[Balls of Steel Forever]

Jimmy, on 18 August 2020 - 11:47 AM, said:

Anarchy has rules. Again, you are confusing anarchy and chaos.

Anarchy in the truest sense is the lack of government

The definition of government is the exercise of authority in a political unit.
If I (political unit, also one in authority) go rob my neighbors house and kill his wife (freedom granted by one in authority, in this case myself)
My neighbor with a shotgun has the full authority to put me in his sex dungeon eternally
He (the political unit) is exercising his authority with a shotgun (convincing force) to do so

Stating that anarchy has rules,
and there will be nobody to enforce them
Means those rules don't exist
And therefore neither can true anarchy.

And so long as there is more than one person on this planet
there will be rules
there will be people to enforce the rules
there will be government.

R A D A Я, on 18 August 2020 - 12:07 PM, said:

Good and evil do exist and so does absolute morality. Humans are born evil and some of them learn to do good.

If there is no God, everything is permissible
-Dostoevsky

However everything being permissible does not mean
do evil because evils easy and convenient
and sometimes yields better results

It means that all forms of philosophy are valid,
and morality is based on the individual and not society or religion

[Radar]

There are 2 principles to anarchy:

-You can do anything you want
-If you annoy anyone, they get to kill you

Western society already operates this way, except only the state can kill, and you "annoy" them if you break their laws. Anarchy simply replaces the state with the individual.

I'm actually not an anarchist, so if any of that's wrong please correct me.

[Danukem]

There may not be any objective moral truths, but there are universal inter-subjective facts that people can construct moral principles from that rational people can often agree upon (some very general ones can almost reach consensus). Reducing misery and increasing happiness and freedom in the world are goals that most of us can get behind. I don't feel a need to be validated by god or the universe and convince myself that there is a some kind of objective morality I am promoting. It's enough for me that what I try to promote in my small way is good in the lowercase 'g' sense of good (i.e. intrinsic good for the sentient beings who have to suffer through this world). Jack Sparrow is right, of course, that morality does not put any constraints on our actions unless we internalize it, but that's not news.

[Balls of Steel Forever]

R A D A Я, on 18 August 2020 - 12:24 PM, said:

There are 2 principles to anarchy:

-You can do anything you want
-If you annoy me, I get to kill you

Western society already operates this way, except only the state can kill, and you "annoy" them if you break their laws. Anarchy simply replaces the state with the individual.

The problem that I have with this

is how is person B not exercising a form of governmental authority.
He is enabling himself to exercise that person A be under his rule, and suffer punishment.

A batch of rules that two tenants make in an apartment to pay their fair share of rent
is a form of government
as one or the other will enforce his or her authority if such rules are broken.

If you told me it was individual lead government, and not anarchy
I would believe that individual lead government is possible.

some individuals would have less or more power,
and we would just eventually end up in the same square we are today

[Jimmy]

R A D A Я, on 18 August 2020 - 11:53 AM, said:

We actually do deserve hell.

That one fact being true does not make the other things he said true. This is how Satan confuses people; Present a truth as a prerequisite to a lie.

The Overman, on 18 August 2020 - 12:12 PM, said:

If I (political unit, also one in authority) go rob my neighbors house and kill his wife (freedom granted by one in authority, in this case myself)

Tyranny is not freedom.

The Overman, on 18 August 2020 - 12:12 PM, said:

Stating that anarchy has rules,
and there will be nobody to enforce them

Says who? Read Hans Hermann Hoppe.

The Overman, on 18 August 2020 - 12:12 PM, said:

Means those rules don't exist

They've always existed.

The Overman, on 18 August 2020 - 12:12 PM, said:

It means that all forms of philosophy are valid,

HAHAHA. Fucking no. As an ardent student of philosophy, most philosophies are terrible.
Follow the link for a quick rundown on how much of a dipshit Plato could be.

The Overman, on 18 August 2020 - 12:12 PM, said:

and morality is based on the individual and not society or religion

Danukem, on 18 August 2020 - 12:29 PM, said:

There may not be any objective moral truths, but there are universal inter-subjective facts that people can construct moral principles from that rational people can often agree upon (some very general ones can almost reach consensus). Reducing misery and increasing happiness and freedom in the world are goals that most of us can get behind. I don't feel a need to be validated by god or the universe and convince myself that there is a some kind of objective morality I am promoting. It's enough for me that what I try to promote in my small way is good in the lowercase 'g' sense of good (i.e. intrinsic good for the sentient beings who have to suffer through this world). Jack Sparrow is right, of course, that morality does not put any constraints on our actions unless we internalize it, but that's not news.

There is a core morality that is a universal unwavering truth, the basis of Natural Law. The basics of Natural Law are that karma is real and that you have no right to steal anything from anyone else for no reason (including property, pursuit of happiness, innocence, well-being, health, life and limb.) Betrayal of Natural Law ends up being very bad for you in the long run.

The Overman, on 18 August 2020 - 12:40 PM, said:

The problem that I have with this

is how is person B not exercising a form of governmental authority.
He is enabling himself to exercise that person A be under his rule, and suffer punishment.

Anarchy is the dissolution of involuntary structures. People are allowed to enter whatever voluntary structures they wish.

[Aristotle Gumball]

I don't think you guys really believe in any of this shit. Only Sam since he's schizophrenic.

[Forge]

live and let live is not a form of government
neither is staying on your own side of the fence
it's an understanding between individuals

[Balls of Steel Forever]

Jimmy, on 18 August 2020 - 12:47 PM, said:

Anarchy is the dissolution of involuntary structures. People are allowed to enter whatever voluntary structures they wish.

No, it is not.
Anarchy is the lack of government.
Any rules that are enforced in any way
is evidence of government
and therefore proof against the existence of true anarchy

And your idea of what anarchy is
is pretty much already applied to the world as a whole

Jimmy, on 18 August 2020 - 12:47 PM, said:

Tyranny is not freedom.

No, it is not.
But true freedom and true anarchy
both mean a lawless society with no consequences.

Jimmy, on 18 August 2020 - 12:47 PM, said:

They've always existed.

because some base form of government has always existed.

Jimmy, on 18 August 2020 - 12:47 PM, said:

Says who? Read Hans Hermann Hoppe.

Let's say I could
Do I need to read the entire communist manifesto to also understand that it's impossible and a fairy tale.

Spoiler

and honestly I would if I could,
I did like reading about opposing ideations
when I was able to

It's hard to do anything other than gloss over info
now.

Jimmy, on 18 August 2020 - 12:47 PM, said:

HAHAHA. Fucking no. As an ardent student of philosophy, most philosophies are terrible.
Follow the link for a quick rundown on how much of a dipshit Plato could be.

For some it's complete and utter bullshit,
for some it's words to live by.

This is why free speech is something we need to protect.

Cartaphallus, on 18 August 2020 - 01:39 PM, said:

I don't think you guys really believe in any of this shit. Only Sam since he's schizophrenic.

I prefer the term batshit crazy,
me representing those with schizo based disorders in any way
even in a situation as minuscule is this

is not something I want to be responsible for.

[Forge]

The Overman, on 18 August 2020 - 01:43 PM, said:

Any rules that are enforced in any way
is evidence of government

wrong

[Balls of Steel Forever]

Forge, on 18 August 2020 - 01:45 PM, said:

wrong

How?

[Jimmy]

His whole post is wrong, mate.

[Danukem]

If you enforce a few rules on your kids in your family it's a bit of a stretch to call that a government.

[Forge]

there are basic survival principles and understandings between individuals and groups that require no higher authority

individual preservation
family preservation
tribe preservation
community preservation


nobody needs to dictate conservation in times of need and trading / sharing in times of abundance.
nobody needs to explain to anybody that if you sneak onto your neighbor's property to steal their food during a famine that you are risking your life

[Balls of Steel Forever]

Danukem, on 18 August 2020 - 01:54 PM, said:

If you enforce a few rules on your kids in your family it's a bit of a stretch to call that a government.

it is a stretch, I agree.

but I am a very pedantic person

And saying that an average household doesn't fall under
"the action or manner of controlling or regulating a nation, organization, or people."
is untrue.

A micro level of government such as a household,
no matter how little the power or authority one has is in that household it is still a form of government.

Forge, on 18 August 2020 - 02:01 PM, said:

there are basic survival principles and understandings between individuals and groups that require no higher authority

individual preservation
family preservation
tribe preservation
community preservation


nobody needs to dictate conservation in times of need and trading / sharing in times of abundance.
nobody needs to explain to anybody that if you sneak onto your neighbor's property to steal their food during a famine that you are risking your life

A government is not a higher authority
A government is, again,
"the action or manner of controlling or regulating a nation, organization, or people."

Stating that there are already present rules and guidelines
and it is implied that such will be enforced
is evidence of control and regulation

[Forge]

The Overman, on 18 August 2020 - 02:11 PM, said:

A government is not a higher authority

a government is a hierarchy of rule makers, rule enforcers, and rule followers

there is no need for any of that in my example

you're conflating any form of order with law which requires enforcement

Quote

pedantic

you might as well say the laws of physics needs governmental regulation

you're trying very hard, but you are still very wrong

[Balls of Steel Forever]

Forge, on 18 August 2020 - 02:22 PM, said:

a government is a hierarchy of rule makers, rule enforcers, and rule followers

there is no need for any of that in my example

you're conflating any form of order with law which requires enforcement


you might as well say the laws of physics needs governmental regulation

you're trying very hard, but you are still very wrong

I obviously believe very differently

and it's very much within the grasp of your opinion to state that my beliefs are complete bs.

[Forge]

The Overman, on 18 August 2020 - 02:31 PM, said:

I obviously believe very differently

post-modernism doesn't make feelings physical realities

The Overman, on 18 August 2020 - 02:31 PM, said:

your opinion

textbook definitions are not opinions

Definition of government

1 : the body of persons that constitutes the governing authority of a political unit or organization: such as
a : the officials comprising the governing body of a political unit and constituting the organization as an active agency The government was slow to react to the crisis.
b: a small group of persons holding simultaneously the principal political executive offices of a nation or other political unit and being responsible for the direction and supervision of public affairs:
(1) : administration sense
(2) : such a group in a parliamentary system constituted by the cabinet or by the ministry
2a : the organization, machinery, or agency through which a political unit exercises authority and performs functions and which is usually classified according to the distribution of power within it
b : the complex of political institutions, laws, and customs through which the function of governing is carried out
3 : the act or process of governing specifically : authoritative direction or control
4 : the continuous exercise of authority over and the performance of functions for a political unit : rule

Definition of anarchy

1a : absence of government
b : a state of lawlessness or political disorder due to the absence of governmental authority
c : a utopian society of individuals who enjoy complete freedom without government
2a : absence or denial of any authority or established order
b : absence of order

tl;dr:

A government is the system or group of people governing an organized community,

Anarchy is the state of a society being freely constituted without authorities or a governing body. It may also refer to a society or group of people that totally rejects a set hierarchy.

[Balls of Steel Forever]

Forge, on 18 August 2020 - 02:48 PM, said:

post-modernism doesn't make feelings physical realities


textbook definitions are not opinions

Definition of government

1 : the body of persons that constitutes the governing authority of a political unit or organization: such as
a : the officials comprising the governing body of a political unit and constituting the organization as an active agency The government was slow to react to the crisis.
b: a small group of persons holding simultaneously the principal political executive offices of a nation or other political unit and being responsible for the direction and supervision of public affairs:
(1) : administration sense
(2) : such a group in a parliamentary system constituted by the cabinet or by the ministry
2a : the organization, machinery, or agency through which a political unit exercises authority and performs functions and which is usually classified according to the distribution of power within it
b : the complex of political institutions, laws, and customs through which the function of governing is carried out
3 : the act or process of governing specifically : authoritative direction or control
4 : the continuous exercise of authority over and the performance of functions for a political unit : rule

Definition of anarchy

1a : absence of government
b : a state of lawlessness or political disorder due to the absence of governmental authority
c : a utopian society of individuals who enjoy complete freedom without government
2a : absence or denial of any authority or established order
b : absence of order

tl;dr:

A government is the system or group of people governing an organized community,

Anarchy is the state of a society being freely constituted without authorities or a governing body. It may also refer to a society or group of people that totally rejects a set hierarchy.

https://www.oxfordle...nt?q=government
3. the activity or the manner of controlling a country

implied laws and guidelines
still fall under activity or manner of controlling a country

W/o government you have anarchy
but it is impossible to be without government under the broadest possible definition of such

[Jimmy]

"You have to accept my own personal vague definition of a word or you're wrong."

[Forge]

The Overman, on 18 August 2020 - 02:58 PM, said:

but it is impossible to be without government under the broadest possible definition of such

wrong

the only way you can come to your conclusion is by omitting the hierarchy authority part of the definition

you seem to think that any rule, law, or cooperative understanding / agreement automatically makes the situation a government.
simply not true without huge amounts of mental gymnastics.

this is the point where it gets repetitive. Post-modernists don't need facts, and make up their own definitions and rules.
whatever it takes just so you won't admit you're wrong. have fun with that. knock down a statue of an elk for me.

[Danukem]

Forge, on 18 August 2020 - 03:39 PM, said:

this is the point where it gets repetitive. Post-modernists don't need facts, and make up their own definitions and rules.
whatever it takes just so you won't admit you're wrong. have fun with that. knock down a statue of an elk for me.

He's not a post-modernist. Post-modernists don't even accept logic. He just has a loose definition of 'government'. What is at stake in this semantics squabble? It's easy to lose the plot.

[Forge]

Danukem, on 18 August 2020 - 03:44 PM, said:

Post-modernists don't even accept logic.

in the broadest sense of my definition, he's a post-modernist



you can never be wrong if you always move the goal post

[Danukem]

Forge, on 18 August 2020 - 03:47 PM, said:

in the broadest sense of my definition, he's a post-modernist

Overly broad definitions are a path to post-modernism.

[Balls of Steel Forever]

Forge, on 18 August 2020 - 03:39 PM, said:

the only way you can come to your conclusion is by omitting the hierarchy authority part of the definition

There is no hierarchy or authority or anything even vaguely related to that in that definition.
That is the definition raw and uncut.

Forge, on 18 August 2020 - 03:39 PM, said:

you seem to think that any rule, law, or cooperative understanding / agreement automatically makes the situation a government.
simply not true without huge amounts of mental gymnastics.

If something requires huge amounts of mental gymnastics it doesn't make it a lie, or unfounded, or even untrue for that matter.
If it takes millennia to figure out a certain math equation,
and if that equation is right

It doesn't make the equation untrue or any less true

Yes

In my opinion any agreements purpose
is to define the boundaries of the control that's in place
and once those boundaries are defined
even if they are only implied boundaries
with implied boundaries of control

it's still government
someone or something will enforce those boundaries

Forge, on 18 August 2020 - 03:39 PM, said:

this is the point where it gets repetitive. Post-modernists don't need facts, and make up their own definitions and rules.
whatever it takes just so you won't admit you're wrong. have fun with that. knock down a statue of an elk for me.

It's already repetitive
I'm not going to change anyones opinion with this on here
and it'd take a therapist many years to change mine.

But I hope this made us all look at things a little bit differently

Stating that I'm a post modernist when I preach rousseau and hobbes of all people
people that didn't even exist in the post modernist era
Dostoevsky was a bolshevik utopian socialist that conveniently converted himself into a slavophil
A slavophil is very far from post modernism
Nietzsche my lord and savior who likes to be punched in with almost every modern philosophy
But he was an existential nihilist at heart
Which has nothing to do with Postmodernism besides them sticking nietzsches name with it for points.
so all that is is a failed attempt at categorizing

Forge, on 18 August 2020 - 03:47 PM, said:

in the broadest sense of my definition, he's a post-modernist

All is fair in love and war

[Forge]

The Overman, on 18 August 2020 - 04:16 PM, said:

There is no hierarchy or authority or anything even vaguely related to that in that definition.

which thread are you reading?
not sure if it's this one.
standard dictionaries define government as authority enforced through hierarchical means

you seem to have omitted the examples they used

3 the activity or the manner of controlling a country

We need strong government to take the country through this crisis.
The army retained a strong role in the government of the country.
in government At that time the Democrats were in government.

also:
controlling = expressing authority
country = group subjected to the authority = hierarchy

but you go on and use your post-modernist non-definition definition. The one that states that any act of behaving in an orderly and repeatable / conformist behavior, with or without outside influence, is government.
e.g gravity = government

since we've established that most everyone here, except you, is using traditional dictionary definitions, then there's really no discussion going on. We're all playing make-believe at this point.

It was amusing while it lasted, but 'tis time to move on.

[Forge]

[Balls of Steel Forever]

Forge, on 18 August 2020 - 09:55 PM, said:

which thread are you reading?
not sure if it's this one.
standard dictionaries define government as authority enforced through hierarchical means

but you go on and use your post-modernist non-definition definition. The one that states that any act of behaving in an orderly and repeatable behavior, with or without outside influence, is government.
e.g gravity = government

since we've established that most everyone here, except you, is using traditional dictionary definitions, then there's really no discussion going on. We're all playing make-believe at this point.

It was amusing while it lasted, but 'tis time to move on.

I particularly don't think I need to talk with my therapist about this being a delusion though.
It is based somewhat in reality other then my own.
so I think I'm gonna keep it.
because I like it.

Not that I have a choice other then years of therapy in keeping it if it were a delusion though.

Since I agree that it's time to move on,
but like I get in these moods,
and I somehow end up talking with some random who speaks french and claims she's a girl for 3 days straight,
who is btw doing an exceptional job if they're not pretending
I'm not a reasonable person, and that is something I need to work on,

so this response is going in a good ol' rant box,
I miss those days.

Spoiler

Forge, on 18 August 2020 - 09:55 PM, said:

which thread are you reading?
not sure if it's this one.
standard dictionaries define government as authority enforced through hierarchical means

The oxford dictionary is a very standard dictionary
This definition could very well also be used to prove my point and it's more accurate
"the group of people who are responsible for controlling a country or a state"
https://www.oxfordle...lish/government
It does not define what a group of people means and does not acknowledge any form of hierarchy
stating that implied rules and laws that control people did not occur from experimentation with such rules and laws when monkeys made love way back when is nonsensical

It's implied government
It's implied that those laws and guidelines (control) will always be upheld by the people (group of people) (country/state)

Let's even use the Merriam Webster definition
The main one for fun.
"the body of persons that constitutes the governing authority of a political unit or organization"

A person with a gun in a house,
and you walk into that house with a knife asking for his heroin supply or whatever true rebel anarchists make in their off time.
The body of persons,
the man with a gun,
what constitutes the governing authority
he has a gun and you are unlawfully (the law being up to the man with a gun) occupying his territory,
the political unit,
his territory, in this case his house

I would agree that many many many micro governments would be possible if everyone respected each other
and people could stay out of other peoples shit,
but many many many micro governments is not anarchy

I don't know but my mind or mental gymnastics or whatever seems to be forming this as a normal thought,
I'm pretty sure "satan" isn't talking through me right now,
and "death" is still yelling, but I'm ignoring it,
and this has nothing to do with being inside thricecursedes' body and making him masturbate to very oversized oiled hairy men
I only did that for the last sentence, also making fun of myself makes my days better

Forge, on 18 August 2020 - 09:55 PM, said:

e.g gravity = government

if you could like give me idk a time where gravity had the manner to control a country,
idk
that'd be cool

like I'll try
"the group of people who are responsible for controlling a country or a state"
fuck not that one
"the body of persons that constitutes the governing authority of a political unit or organization"
not that one either
"the activity or the manner of controlling a country"

Obviously micro level, cause micro level is easiest for explanation sake.

Gravity pushes down on man
gravity controls man

manner of controlling man
it pushes down on man

man 666 defies gravity by making a rocket
no punishment

man 777 attempts to defy gravity by jumping out a 666th floor window
punishment

then is this a characteristic or customary mode of acting
this pushing down on man
No

Not government

Although I feel I may have lost brain cells,
by making that up,
maybe it's the tumors.






I mean if my commie god hating ass left,
there'd be less variety here
and variety is the spice of life

Although I did want to at one point,
I realized that was nonsense

plus not to get extremely sappy
I didn't have any friends when I first made an account on here
people that I talked to at school sure
people that wouldn't report my dad to the police if i met them at home afterschool
and having to lie about why they could never come over
not going to happen
and not going to happen

even though it didn't matter anyways because half the school knew after multiple black eyes and me not lying about it,
I realized after that people in a collective do not care about other people

My dad had to get better before I started making real friends
and this place took up my time until that was

I don't know
the feels or whatever
nostalgia
nice accepting place this is
I hope it stays that way

Edit: English broken: too much french

[Aristotle Gumball]

Jimmy, on 18 August 2020 - 03:36 PM, said:

I gotta admit I wasn't expecting that and spit out my drink.

[Forge]

The Overman, on 18 August 2020 - 11:24 PM, said:

It is based somewhat in reality other then my own.
so I think I'm gonna keep it.
because I like it.

The Overman, on 18 August 2020 - 04:16 PM, said:

There is no hierarchy or authority or anything even vaguely related to that in that definition.

you do you
you define things the way that makes you comfy
"the group of people who are responsible for controlling a country or a state"
"the body of persons that constitutes the governing authority of a political unit or organization"
e.g. a man in a house is a group of people controlling a country or state for the benefit of your pretzel logic. (but gravity is not - reasons hazy)
e.g. controlling does not mean exercising authority over (they must use 'pretty please' a lot)
e.g. one entity (group/body of persons) exercising control over another entity (country/state) does not mean there is a flow of control in one direction; thus hierarchy does not exist (do as we say, if you don't, nothing will happen because nobody will enforce it)
e.g. persons is singular - the 's' at the end of persons is there only to distract you from the word 'authority'

you can redefine the words inside definitions all you please. if that's how you sort things out, then take that rabbit hole and see where it leads you.
don't be surprised if very few follow along and use the same shifting sands definitions

[Hank]