[NightFright]

Well, for me the worst case scenario has been avoided with Rage 2 and Doom Eternal coming to Steam after all - in spite of all the dickishness that's currently going on with that Epic exclusive shit. Sure, I guess you will still be required to have a Bethesda.net account for sure, but we've reached the point where I am actually grateful I can still buy and launch my Games through Steam at all.

[Sledgehammer]

That's because Bethesda gave up since their shitty store was also, well, shitty so nobody bothered with it and they lost a lot of money. I rate it the shittiest digital store after Epic Store.

Even MS gave up on their Windows Store despite the fact that they actually had pretty good exclusives. In the end they had to put their games to Steam since their store is not only exclusive to Windows 10, it's also terrible. It's so bad third party devs lost a lot of money, even Windows Store version of CoD bombed, people were complaining about dead servers on the first or the second day since release.

[NightFright]

So let's keep fingers crossed that Chinese spyware launcher shares the same fate as Bethesda and Windows Live. Maybe Steam should have competitors, but it needs to be a fair one that isn't based on forcing you to buy there because you don't have another choice.

[Jimmy]

Epic's big mistake is releasing a shitty service. Best case scenario they release a better service than Steam, but the problem remains that Steam is mostly functional and Valve responds to software issues fast enough. It's not perfect but it works good enough and people are comfortable with it. If your new service is garbage, people are just gonna go "Why the fuck can't I just use Steam?!" To break people's comfort you have to be revolutionary, this ain't it. Even fifteen years ago people would have thought Epic was awful. A search function wasn't a day one feature. What the fuck were they thinking? Exclusives aren't enough to snatch people up, most PC gamers these days still have a modern console because developers are so shitty and retarded, for many gamers consoles are still the more convenient option. You're gonna see a lot of the PC-&-Console gamers just buy these games on consoles.

[Forge]

Randy doesn't care. He already has his 'exclusive' money. It's a win for him no matter how good or bad the sales are.
Depending on who you believe, Metro Exodus sales numbers weren't hurt by being only on Epic.

Don't underestimate how causal casuals are. It's a PC, not a console. The best outcome from any 'pushback' is that maybe Epic will use some of that money they're drowning in to further develop and feature enrich their frontend. They're making too much bank to simply disappear.

[Jimmy]

You're thinking short term, and in that frame you are correct.

They're creating a bubble though. Sales will slump over time (and if you look they already have been.) Once sales slump, Epic will have to adopt a new predatory strategy. It's all usury, and usury kills itself through it's own greed over time.

[Forge]

I'm not thinking short term. I'm being a realist about the situation. They buy exclusive sales rights for a specific amount of time. They pay well to do so. Casuals want their shiny baubles no matter what.

Casuals are the reason there is an Epic and shitty copy-paste games. Casuals demand a constant influx of AAA games, but refuse to allow the market prices to grow, thus there is little to no progress in development & developers are left trying to cut corners and make a profit any way they can

I don't care if Epic fails or succeeds. I'm not defending them. Their strategy works because casuals are brainless and greedy.


The 'creeping bubble' of over-saturation is market-wide. Epic is not the cause, and won't be the only casualty when it bursts.

[Sledgehammer]

NightFright, on 08 April 2019 - 12:46 PM, said:

So let's keep fingers crossed that Chinese spyware launcher shares the same fate as Bethesda and Windows Live. Maybe Steam should have competitors, but it needs to be a fair one that isn't based on forcing you to buy there because you don't have another choice.

That will take time, though they honestly don't produce anything of a good value (the only worthwhile thing they have is Unreal Engine now) and I doubt they will get great exclusive games, I certainly don't expect them to bother with Japanese developers at least and they could actually exploit Steam weaknesses to their success which I'm glad they will never do. They won't give up so easily though because foreign personal data is a very valuable thing, to Chinese government especially and Tencent botnet is a perfect way to get all the data necessary. Not even some malware or viruses are as bad as this crappy client and I've seen shitton of them.

But I think only Steam can truly kill itself, that or better competitors which Steam lack of and which I think we won't see because of the state of gaming industry alone. Big companies simply won't allow completely pro-customer digital store to exist because they wouldn't support it. This is why I think GOG isn't as popular either with DRM being a big reason. Even some indie developers didn't want to bother with GOG until they made GOG Galaxy.

Forge, on 08 April 2019 - 12:58 PM, said:

Metro Exodus sales numbers weren't hurt by being only on Epic.

Tencent is willing to pay millions. It's obvious that their deal made the game already profitable and they like others don't need your money. Companies are literally selling their games to other company now and it's a fact which was proven by sell-outs themselves. But how long will it last? I hope it will cause some damage to the industry until they run out of money, but the only problem I see which likely will prevent this from happening is that people will buy those games on Steam anyway.

Forge, on 08 April 2019 - 12:58 PM, said:

Don't underestimate how causal casuals are. It's a PC, not a console.

Casuals are morons, but it's possible to piss off even absolute moron, especially if you try to take away convenience from him, this is the main reason why Epic in their eyes is a shitty store. For example, convenience is the biggest reason why Discord became a major success, a this thing which is also owned by Tencent and which is collecting your data quite blatantly too, something they're actually openly stating in their EULA. As for consoles, well, consoles have complete morons as well, arguably it's even worse than on PC (PS5 release will show how bad it is). They're the major reason why EA sport shit is actually still selling and help the company to exist, for example.

[Forge]

not defending the virus they use for a frontend, and I agree with pretty much everything you posted

except

I believe you are over-estimating how much of an "inconvenience" installing and launching the Epic front end is to someone who wants the newest, shiniest game, as opposed to how much patience said casual would have in order to wait a year for it to become available on the frontend spyware they already have installed.
It's a PC, it's not like they have to go spend another $300-400 on a console because the game is exclusive to one they don't own. Just a couple clicks, give away their email address, some personal data, sign a soul-selling eula, and they're off playing their new game and bragging the next day to their co-workers across the deep-frier.

[Forge]

If Epic wants to be extra-slick in stealing your life, they should code in the ability to import your steam profile.

if it isn't a thing now, it will be

[Jimmy]

You're forgetting that a true blue thoroughbred casual is going to play on a console, not a PC. Shit like this is going to do one of two things to many PC-tier casuals; They're going to become trve hardcore gamers or move onto to the next fad, which is what gaming is right now if you're honest with yourself. Something like Crash Bandicoot for PSX is going for $30+ right now on eBay. Which is fucking ridiculous, but that's where the pleb-dollars are. AAA developers are riding that wave, and all waves break.

[Sledgehammer]

I know that you're not defending them.

Anyway, there are various kind of people. Epic does have the dumbest of all, those play Fortnite and they're like those casuals who play exclusively sport games, though just like people who play sports games only they also play Fortnite and nothing else. But the reason I believe those casuals who play AAA trash will never get to Epic until it becomes convenient enough is the same reason why nobody gave any shit about MS store or Bethesda store or any other crappy store and it's really bad. It's so bad Deepsilver suspended Steam CD keys for Metro and offered Epic keys instead and people became even more pissed off, they refused to get those keys and many wanted to ask for refunds from those key seller sites.

However, it's possible for them to succeed, that I don't deny and it's quite easy to.

[Forge]

Jimmy 100MPH, on 08 April 2019 - 02:19 PM, said:

You're forgetting that a true blue thoroughbred casual is going to play on a console phone

fixed

[Forge]

Sledgehammer, on 08 April 2019 - 02:26 PM, said:

the same reason why nobody gave any shit about MS store or Bethesda store or any other crappy store

Epic is diversified with the developers & games it provides & it has a better advertising and marketing campaign than several of the other 'failed' stores.
Having highly anticipated exclusives helps.

Eventually they'll have to clean up their virus and provide more customer services.

[Zaxx]

On a side note: Tencent released its own store outside of China:
https://techraptor.n...ina-as-wegame-x

[Zaxx]

Forge, on 08 April 2019 - 01:54 PM, said:

I believe you are over-estimating how much of an "inconvenience" installing and launching the Epic front end is to someone who wants the newest, shiniest game, as opposed to how much patience said casual would have in order to wait a year for it to become available on the frontend spyware they already have installed.

Here's the one thing that's bugging me about the whole "I don't want to install another client" argument: who the fuck cares, man? I have a bunch of clients installed on my machine, none of them starts with Windows, I just launch the one I need depending on the game I'm playing. Like I shouldn't play SC2 because it's on Battle.net instead of Steam? To me that's just a dumb argument.

[necroslut]

Zaxx, on 08 April 2019 - 10:54 PM, said:

Here's the one thing that's bugging me about the whole "I don't want to install another client" argument: who the fuck cares, man? I have a bunch of clients installed on my machine, none of them starts with Windows, I just launch the one I need depending on the game I'm playing. Like I shouldn't play SC2 because it's on Battle.net instead of Steam? To me that's just a dumb argument.

That's part of the issue though. That means when I want to play a non-Steam game likely the launcher is outdated and has to be updated, then the game has to update, that can take quite a while. That is if they even let you log in.

[johnnythewolf]

necroslut, on 08 April 2019 - 11:26 AM, said:

Casuals start to drop off if too much gets in their way. They certainly have no loyalty to Steam, but if handling multiple accounts and launchers start to become too much of a hassle they will start to really not care.

Define "casuals".

[Forge]

necroslut, on 09 April 2019 - 03:33 AM, said:

That's part of the issue though. That means when I want to play a non-Steam game likely the launcher is outdated and has to be updated, then the game has to update, that can take quite a while. That is if they even let you log in.

I launch steam so infrequently, I have the same issue.
(& gog.galaxy)

If I were actively playing a game daily, that would be a non-issue. It would only happen the first time after I opened the launcher in order to purchase the shiny bauble.

[necroslut]

johnnythewolf, on 09 April 2019 - 04:52 AM, said:

Define "casuals".

People with a casual interest in the subject.

Forge, on 09 April 2019 - 05:49 AM, said:

I launch steam so infrequently, I have the same issue.
(& gog.galaxy)

If I were actively playing a game daily, that would be a non-issue. It would only happen the first time after I opened the launcher in order to purchase the shiny bauble.

It's an issue with every launcher (and launcher-dependant game), including Steam, but it adds up the more launchers you have.
But its hardly only about updating/patching. Today there are plenty of other "hassles", like "two-factor" logins, database leaks, scammers/bot "friends", etc.
The point is that while "hardcores" might bitch and moan, they will generally persevere for the "baubles"; "casuals" on the other hand don't really care that much – annoy them too much and they will find something else to do. Whether the Epic store will reach that threshold is another matter, but it shouldn't be taken for granted that people will jump through infinite hoops for something they're not that invested in to begin with.

[Forge]

necroslut, on 09 April 2019 - 06:01 AM, said:

It's an issue with every launcher (and launcher-dependant game), including Steam, but it adds up the more launchers you have.

I don't run more than one launcher at a time. I don't play more than one game at a time
It doesn't add up any more than if I turn my rig on and windows decides it needs updates the same time my nvidia video card does.

I don't think I understand what you mean by that.

[johnnythewolf]

necroslut, on 09 April 2019 - 06:01 AM, said:

People with a casual interest in the subject.

Well, the reason I am asking is because while I play a lot of video games, I admit I use mostly Steam because it seems to be most convenient platform at the moment. Galaxy is sort of eh but it makes it easy to keep track of the games I bought from GOG, I have been avoiding Ubisoft like the plague ever since they started requiring the use of Uplay for games that I purchased on Steam, and I just do not particularly care about Origin - I only downloaded it for Dead Space 3 and Red Alert 2.

So I am wondering where I fit in all this.

[Danukem]

I think "casual" in this context means something like "normie" in political discourse. In other words, it's a low-information participant. A "casual" could be a person who actually spends tons of time playing games, but the games will be mostly AAA titles (because marketing) and the casual doesn't follow events in the industry much.

[johnnythewolf]

I see. I do not use "normie" as a word either.

[Danukem]

johnnythewolf, on 09 April 2019 - 10:18 AM, said:

I see. I do not use "normie" as a word either.

I don't use the word "casuals" much myself, because it's too vague and because people over-generalize when they use that term. It's almost a joke to me. It's like when people blame "millennials" for everything -- except at least "millennials" has a specific meaning.

[----]

Trooper Dan, on 09 April 2019 - 10:55 AM, said:

It's like when people blame "millennials" for everything.

I blame millenials for people blaming millenials.

[Forge]

generic, but accurate enough for a casual to understand

Casual Gamer

In- Short:
Casual Gamer is the lowest common denominator in the gaming industry.

Explanation:
Gamer that put simplicity over complexity.
Most pre-2000 games are propagating difficulty by complexity.
Sadly, the demand for such games is decreasing, as the majority of gamers is getting less and less demanding for intellectually challenging games caused by the intellectual degradation of the society (see "dumbing down society").
Such gamers are called Casual Gamers.
They, as the majority are the pillars of the gaming industry.
As such, the gaming industry is prioritizing their demands and adjusting towards it creating a silent standard or a collective casual gaming model.
Casual Gamer redefined standards as shown below:
Tomb Raider, 1996 -> Complex, Good classical music creating a fantastic atmosphere, gigantic levels, great riddles.
Tomb Raider, 2013 -> Simple level design (a straight line), generic action series music, no unique atmosphere at all, small chambers, very simple riddles.

Even FPS games:
Duke Nukem 3D, 1996 -> Complex level design, big levels, many small riddles.
Duke Nukem Forever, 2011-> level design = straight line, one or two simple riddles, totally messed up weapons handling and energy economy.

H&S/ Rpg:
Diablo 1 compared to Diablo 3 -> needless to say.

https://www.urbandic...=Casual%20Gamer

[Zaxx]

Well, at least the graphics got nice. Back in the day we played games that looked like shit but had excellent gameplay, nowadays it's all about the "cinematic experience" with no gameplay but with a lot of microtransactions. It's no wonder remakes and remasters are doing so well in this day and age, the old shit was simply better in most cases.

[DisgustedGrunt]

fuegerstef, on 09 April 2019 - 11:28 AM, said:

I blame millenials for people blaming millenials.

damn Scots millennials they ruined Scotland the millennium!.

[Aristotle Gumball]

Zaxx, on 09 April 2019 - 04:25 PM, said:

Well, at least the graphics got nice. Back in the day we played games that looked like shit but had excellent gameplay

Depends on what you mean by nice. I hate that high contrast look with the orange/cyan tint to everything like in modern action movies and all the exaggerated muzzle flash/screen flashing. Feels like there's much more scene detail, but also too much going on at times. I remember getting raging headaches while playing Quake 4 and pretty much stopped bothering with modern shooters at that point. Since then I've only played a handful and usually never complete them, but that's due to other reasons as well (like the games being shit).