a whole new first post in a text editor with a description of what the thread is for and include all the related links you found. Then when you are ready to post them all, ask one of the board maintainers to either add in the new first post or give you temp permission to add it. Not sure if the second way is possible or not.

[Dukebot]

Mark, on 19 April 2020 - 04:39 PM, said:

If you have the time and ambition, go scrolling thru the ton of threads and find others that would fit. Create a whole new first post in a text editor with a description of what the thread is for and include all the related links you found. Then when you are ready to post them all, ask one of the board maintainers to either add in the new first post or give you temp permission to add it. Not sure if the second way is possible or not.

Yeah now I have time because of the quarintine and for being suspended from my job until the situation get's better for the company. I've already have a .txt file actin as an index of interesting posts, this is why I started this thread, wanted to have an entry point acting as an Index for information. When I have some more things sorted I will post it there, so that post can act as a reference and then the admin can decide if put as sticky post or not.

[Mark]

Here I am telling someone else how to start a compilation of posts and I still have to finish my project someday of bringing together the dozens of con code snippets I've collected from posts for years.

[Dukebot]

Mark, on 19 April 2020 - 04:57 PM, said:

Here I am telling someone else how to start a compilation of posts and I still have to finish my project someday of bringing together the dozens of con code snippets I've collected from posts for years.

That would be great! Hope you find the time to do that!