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Why did DNF have a weapon carrying limit?

User is offline   Ninety-Six 

#61

View PostMusicallyInspired, on 28 February 2019 - 11:07 PM, said:

Also, it's worth noting that when Gearbox was first showing off DNF they had people watch the trailer behind closed doors and cameras weren't allowed to film. Someone inside got a photo, though, and the Duke that was used was the older 3DR Duke. After they were ready they released the same trailer to the public but it had the new Douche model instead.


Do you have a source?
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User is offline   Kathy 

#62

Perhaps, at first, they've made a cover art. Then they changed the model to reflect it.
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#63

Actually, 2009 era Duke and Dec 07 Duke (aka Willis Duke) are not the same design. 2009 era Duke has a Lundgren esque appearance (very noticeable when you remove duke's sunglasses)
2008 Duke also doesn't seem to be the same as the 2007 model going off the face (albeit fairly close looking)
3DR went thru a number of Duke designs from 2007-2009: Jan. 2007 with the dual pistol wielding Duke which looked rather bulky and had a round shape for his hair, Dec. 07 which is the Willis version, 2008 which had a special render for it where the Willis likeness was dropped, and 2009 where the Lundgren esque Duke made it in. All versions shared a similar glove design, but the 08 and 09 era Dukes seemed to have dirtier gloves compared to the 07 era designs.
Lundgren Duke is still in the final game as duke_attract and a toy package texture.
It should be noted that if you check the footage of the 2011 Jace Hall episodes, specifically the one where the two chucklefucks are accessing dukeed, you can kinda see the exe date of the editor (and by extension, the game) as Dec. 2009. () Now remember the official timeline inside dnf: the SP content was completed on November 2009, so that footage and potentially the rest of the footage recorded that was released during 2011 could probably have been all recorded shortly after Triptych completed the SP campaign, or at the very least, is from the same build.

This along with the Triptych trailer having Lundgren Duke and the intention of releasing it during Spring 2010, makes me believe Triptych did NOT replace Lundgren Duke. That was more likely than not a Gearbox thing, done I suspect, to attract younger audiences (the final duke model is called duke_retarget)

I should also mention, Duke retarget went thru at least one change and it's a very, very subtle one: early photos of him, particularly the promo one at morningwood feature him having the raybans. (http://duke4ever.alt...Wood_A76341.jpg) A second promo picture of him at morningwood features him with the final sunglasses. (http://duke4ever.alt...ews_1_21_11.jpg)

It should be noted that even the final GBX trailer STILL has that part from the Triptych trailer featuring Lundgren Duke firing the ripper against the Enforcer boss.

The mischaracterization of duke in terms of writing happened before GBX officially assisted with DNF in 2010, however. The script was completed in August 2009, according to the in game DNF timeline. The design fuckup that was duke_retarget was GBX's doing more likely than not.
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User is offline   MusicallyInspired 

  • The Sarien Encounter

#64

View PostNinety-Six, on 28 February 2019 - 11:53 PM, said:

Do you have a source?


I had the sneak captured camera photo saved but I must have since deleted it. It showed Duke in the frame when he says "What? Did you think I was gone forever?" except it was the 3DR model. I'm sure it was posted here on these forums. Either here or the Gearbox forums. No idea where to find it now.

EDIT: Found the thread. https://forums.duke4...ler-screenshot/

Posted Image
And here's the trailer, check frame at 1:20:


This post has been edited by MusicallyInspired: 01 March 2019 - 08:50 AM

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#65

Posted Image

where's the deagle? also, what's that between the shrinker and the freeze cannon, a flamethrower?

This post has been edited by Lazy Dog: 02 March 2019 - 04:29 PM

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User is offline   justLMAO 

#66

Tbh the two-weapon limit doesn't bother me at all. My most recent playthrough was on Insane with it intact and it was very enjoyable

I think this game would be too easy if you could carry all the best shit at once in addition to the pipebombs tbh. Having a limit makes you think about what weapons you'll need going forward so you could argue it adds a bit of strategy. Tbh I recommend keeping the pistol with you throughout the whole game, it is surprisingly beefy and very accurate

The idea of having a weapon limit was definitely pilfered from halo/COD tho, probably a muh realism thing too ngl imo
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User is offline   OpenMaw 

  • Judge Mental

#67

View PostjustLMAO, on 01 April 2020 - 01:11 PM, said:

Tbh the two-weapon limit doesn't bother me at all. My most recent playthrough was on Insane with it intact and it was very enjoyable


Well, there's no accounting for taste.

View PostjustLMAO, on 01 April 2020 - 01:11 PM, said:

I think this game would be too easy if you could carry all the best shit at once in addition to the pipebombs tbh. Having a limit makes you think about what weapons you'll need going forward so you could argue it adds a bit of strategy. Tbh I recommend keeping the pistol with you throughout the whole game, it is surprisingly beefy and very accurate



Hah! No. No it doesn't make you think about it in the slightest. The game always gives you the weapons you need for each section. They're either lying on the ground somewhere along the path, or they're dropped by enemies. You are never left without a tool you'll need. It also makes weapons like the shrinker and expander and freezer completely worthless. Why bother with them when the shotgun will suffice?

Also, Duke Nukem 3D didn't have this issue. If the game was too easy with all the guns, then make it freakin' harder.


View PostjustLMAO, on 01 April 2020 - 01:11 PM, said:

The idea of having a weapon limit was definitely pilfered from halo/COD tho, probably a muh realism thing too ngl imo


We know it came from Halo. Along with the enemy transports dropping in aliens. It's all very obvious where DNF took things from, and the problem is they are not adequately integrated with each other. You can feel the stitching.
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User is offline   necroslut 

#68

View PostCommando Nukem, on 02 April 2020 - 02:01 AM, said:

Hah! No. No it doesn't make you think about it in the slightest. The game always gives you the weapons you need for each section. They're either lying on the ground somewhere along the path, or they're dropped by enemies. You are never left without a tool you'll need. It also makes weapons like the shrinker and expander and freezer completely worthless. Why bother with them when the shotgun will suffice?

I never really could understand the "strategy" argument for a 2 weapon limit anyway. It's one thing in a game like Rainbow Six (the originals), where you plan out the mission based on intel before carrying it out, but in an "action shooter" like Duke (or Halo) you never really know what you're up against, so it's pretty impossible to plan beyond "use the most generic weapon" (which is, subsequently, usually what happens).

This post has been edited by necroslut: 29 April 2020 - 02:02 AM

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User is offline   OpenMaw 

  • Judge Mental

#69

My opinion on the two-weapon limit have refined with time and reflection.

It was still an awful choice for Duke Nukem Forever and for a Duke Nukem game in general.

However, after having gone back and played through Halo CE and Halo 2 I can say it does work for certain games. Particularly in CE it works very well. It works because it's a well integrated piece of that game.

The problem is that DNF suffered from shopping spree game design. Going down the aisles of game design and grabbing whatever looks good. It's not going to necessarily make a meal that eats good. Particularly when you're talking about weapons like the shrinker and the freeze gun which have a reduced offensive capability.
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User is offline   Radar 

  • King of SOVL

#70

I think the Doom reboots knocked it out of the park with their limited ammo system. Games like Duke3D are so unbalanced that you can play the whole game with just the shotgun averaging almost full ammo at all times. But limited ammo really helps with forcing the player to use their entire arsenal. Somebody should try that in a Duke mod one day.
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#71

There are plenty of user maps with a limited supply of ammo and they're usually very annoying. I feel the enemies in Duke 3D (and other build games) generally murder you a lot faster than modern games, until you're used to them, making up for the abundant ammo - that ammo is useless if you can't utilize it competently. Duke 3D also dates back to a time when FPS were moving away from maze games, but I still find that a lot of the challenge comes from navigating the levels correctly, there are plenty of things including, but not limited to, monsters that will cause significant damage to you if you don't know where you're going.

Compare this to Quake, which is nearer the foundation for later FPS than Duke was, sadly. In that game you walk towards an objective (usually the exit), but occasionally have an area, usually off the side of the same room, where you have to pick up a key or will a switch to move, save for a handful of exceptions like that one hub level with an elevator at the end. An interesting thought is that this could be why Quake seems to attract more speed runners than Duke as the level flow better lends itself to this.
Duke will have you wander off to a completely different building, one you might otherwise have walked right by, find your way through that building and solve a small puzzle in there before finally letting you have the key. Again, there are exceptions, very linear levels like Toxic Dump that instead seem to have more hazards or other mechanics instead. As with Quake attracting speed runners, I almost have to wonder if the less linear flow of Duke's levels would perhaps explain the number of mods to add things like RPG elements over the years, or dickheads like me that practically turn it into a puzzle game when they go near the level editor - though you can partly blame Dark Forces for the way I do things.
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User is offline   Danukem 

  • Duke Plus Developer

#72

View PostR A D A Я, on 04 August 2020 - 08:34 AM, said:

Somebody should try that in a Duke mod one day.


It has been tried many times, but testers and players complain incessantly about how there is "not enough ammo" and we always give in to them.

One of the things that makes it difficult to pull off is the tradition of having a lot of ammo in secret areas. If a map has that, then the players who know the locations have a huge advantage and a very different experience.
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#73

View PostOpenMaw, on 04 August 2020 - 08:15 AM, said:

My opinion on the two-weapon limit have refined with time and reflection.

It was still an awful choice for Duke Nukem Forever and for a Duke Nukem game in general.

However, after having gone back and played through Halo CE and Halo 2 I can say it does work for certain games. Particularly in CE it works very well. It works because it's a well integrated piece of that game.

The problem is that DNF suffered from shopping spree game design. Going down the aisles of game design and grabbing whatever looks good. It's not going to necessarily make a meal that eats good. Particularly when you're talking about weapons like the shrinker and the freeze gun which have a reduced offensive capability.



I can't talk too much for DNF, as i never played it.
Halo in general has a group of weapons you can pair togheter, based on the situations.

In Halo CE the pistol is OP, can one shot Grunts, Hunters (in the orange parts) and, paired with a plasma pistol charged shot can one shot Elites as well (alternatively you can use Needle pistol), and on Legendary difficulty i always found the explosives almost useless (exception fot the plasma grenade, and some fragmentation grenade), pratically useless the Rocket Launcher due the ammo are so poor and can't even kill a Red Elite, Pistol+Shotgun/Assault Rifle are good to deal against the Floods, without counting that experienced players can use buttons combo to their advantage.

Halo 2 is even more based on the effects of each weapon on each alien, can we talk about DNF in the same way?

Doom 2016 (even if is supposed to be called just Doom or Doom reboot xD) is exactly what an FPS should be: fast paced, brutal, with a growing arsenal of moddable weapons to use against a growing group of monsters that become stronger each level.Counting also the upgrades for the doom slayer to increase health, armor and ammo, plus the combo you can make thanks to the runes (infinite ammo if you keep a certain amount of armor, that you can refill with the right grenade :) ), and also a fast weapon switching, that allow the player to do insane combos i loved to use shotgun+supershotgun in multiplayer (another reason why i love the ".weapon switching deficiencies" bug in the old eduke32 versions).
Maybe, during the Ultra Nightmare runs they should have made some sort of respawn to avoid death from stupid falls (an appreciated thing in Doom Eternal).


Honestly i like Doom 2016 more than the Eternal, that is too much based on platforming, poor ammo and an annoying system to refill armor and ammo (that flamethrower could have be stronger at least...), is not exactly what am looking for in an FPS, that should be : "go out there and shot and destroy eveything that moves during your happy run in well builded levels" (obviously there are some exceptions, if we count some maps made to survive, i mean does not matter how much an author make them hard if in the same brilliant way of ck3D's maps).

To me looks like that DNF lack of so many features of the above stuff, but i may be wrong.

This post has been edited by The Battlelord: 04 August 2020 - 11:38 AM

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User is offline   OpenMaw 

  • Judge Mental

#74

Right. Again, with Halo it works because the game is built to work with that system in place. Maybe not flawlessly, but it works well because you can constantly switch weapons and be more or less guarenteed a solid tactical situation. All the weapons are offensive in nature.

Duke's arsenal is unique in it's hero because it's both offensive and defensive weapons. The pipebombs, tripmines, shrinker/expander, and freezer thrower are more operative as defensive weapons. They require extra steps from the player to get the killing blow. In DNF this is even amplified in the case of the shrinker because enemies can still shoot at you when shrunk. Granted, not as much damage is done, but it's still an irritation to have your scren flashing and shaking because some little piss ant is under foot.

If those weapons were ported to Halo they'd likely be in the form of a grenade type. Ice bombs, shrinker field, mines, etc...

So when you take an arsenal like that of Duke3D's and convert it to the Halo/two-weapon system. You create a problem where several of the weapons are simply undesirable. I NEVER used the shrinker in DNF after I first tried it. Why would I when I can use the shotgun, ripper, RPG, or rail gun?

I don't really agree about limiting ammo. Obviously there has to be SOME kind of limit, but in Doom Eternal, they went a little too far for my tastes. Doom 2016 had some rough edges at the end of the game. it certainly needed more curves to throw at the player. I'd love to see Doom 2016 with some of Doom Eternal's enemies thrown in late game just to see what would happen to the balance.

The other element in all this that is interesting is that DNF was never designed for the two weapon limit. It simply wasn't. The game we got was originally packing a full arsenal experience. The enemies feel like they were tweaked down slightly to accommodate the limited resources of the player, but you can tell there are elements that scream the player was intended to be packing all the guns. The game design was basically gimped to try and accommodate the weapon limit. Reduced the player movement speed drastically(compared the Jace Hall and 2006 footage to the release game and you can see the player moved a lot faster just a few short years before the end of the line.) reduced enemy damage(though still had ridiculously high RNG which makes the combat feel lumpy and uneven.)

Having access to lots of guns and ammo is not a problem in a game about shooting things. That's your bread and butter. What you need is flow control. Take, for example in Half-Life 2 when you get to Ravenholme. They stop giving you much ammo and start giving you a lotta physics items to work with, and then when you're starting to hurt for resources they give you the shotgun and it's like mana from heaven.

A combination of really good flow control and "dynamic context specific activity" would be the way to go. I do think you could limit the carry ammo a little bit, and give the player more environmental options. Yeah you can riddle a pack of pigs full of lead, but what if you use the environment to take care of them with fewer shots? Context in this instance is important. Explosive barrels, sure, that's a tried and true number. What about flaming skewering shish-kabob at an asian bbq restaraunt? What about ripping a pipe off the wall and telling a pig cop to let off some steam.

Think a cross between Half-Life 2 and Bulletstorm. Like in all the classic action movies where the hero notices something in the world around him and uses it to his advantage. You can limit the ammo a little and forc ethe player to engage with the world to come out on top. Pushing up the action-hero vibe of the game.
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User is offline   xMobilemux 

#75

My time spent playing a lot of console shooters, including Halo as well as covershooters like Gears of War made me accustom to the 2 weapons limit for a while, but I never liked it.

When I knew it was in DNF, I hated it and still do hate it to this day, but thanks to the mod from Futuretime, that's no longer an issue.
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User is offline   necroslut 

#76

Halo was a good game, but a very bad template. Other games (not just DNF) copy it for all the wrong reasons.
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