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Why did DNF have a weapon carrying limit?

#31

The only two things that really bothered me about this game were the mandatory turret sections and "boss can only be hurt via explosives." The turrets sections were just boring and on harder levels it basically a chore. Bosses should be able to be damanged by any type of weapons and it's another chore to run back and forth for ammo and shooting the boss since rpg just carry five rockets. Yes, it makes the bosses seem larger than life and you can get all symbolic about it, but wtf game.

Two weapon system didn't bother me too much. It's not like you're using ten weapons all at once; you're only shooting from one gun at all time. Even if you do carry 10 guns, if the game gives you no ammo for it, you can't use it anyways so what's the difference? (It only benefits the cheaters that use dnweapons or impulse101). Like that Battlelord fight, it pretty much only gives you rpg ammo, so that's what you'll be using. That's said, there are successful console games that let you carry all ten, and some successful ones that restrict you to only two.
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#32

View PostTea Monster, on 18 February 2019 - 04:17 PM, said:

Yes it would. Just for one instance, the expansive levels were chopped up and linearised because of loading times on consoles.

Loading times were long because assets were large. Assets were large because George restarted development on DNF every time he farted, as opposed to sticking with an iteration he decided to scrap in 2003 because reasons, and which would have run wonderfully smooth on a console that came out in 2005.

This post has been edited by Altered Reality: 21 February 2019 - 10:15 AM

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User is offline   Kerr Avon 

#33

View PostAltered Reality, on 21 February 2019 - 10:12 AM, said:

Loading times were long because assets were large. Assets were large because George restarted development on DNF every time he farted, as opposed to sticking with an iteration he decided to scrap in 2003 because reasons, and which would have run wonderfully smooth on a console that came out in 2005.



Did George own the company at that time? If not, I'd have thought that his boss would have said words to the effect of "Look, you've been making this game for far too long, it's years overdue, so I'm putting my foot down. I want it finished and ready for shipping by November the 31st, no ifs or buts."

This post has been edited by Kerr Avon: 21 February 2019 - 12:57 PM

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User is offline   Lazy Dog 

#34

View PostKerr Avon, on 21 February 2019 - 12:56 PM, said:

Did George own the company at that time? If not, I'd have thought that his boss would have said words to the effect of "Look, you've been making this game for far too long, it's years overdue, so I'm putting my foot down. I want it finished and ready for shipping by November the 31st, no ifs or buts."


didn't George owned 50% of 3D Realms?, Scott Miller owned the other 50%, so he couldn't just overrule his decisions

This post has been edited by Lazy Dog: 21 February 2019 - 02:02 PM

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User is offline   Jesus is King 

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#35

Scott legally could, and should, have overruled George, on the grounds that DNF ruined their company. George is great at figuring out what people like, but he's not great at getting things done. He should have been demoted from project leader to more of a consultation position much sooner than anything like that happened. By the time 3DR tried to rein George in they, a VERY successful company, had already lost millions!

In this way I have a hard time blaming George. George did what George does. The other people in control of the company dropped the ball by not keeping George's faults at bay.

This post has been edited by Jimmy 100MPH: 21 February 2019 - 03:00 PM

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#36

View PostJimmy 100MPH, on 21 February 2019 - 02:59 PM, said:

Scott legally could

I'm under the impression he couldn't, because instead of doing so, he started Radar Group and brought the Prey IP with him, before selling it to Zenimax. Scott acted as if he wanted to run away from 3DRealms.

This post has been edited by Altered Reality: 21 February 2019 - 04:43 PM

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User is offline   Jesus is King 

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#37

Scott is a used car salesman. He doesn't give a fuck about games, dude.
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User is online   Zaxx 

#38

View PostAltered Reality, on 18 February 2019 - 04:01 PM, said:

Do you really think DNF would've been any different, had it been a PC exclusive?

The performance was so fucking shit on consoles that it basically was a PC exclusive.
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User is online   Zaxx 

#39

View PostFuturetime23, on 18 February 2019 - 02:56 PM, said:

https://www.shacknew...anchor_26031903

George's quotes in responding the criticism the 2 weapon limit got:

"Except dnf uses the dpad for items like holoduke, duke vision, etc. There are only so many buttons.

THEN MAKE A WEAPON WHEEL YOU LAZY FAT FUCK! DO YOU KNOW OF WEAPON WHEELS, YOU INCOMPETENT PIECE OF SHIT?

Sorry, that quote triggered me... a Duke game with a 2 weapon limit, fuck everyone involved.

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 22 February 2019 - 01:03 AM

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User is offline   MusicallyInspired 

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#40

Were there weapon wheels out at the time? Doesn't matter. This kind of proves that George wasn't doing a whole love of innovating and really thinking about how to solve problems. Just concerned with copying proven formulas. Kind of sad when you think about it. He was leading 3DR down a typical AAA well-beaten path. No trail-blazing at all.
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User is offline   Kerr Avon 

#41

View PostZaxx, on 22 February 2019 - 12:59 AM, said:

The performance was so fucking shit on consoles that it basically was a PC exclusive.


Maybe on the PS3, I don't know as I've not played it, but I saw no problems with the frame-rate or juddering or even graphical glitches on the XBox 360 version. The loading times were longer than in most games (even from the hard-drive, as the 360 allowed you to install games to the hard drive for faster loading), but not long enough to put me off the game, and I don't think I saw any bugs or accidental clipping either. I can't say the game was technically perfect, I just don't recall any aspects of it's performance being bad enough to lodge in my memory, which granted does say much.

What really put me of the game (the XBox 360 version, the only version I've played), so much so that it ruined the game for me was the actual game design flaws, such as boring boss battles, the game feeling too linear (linear games can be great, especially if they manage to make you forget that it's linear, but in DNF you're always aware that it's linear), the enjoyment-free parts where you're shrunk down and have to do the tedious platform or driving scenes, the weapon carrying limit, the recharging health, no feeling of achievement when you did something, the game world feeling artificial (even though it's no more artificial than in most games, strangely), blah blah blah.

But most of all, because DNF was boring. And the worst fault a game can have is to be boring, and not make you want to continue playing it. A fairly enjoyable game that's too short, has awful graphics, is very badly bugged, and a story that makes no sense, is still miles and miles better than a boring game. Even a boring game with DNF's (very few) good points like good graphics (I think, but then I still play on the N64 and PS2, so I'm not too great at judging graphics as I'm used to really old and simple graphics too), some good weapons, no crashes (that I can remember), and no unskippable cutscenes (again, as far as I can remember).






View PostMusicallyInspired, on 22 February 2019 - 06:23 AM, said:

Were there weapon wheels out at the time? Doesn't matter. This kind of proves that George wasn't doing a whole love of innovating and really thinking about how to solve problems. Just concerned with copying proven formulas. Kind of sad when you think about it. He was leading 3DR down a typical AAA well-beaten path. No trail-blazing at all.


The earliest console FPS that I know of that had a weapon wheel for weapon selection was the N64 version Turok 2, released in 1998. For some reason, the weapon wheel method didn't seem to catch on with many console FPSs, some games had it, but others just went with other methods, such as assigning the weapons to the D-Pad (such as the way Half-Life 2 on the original XBox and the XBox 360 divided the weapons up into four classes, and you quick-selected the weapons by pressing the D-Pad once or twice or three times using the D-Pad direction related to the class of the weapon, a method similar to how you did it on the PC version of the game, and it worked really well on the consoles.

It's not unusual to see a weapon wheel on a console FPS, but it's not a given, either. Though if you ask me, it should be included in all console FPSs in case anyone wants to use it. I've always said the player should be given choices in control settings, regardless of the hardware platform.
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User is offline   MusicallyInspired 

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#42

Now that I think of it, Duke64 had a similar control scheme to Turok regarding weapon selection. But that's not really a wheel. That's still only selecting one weapon at a time via next/prev weapon controls. A true weapon wheel shows all the weapons on screen by holding down a button, selecting the weapon with the stick, then releasing the button (Doom 2016), no?
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User is offline   Kerr Avon 

#43

View PostMusicallyInspired, on 22 February 2019 - 08:00 AM, said:

Now that I think of it, Duke64 had a similar control scheme to Turok regarding weapon selection. But that's not really a wheel. That's still only selecting one weapon at a time via next/prev weapon controls. A true weapon wheel shows all the weapons on screen by holding down a button, selecting the weapon with the stick, then releasing the button (Doom 2016), no?


No, I said that Turok 2, not the first Turok, had the weapon wheel (which does show you all of your carried weapons in a sort of circle, and you select your weapon that way). In Turok 1 and DN64, you had to move sequentially through the weapons that you carried to get to the one you wanted to select. That's not an ideal weapon selection method, especially if the game has quite a few weapons, or if you need to changed weapons very quickly, but it is the one that's most common on console FPS, especially in the older games. Quite a few console FPSs do offer a second way of selecting a weapon other than going backwards or forwards through them, such as being able to pause the game and select your weapon from a quick menu, or being able to assign a weapon choice to a D-Pad direction, but since nowadays most FPs are Halo/CoD wannabees with just a couple of weapons, the only control needed is a single button for 'Swap weapon'. Apparently it's called progress... :angry:

Here is Turok 2's Weapon Wheel (which, if I remember rightly is not a default option, you have to select either a weapon wheel, or the usual console FPS weapon-selection method (move forward or backwards though the weapons)in the options menu, so you can only use one of the two weapon-selection methods during the game, unlike most games that offer two or more options, as they tend to allow all options to be usable in game at any time:

http://www.micro-64.com/features/turok2/weaponreta.png


Mind you, the way gaming is being dumbed down for a larger and more casual audience, modern developers probably think that having a choice of two weapons might be too demanding for some gamers, and so the next generation of FPSs will just have one weapon in the entire game. And given the ever growing effects of extreme political correctness on culture and free speech, the games' 'weapon' probably won't be a gun or anything else that can cause harm, it will be (as the games' developers will put it) "Not a weapon in the conventional sense, but instead it will be the far more powerful spoken word. The player's character will be a straight, respectful male who is fully ashamed of his being male, and straight, because (as we far-left people all know, even though the evidence contradicts us) only straight males are bad and evil, all women/gays/non-whites are lovely people who never do anything wrong."

"And the game's hero, having learned that all bad things are cause by straight white males, will use his wholesome and thoroughly non-gender specific, non-violent, non-discriminatory modern attitude of superior wisdom and newly found self-hatred, to explain to violent/evil/angry white males that they should stop being evil, and if they don't then they'll end up in prison. Even though we (the extreme politcal left) are trying to get prisons closed down because we don't believe that prison stops crime (why take note of the mountains of evidence, when we can just believe what we want to believe?) and prisoners all are lovely people who just rape and kill because they were never told not to, it was all their parents' fault
".

Yep, the next Duke Nukem game might be the one where, instead of shooting the enemies who want to kill you, you instead go around giving those enemies leaflets about the evil of violence, and, if necessary, forcing them to have group hugs and going to seminars where they're told not to commit murder, and warned that if they do kill anyone, then they'll have to do some community work. BECAUSE COMMUNITY SERVICE WORKS, BUT PRISON DOES NOT.

And then the game will get banned just before release, because it's the year 2025, and we're all so brain-washed by "the ban free speech", "don't think for yourself", "you can say anything you like, provided it's something we agree with" mindset that the game will be banned because Duke is wearing blue trousers, and there's a worry that the colour blue might offend one armed transvestites because the word 'blue' rhymes with the word 'Sue', and one of the transvestites might call itself* 'Sue''.



* I say 'Itself" since by 2025 it might well be illegal to say "He" or "She", so we'll all have to say "It" when referring to anyone be they male or female, tall or short, fat or thin....

This post has been edited by Kerr Avon: 22 February 2019 - 10:37 AM

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User is online   Zaxx 

#44

Also: BioShock had a weapon wheel. Even some older PC shooters like Undying had weapon wheels to compliment weapon and item selection.

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 22 February 2019 - 12:47 PM

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User is offline   MusicallyInspired 

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#45

Ah nice. So it was just lazy thinking and planning.
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User is online   Zaxx 

#46

I love this ad for the Burial at Sea DLC of Bioshock Infinite btw.:
https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/qPsmKiNMBtOVPWpSTyOI2jiP9Wk=/85x0:1014x619/920x613/filters:focal(85x0:1014x619):format(webp)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/20894669/naopcgw.0.jpg
This is the friend George should have found too. :D
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#47

Resistance Fall of Man had a weapon wheel as well and that was late 2006. Sadly, Resistance 2 dropped that and went with a 2 weapon limit.
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User is offline   Tea Monster 

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#48

View PostMusicallyInspired, on 22 February 2019 - 12:50 PM, said:

Ah nice. So it was just lazy thinking and planning.

Yeah, there are loads of games that have mulitple weapons at once and the console doesn't explode and people's fingers don't fall off. That is why the console excuse was so annoying - it's a non-entity.

Half Life 2 came out in 2004 and it used the D-pad to scroll through loads of weapons.
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User is offline   Kathy 

#49

View PostFuturetime23, on 22 February 2019 - 01:43 PM, said:

Resistance Fall of Man had a weapon wheel as well and that was late 2006. Sadly, Resistance 2 dropped that and went with a 2 weapon limit.

And Resistance felt old schoolish(it also aged quite a bit). Resistance 2 on the other hand went full CoD with 2 weapon limit, regen health and disjointed levels. It was still all right, though. But once you get into first Resistance it felt better and more adventurous to continue. Also, Europe. It obviously channelled that WW2 feel.
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#50

View PostTea Monster, on 23 February 2019 - 06:47 AM, said:

Yeah, there are loads of games that have mulitple weapons at once and the console doesn't explode and people's fingers don't fall off. That is why the console excuse was so annoying - it's a non-entity.

What is even more annoying is that the console excuse is basically a lie to hide the real reason behind a 2 weapon system.

Bioshock Infinite had a 2 weapon system instead of the weapon wheel of the previous games while the game's marketing decidedly took a turn to portray Infinite as this cool game where you're a cool dude shooting at things. When the controversy for the "man with a gun" cover art came up Ken Levine even admitted that there was an aim to market the game towards "fratboys" ~ idiots.

Two weapons are easier to manage during gameplay than a full arsenal (less decisions, less fiddling with buttons) and on top of that it was Halo and Call of Duty that popularized that mechanic = games that fratboys play too. The general idea is that if you want a successful mass market product then you have to appeal to the biggest audience possible = you'll want to use the two weapon limit from CoD because that's what everyone knows.

If you wrap your head around that then DNF's "Douche Nukem" will make a lot more sense too. By the end the goal of 3D Realms was not to make a good Duke game but rather to make a product for the mass market that will sell tons of copies (ironically this is partially why the game failed).

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 23 February 2019 - 12:44 PM

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User is offline   Lazy Dog 

#51

not only are you limited to 2 weapons, but for most of them you can carry very little ammo.
also 4 pipebombs. seriously? previous game i could carry 50!

This post has been edited by Lazy Dog: 23 February 2019 - 05:28 PM

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User is offline   Kathy 

#52

View PostZaxx, on 23 February 2019 - 12:41 PM, said:

What is even more annoying is that the console excuse is basically a lie to hide the real reason behind a 2 weapon system.

Bioshock Infinite had a 2 weapon system instead of the weapon wheel of the previous games while the game's marketing decidedly took a turn to portray Infinite as this cool game where you're a cool dude shooting at things. When the controversy for the "man with a gun" cover art came up Ken Levine even admitted that there was an aim to market the game towards "fratboys" ~ idiots.

Two weapons are easier to manage during gameplay than a full arsenal (less decisions, less fiddling with buttons) and on top of that it was Halo and Call of Duty that popularized that mechanic = games that fratboys play too. The general idea is that if you want a successful mass market product then you have to appeal to the biggest audience possible = you'll want to use the two weapon limit from CoD because that's what everyone knows.

Most likely George just didn't like switching weapons on gamepad and "unnecessary" complexity in having too many weapons at once. In a way, he became a fratboy since he constantly played on 360 at that time.

2 weapon system probably is convenient when the game is designed around that. I certainly never felt that CoD suffered from having that limit, but to tack on the same system on DNF was plainly wrong. Not sure if he still believes he/they did the right thing.

Quote

If you wrap your head around that then DNF's "Douche Nukem" will make a lot more sense too. By the end the goal of 3D Realms was not to make a good Duke game but rather to make a product for the mass market that will sell tons of copies (ironically this is partially why the game failed).

Duke was changed a bit towards douchiness after Gearbox took over, so we don't know if 3dr would approve it.
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User is online   Zaxx 

#53

View PostKathy, on 24 February 2019 - 12:56 PM, said:

2 weapon system probably is convenient when the game is designed around that.

Sure, it can be good game design if most of the weapons are very similar to each other or if most weapons can be used as your bread and butter. But in DNF? Your bread and butter weapon is the shotgun so that will take up one slot all the damn time limiting your choices to 1 slot basically and even that stops being the case when you're facing a boss because they need explosive weapons. On top of that Duke always had less useful / situational but fun and exotic weapons like the freezer and the shrinker... with a 2 weapon limit you basically exclude them from the gameplay.

And then you have problems like Duke's golden pistol: it looks fun but you will throw it away because of the weapon limit so have fun picking up regular, boring looking pistols after that. :D But hey, at least they patched in the option to have 4 weapons.

Quote

Duke was changed a bit towards douchiness after Gearbox took over, so we don't know if 3dr would approve it.

Sure but honestly I never felt that Gearbox had much creative input and if I take all the other bad creative decisions the game has into consideration I don't think 3DR was above pulling something like that (though GBX has been using the Douche Nukem design ever since DNF).

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 24 February 2019 - 05:34 PM

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#54

I like the Duke model that they are using as a portrayal of the visual aspect of Duke Nukem. The problem is that image of Duke is so linked with the game's scripted portrayal of Douche Nukem. I think that if they made a decent game, it would work.
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User is offline   MusicallyInspired 

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#55

Ugh no. I've never liked his look. His character doesn't enter into it. They changed his Raybans to some other generic brand of modern sunglasses, change his adult crew cut to adolescent frat-boy spiked gelled hair, and turned his red muscleshirt into some kind of special issue black-trimmed "Duke uniform." His jeans aren't even blue. They're like a dark navy or even gray. I hated everything about it. If it wasn't Jon St. John's voice coming out of him I wouldn't have even been able to accept him as Duke at all. At least you don't have to look at him too much while playing the game.

This post has been edited by MusicallyInspired: 27 February 2019 - 09:10 AM

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User is online   Zaxx 

#56

 MusicallyInspired, on 27 February 2019 - 09:08 AM, said:

His jeans aren't even blue.

Well...
https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/BzQ0FtVBAE5k2qdr_O2nlz_ox-w=/0x0:1440x810/1200x800/filters:focal(578x203:808x433)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/54697719/duke-nukem-3d-art_1440.0.0.jpg
But yeah, his DNF model is pretty bad.
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User is offline   Lazy Dog 

#57

 Zaxx, on 27 February 2019 - 03:42 PM, said:

Well...
https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/BzQ0FtVBAE5k2qdr_O2nlz_ox-w=/0x0:1440x810/1200x800/filters:focal(578x203:808x433)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/54697719/duke-nukem-3d-art_1440.0.0.jpg
But yeah, his DNF model is pretty bad.


his jeans are blue in-game, and those weapons aren't even in the game. Covers always Lie
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User is offline   MusicallyInspired 

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#58

That scene also has a heavy red/yellow light source hue which cancels out blue to black.

This post has been edited by MusicallyInspired: 27 February 2019 - 05:00 PM

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User is offline   Jesus is King 

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#59

Douche Nukem is demonstrably a Triptych/Gearbox creation. Don't forget that when development was finishing up at 3DR, their big reveal to drum up interest was the new Duke model (Bruce Willis Duke) for the 2007 Christmas teaser. It not the best Duke ever, but it worked better than Douche Nukem.

They were drumming up interest to gain further funding from Take Two. If you watch the (obnoxious) Jace Hall Show footage of the game, you'll notice that it's the Willis Duke/OG yellow gloves all the way up to the point he's in Gearbox's studio, where a new player model and gloves appear.

The mischaracterization of Duke was 100% Triptych and Gearbox. Again, George made many fatal mistakes but he would have never released DNF as it was released.

This post has been edited by Jimmy 100MPH: 28 February 2019 - 10:13 PM

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#60

The "Bruce Willis" look was a bit misleading. He only looked like Bruce Willis while he was preparing to blow smoke. After that animation he went back to normal, looking like the Duke in those early promo images with Duke looking over his shoulder etc.

Also, it's worth noting that when Gearbox was first showing off DNF they had people watch the trailer behind closed doors and cameras weren't allowed to film. Someone inside got a photo, though, and the Duke that was used was the older 3DR Duke. After they were ready they released the same trailer to the public but it had the new Douche model instead. I'm sure that was no accident. I wonder what the reason was to change the image, though. It's like they were very particular about it.

This post has been edited by MusicallyInspired: 28 February 2019 - 11:07 PM

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