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Duke Being Put To Pasture?

User is offline   Zaxx 

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#91

Even Wolf 3D had this piece of flavor text that actually defines BJ pretty well:
Posted Image
And if you compare this to the Blazko we know now it fits perfectly even though he was fleshed out a lot morein TNO.

Quote

You can't have him tipping strippers, you can't have pig cops, all that shit would seem odd and jarring (not to mention politically iffy) if any of the characters are given a back story IMO.

Why couldn't he tip strippers? A new game should absolutely make that stuff into a mission objective instead of a goof, really: something like a stripper has a key you need to progress but she'll only give it to you if you tip her so you gotta find some money lying around... bam, you made key items that fit the realistic presentation of Duke maps better than keycards AND you tipped a stripper. :D Hell, even DNF's terrible strip club level might have worked if it was just a regular Duke 3D style map in a strip club where you have to collect unique key items.

As for pig cops: I sure as shit wouldn't have pig cops in a new Duke game, I'd just have people turning into pigs (cops included of course + for once there should be a Duke game where you can witness a man turning into a pig). It makes more sense that way.

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 05 February 2019 - 02:52 PM

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User is online   MusicallyInspired 

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#92

I really miss the 90s when none of this stuff was iffy. The ridiculousness is pathetic.

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User is offline   Zaxx 

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#93

 MusicallyInspired, on 05 February 2019 - 02:58 PM, said:

I really miss the 90s when none of this stuff was iffy. The ridiculousness is pathetic.

The Japanese version of Resident Evil 3 said that Jill can't push the giant bell because she's a woman... that wasn't in the US version and nobody complained about it (that version just said "you can't push it").

Tipping a stripper is not iffy though, it's just about supporting a working girl. :D
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User is online   MusicallyInspired 

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#94

Depends on who you talk to.

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User is offline   Trooper Dan 

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#95

 thricecursed, on 05 February 2019 - 01:56 PM, said:

So if you take away the "over the top" attitude, what are you really left with? This is all Duke is and always has been. There's no way to change that without destroying the essence of the character.


Nothing about my idea for a backstory suggests that Duke's attitude should be changed. If anything, it's an attempt to explain why he has that attitude.
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User is offline   Kathy 

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#96

It's better not to go into childhood, unless you really need to. I don't think any Arnie's (action) movies were dealing with the childhood. Having a profession or previous occupation would be enough. "Soldier", "Cop", "Wrestling fighter" or whatever is enough to define who the character is. And build from that later in the game. Hell, you can even just say that Duke is a video game character. Although you'd need to have clever writers for that to work if you want to have some character progression.

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User is offline   Trooper Dan 

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#97

View PostKathy, on 05 February 2019 - 08:12 PM, said:

It's better not to go into childhood, unless you really need to. I don't think any Arnie's (action) movies were dealing with the childhood. Having a profession or previous occupation would be enough. "Soldier", "Cop", "Wrestling fighter" or whatever is enough to define who the character is. And build from that later in the game. Hell, you can even just say that Duke is a video game character. Although you'd need to have clever writers for that to work if you want to have some character progression.


This has happened more than once to me on these forums... I make a suggestion about a backstory, and then someone replies with "but we shouldn't have that in the game."

I agree that Duke's backstory does not need to be featured prominently in the game. It could be only hinted at, or be explained in an audio log, or not be in the game at all, but still inform the writers.

My point was really that Duke having a backstory is completely compatible with his being the character we know from Duke 3D. There's nothing about giving him a backstory that has to change the way he currently is, and it could even provide context that makes him more likeable or identifiable, if that is desired.
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User is offline   thricecursed 

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#98

View PostTrooper Dan, on 05 February 2019 - 08:32 PM, said:

This has happened more than once to me on these forums... I make a suggestion about a backstory, and then someone replies with "but we shouldn't have that in the game."

I agree that Duke's backstory does not need to be featured prominently in the game. It could be only hinted at, or be explained in an audio log, or not be in the game at all, but still inform the writers.

My point was really that Duke having a backstory is completely compatible with his being the character we know from Duke 3D. There's nothing about giving him a backstory that has to change the way he currently is, and it could even provide context that makes him more likeable or identifiable, if that is desired.


Sure, if your backstory is such a minor detail in the game, then I see no issues with it. I suppose then the question becomes - what kind of game will it be in actuality?

And yeah, I miss the 90s too, a lot actually. The culture of today leads me to believe that if D3D came out today, it would be treated like Postal 2 pretty much. i.e. be considered a success if it finds a niche audience, but otherwise, don't expect great sales unless you purposely go for the controversy angle. Don't think anyone except an indie developer will take risks like that, though.

I actually predict a swing back from this current "snowflake culture" to masculinity being valued again. Like have any of you seen those new APA guidelines that were published? "Men need to change". There's no way this shit can last, it's pissing off too many people.
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User is online   fuegerstef 

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#99

@Trooper Dan: Most people lack the imagination and the fantasy how to imagine and write a good story or backstory for a character. They fear change to a character they know because they cannot imagine how it could work. So, don't worry about others immediately downplaying the idea of a backstory.

What would change the character and take away from what he currently is, is a story that would go back to his youth or childhood, though (IMHO). An oldschoold game character should have enough blank spaces that are filled by the players' imagination (a little bit like we imagined Han Solo's past before we got shown a terrible bland and boring version of his past in Solo). You can hint at his adult past, though, to achieve a lot.

Just a quick example of a backstory that could be hinted at (opposed to showing it in detail): Duke was once a Marine or other soldier but quit because his superior was involved in some criminal activities and even ordered the squad Duke was in to commit hidden crimes (Duke figured it out and fought the superior). He left the army (and maybe even got money to not talk about the incidents*). Due to his abilities he now is hired in special cases by the EDF but isn't officially part of it as he now likes his independace after the incidents in the army (at the same time showing his moral integrity).

But how could that all work in today's society: Give him Bombshell as the secend main character. But not the Bombshell from the game Bombshell (she is, IMHO, boring and bland in design and character). Maybe a middle ground from the Ion Maiden and the Alien Carnage-Version. And as the original 3DR had planned her: She is a strong character that Duke cannot easily score. Give him a strong female partner. Not for political correctness ingame but for balance.
The overall writing should be like in Meat Grinder in DNF where Duke drives the talking toy car with the voices from the twins. The twins say stuff that represents the worst of the bimbos of today and Duke is disgusted by it (he only moans but never directly comments on it, so people can fill in why Duke is disgusted (the voices, the situation or the stuff they say)). And then this scene is a parody of reality that is worse than sexy oiled babes.

There is actually a campaign by feminists in Germany that says: "Sexy yes. Sexism no." As an example they show an image of a sexy babe in a nice bra sitting on a chair photographed from slightly above so that you can see ... well, her sexy breasts. Below it says: "Bra. $29,95" and later "Sexy, yes". Then the same image is used saying: "Chair $129,95" and below: "Sexism, no".
This is, IMHO,what can work. Leave the sexy babes in, but use it in the right context not reducing the ingame women to her bodies. Give them brains, character and strength.



*) Would need to be figured out, if it fits the character. As said. All is just a quick example.

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This post has been edited by fuegerstef: 06 February 2019 - 02:14 AM

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User is online   MusicallyInspired 

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#100

The mere existence of a backstory makes things too dramatic. Duke has never been about the feels as far as his character is concerned. It's too somber. Either that or it would be downright Mel Brooks/Leslie Neilsen ironic parody. Neither are appropriate. It's had a creepy and oppressive atmosphere but that's had nothing to do with relating to Duke's character other than sharing the desire to overcome such monumental obstacles and defeat evil. I don't think Duke is someone meant to be related to. Not all protagonists need to be relatable. They could be admired and revered. Something everyone looks up to and aspires to but doesn't actually exist. Larger than life. Classic meta-hero storytelling. Whatever happened to that? This is why I think Marvel stories are overrated. I don't need to feel sympathetic to Duke. He's not equal or lesser than me to feel that sort of sympathy. He's above me. You can argue that that just makes a character rigid with no arc, but I don't see why that has to be a bad thing. A story can still be good without that. What kind of story arc does Duke even need to have that would be appropriate to his character?

I'm not saying a Duke game can't have a good story, but as soon as people start talking about Duke's past and what "made him this way" my eyes roll back into my head three times over. You're missing the point.

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This post has been edited by MusicallyInspired: 06 February 2019 - 08:09 AM

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User is offline   Kathy 

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#101

View Postfuegerstef, on 06 February 2019 - 02:06 AM, said:

There is actually a campaign by feminists in Germany that says: "Sexy yes. Sexism no." As an example they show an image of a sexy babe in a nice bra sitting on a chair photographed from slightly above so that you can see ... well, her sexy breasts. Below it says: "Bra. $29,95" and later "Sexy, yes". Then the same image is used saying: "Chair $129,95" and below: "Sexism, no".

Wow, what an awesome example. Was actually thinking yesterday about the proper example and there it is.

https://pinkstinks.d...yyes.jpg?x61180

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This post has been edited by Kathy: 06 February 2019 - 08:10 AM

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User is offline   Zaxx 

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#102

View PostMusicallyInspired, on 06 February 2019 - 08:06 AM, said:

The mere existence of a backstory makes things too dramatic. Duke has never been about the feels as far as his character is concerned. It's too somber. Either that or it would be downright Mel Brooks/Leslie Neilsen ironic parody. Neither are appropriate.

Don't take this the wrong way but this opinion only tells me one thing: that you're not a man of nuance. :D Just because Duke is more "grounded" (in a character sense) that doesn't mean that he becomes realistic, boring or a drama queen. In fact the great thing about entertainment is that you can walk a line where you can present ridiculous stuff in a semi-realistic fashion to really sell it.

Sorry for bringing up Resident Evil 2 again but the remake does this the right way: every single RE fan expects an RE game to be campy so the remake had to provide that content but Capcom also wanted to present the whole thing in a more serious fashion. So the atmosphere and visual design got a realistic tone and the characters got fleshed out a lot more too but their campy roots were kept intact. How? Easy: the new game uses camp to provide a bit of levity. You're descending into the terrifying sewers with Claire, she jumps into the water, says "Now I'm gonna smell like shit... literally!" and then you're like "oh, that was such a Claire thing to say" and you laugh not because the joke itself was that good but because you didn't expect it to be there.

The bottom line: if Duke's world and his character was presented in bit a more serious fashion even his one-liners would work better. When I played Duke 3D as a kid some of the maps and enemies were pretty terrifying to me and I loved that I'm playing as a dude who treats all of that like it was nothing... and I think that's why I like Duke's jokes honestly. That's the experience that's worth bringing back.

Edit: Also: I really don't like how some parts of Duke 3D and the entirety of DNF treats Duke as ha was an "action figure" visually. That took a lot of the grit away from him for me, the man should look more realistic, like this:
Posted Image

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 06 February 2019 - 09:40 AM

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User is online   MusicallyInspired 

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#103

I don't mind things being serious. In fact, I welcome it after the parody disaster Douche Nukem Forever. But I can't get behind backstories. Unless it was something very simple and in relatively recent history. Like, why he's so good and/or passionate about fighting aliens specifically. We know why Doomguy fights demons. But why does Duke always end up with aliens (minus the first game)? But that's not really anything about his character. I picture him the same type of guy before and after his first encounter with aliens. I just don't need to know anything more about Duke than I already did and if I did I think it would just feel like someone was try to spice him up for the sake of it and not because he actually needs it. Too many ingredients in the recipe or something. Trying to be overly complex. Duke is a simple man and he only needs a simple character.

And yes, Duke was way too monstrous in DNF.

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This post has been edited by MusicallyInspired: 06 February 2019 - 10:13 AM

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User is offline   Trooper Dan 

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#104

In defense of MusicallyInspired, and even though I suggested a backstory myself: some popular characters got along very successfully for many years without backstories or character arcs (e.g. James Bond). And if Duke has no backstory, that will insure he doesn't have a bad one. :D

I agree with whoever said earlier that a smaller Indy developer would be much likely to make a good new Duke game. Gearbox is the wrong kind of company for the job. And I say that as a Borderlands fan. I like Gearbox for the most part, but they are too corporate and too big to do the right thing.
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User is offline   Zaxx 

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#105

View PostTrooper Dan, on 06 February 2019 - 11:26 AM, said:

some popular characters got along very successfully for many years without backstories or character arcs (e.g. James Bond). And if Duke has no backstory, that will insure he doesn't have a bad one. :D

In the case of Bond though his backstory is there, especially in the Daniel Craig installments, it's just not shoved into your face. Why is he just using women instead of getting into a serious relationship? He tried love with Vesper Lynd but got fucked over badly and that's how the classic vodka-martini drinking, womanizing asshole we know and love got created. :D Overall Casino Royale and Skyfall did a lot of character building by filling in some of the blanks but they still kept things mysterious enough and just very true to the character. In the case of Bond that was easy to do though since Casino Royale was Ian Fleming's first Bond book, it's just that we had to wait until 2006 for an adaptation.
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User is online   MusicallyInspired 

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#106

Serious Sam.

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User is offline   High Treason 

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#107

A part of me likes the idea of a backstory that is contradictory and only ever hinted at. For example, it might be suggested that Duke was in the army, but then somewhere else it might be suggested he was in the marines, then somewhere else that he worked for the CIA (technically he did¹), that he's been thrown out of them, that they thought he was still in jail, that they thought he was still fighting in the second great swamp war in whatever craphole country. It'd serve it's purpose of saying Duke's a badass who loves action, but it'd stop anyone forming a solid picture, either he's impossibly talented or else the stories are just that; stories, either told by Duke or blown out of proportion by his many admirers over the years.

¹ And he is a self-proclaimed hero after all, so such a story probably wouldn't be out of place, it'd stroke Duke's ego and he'd surely like this, so would never bother to correct anyone.
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This post has been edited by High Treason: 06 February 2019 - 04:20 PM

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User is offline   Trooper Dan 

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#108

View PostZaxx, on 06 February 2019 - 01:41 PM, said:

In the case of Bond though his backstory is there, especially in the Daniel Craig installments, it's just not shoved into your face. Why is he just using women instead of getting into a serious relationship? He tried love with Vesper Lynd but got fucked over badly and that's how the classic vodka-martini drinking, womanizing asshole we know and love got created. :D Overall Casino Royale and Skyfall did a lot of character building by filling in some of the blanks but they still kept things mysterious enough and just very true to the character. In the case of Bond that was easy to do though since Casino Royale was Ian Fleming's first Bond book, it's just that we had to wait until 2006 for an adaptation.


That was why in my post I specifically had the qualifier "for many years" -- I was aware of the Craig stuff but I was referring to classic Bond. Shesh, I have to spell everything out.
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User is offline   Jimmy 100MPH 

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#109

Anyone attempting to add so much exposition to a Duke game doesn't understand why the series ever worked. Doom 2016 is a great example of how to create a deep lore in the modern era that, ultimately, doesn't even fucking matter. See, you need your world to feel like it's fleshed out, otherwise it feels fake. But you should never shove it in a player's face to the point they roll their eyes. Doom 3 had a lot of this. I don't want to be reading fucking PDAs and shit all day. Ultimately I want to be fucking shooting things. People forget that much of Duke's established personality in Duke 3D was an afterthought.

In order to make a good Duke game, you need to make a good game. Duke is barely a viable character, and that's okay. Trying to make him a viable character is immediately a red flag that your game is going to be shit, because what you need to focus on is viable gameplay. Duke 3D is a fun game even if you cut out all the one liners, strippers, and sight gags. It's a well made game.

The AAA Games Industry is incapable of making a good game at the current time. Due to other market forces, making a good game that also has Duke Nukem in it is a really bad idea. It would be expensive with little return on investment. It is best that Duke dies, for now. He could come back at a later date, but at the moment, this is a nonstarter from the beginning. I wouldn't even consider it until the end of the Trump era in 2025.

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This post has been edited by Jimmy 100MPH: 06 February 2019 - 05:35 PM

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User is online   MusicallyInspired 

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#110

One thing Gearbox is doing darned well (assuming it's true) is that they're not accepting any pitch ideas for a Duke Nukem game that's based on story or character. Randy has said it has to be more gameplay-oriented. He's spot on there. I still don't think Gearbox has it in them to make a Duke game (which is why they haven't yet), but at least they partly know what they shouldn't do.

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This post has been edited by MusicallyInspired: 06 February 2019 - 11:02 PM

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User is offline   Zaxx 

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#111

That sounds good but it's more like the usual narrow minded Gearbox idiotism if I remember correctly: Randy said something like that the next Duke needs to have a unique gameplay mechanic that will destroy the market. It's not a kickass shooter they want but a new gimmick you can sell your shit with. I don't trust those fucks to do anything good honestly.

Edit: Anyway I'd be interested to hear what you guys think of what this unique gameplay mechanic should be. Maybe we can come up with something that's not a gimmick but a legitimite "game changer" that fits Duke well too?

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 07 February 2019 - 03:12 AM

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User is offline   Zaxx 

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#112

View PostTrooper Dan, on 06 February 2019 - 05:18 PM, said:

That was why in my post I specifically had the qualifier "for many years" -- I was aware of the Craig stuff but I was referring to classic Bond. Shesh, I have to spell everything out.

Well, you kinda have to since at this point even the newest version of Bond is old so I just understood "for many years" as a general expression ("it's an old franchise") instead of something that's relevant to what you're talking about. :D Casino Royale is 13 years old at this point.

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 07 February 2019 - 01:21 AM

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User is online   axl 

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#113

View PostJimmy 100MPH, on 06 February 2019 - 05:34 PM, said:

Anyone attempting to add so much exposition to a Duke game doesn't understand why the series ever worked. Doom 2016 is a great example of how to create a deep lore in the modern era that, ultimately, doesn't even fucking matter. See, you need your world to feel like it's fleshed out, otherwise it feels fake. But you should never shove it in a player's face to the point they roll their eyes. Doom 3 had a lot of this. I don't want to be reading fucking PDAs and shit all day. Ultimately I want to be fucking shooting things. People forget that much of Duke's established personality in Duke 3D was an afterthought.


This. When it comes to fps games, I always think about that John Carmack quote "Story in a game is like a story in a porn movie. It's expected to be there, but it's not that important."

And when it comes to BJ blazkowicz, I have mixed feelings about his re-incarantion in New Order and New Colossus... It was OK, I guess, but was it necessary ? No, cause in the end, Return to Castle Wolfenstein still remains by far the best one in the series. It's exactly what you said: ultimately, the only thing I want to do in an old-school, arcade FPS game, is to shoot things.
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User is offline   Jimmy 100MPH 

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#114

RTCW is god-tier.

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User is offline   Zaxx 

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#115

I just dunno why is it the implication that if a Duke game had a bigger emphasis on storytelling the gameplay would suffer because of it, especially after Doom 2016.

And the thing is that even though Duke as a character was an afterthought even in Duke 3D the King himself certainly was a huge factor in that game's success. I don't think that people want a Duke game where the story is a central thing but they want more of Duke and if done right the overall feeling of that would be just that: more Duke in a Duke game.
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User is online   Mark 

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#116

View PostZaxx, on 07 February 2019 - 12:22 AM, said:


Edit: Anyway I'd be interested to hear what you guys think of what this unique gameplay mechanic should be. Maybe we can come up with something that's not a gimmick but a legitimite "game changer" that fits Duke well too?


You can only reinvent the wheel so many times. Its gonna be a tough nut to crack. And other cliches...
Duke manages to get his hands on 1 of the Gems from Thanos's glove. :lol:

This post has been edited by Mark: 07 February 2019 - 12:38 PM

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User is offline   Nancsi 

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#117

View PostJimmy 100MPH, on 06 February 2019 - 05:34 PM, said:

Duke 3D is a fun game even if you cut out all the one liners, strippers, and sight gags.


These are the thing that aged poorly during the last decade or so. Playing Lunar Apocalypse with silent mode on is still as good as it was in 1996.
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User is offline   Nancsi 

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#118

I would love to see a Wrack style art in a Duke game. The game failed on many levels, but it's unique cartoony art was very interesting, and it would fit well with Duke's charcter. No wonder Bobby Prince was involved in that game.
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User is online   MusicallyInspired 

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#119

View PostZaxx, on 07 February 2019 - 09:56 AM, said:

I just dunno why is it the implication that if a Duke game had a bigger emphasis on storytelling the gameplay would suffer because of it, especially after Doom 2016.

And the thing is that even though Duke as a character was an afterthought even in Duke 3D the King himself certainly was a huge factor in that game's success. I don't think that people want a Duke game where the story is a central thing but they want more of Duke and if done right the overall feeling of that would be just that: more Duke in a Duke game.


I'm right there with you, man. Give me more Duke.

Just leave his backstory out of it. I don't care where he came from or how he used to be not as awesome as he is now. I don't want to see him vulnerable. At least not in that kind of way.

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This post has been edited by MusicallyInspired: 07 February 2019 - 02:09 PM

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User is offline   Zaxx 

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#120

View PostMark, on 07 February 2019 - 12:37 PM, said:

You can only reinvent the wheel so many times. Its gonna be a tough nut to crack. And other cliches...
Duke manages to get his hands on 1 of the Gems from Thanos's glove. :lol:

I can't come up with anything truly special but I think it'd be absolutely fine if a new Duke game explored some gameplay ideas from Duke 3D more thoroughly.

For example DNF was a shit game but there is one level in it that I absolutely adore: Duke Burger. I think that there are a lot of interesting things that a new Duke game could do with level design if Duke shrinking himself would be a more regular thing. The same goess for the HoloDuke: it's a great idea but it was broken in Duke 3D while DNF at least made it work but I think it could be brought to the next level with some more feautures. Overall I just like the idea of Duke having gadgets a lot and nowadays games are not doing that (not even Ion Maiden) so it would be a unique Duke thing.

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 07 February 2019 - 02:12 PM

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