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Duke Being Put To Pasture?

User is online   Zaxx 

  • 469

#61

View Posthismasterplan, on 03 February 2019 - 09:09 AM, said:

Here's a thought, DNF took 13 years after announcement (1998-2011). Four years from now will be 12-13 years from DNF to Duke 5, assuming it comes out 2023/2024.

In a sense, Duke 5 is DNF all over again but with no hype and no announcement which is the only positive side in all this because expectations are low. The lack of direction, desire for perfectionism, lack of results is eerily similar. History doesn't repeat, it rhymes! I'll bet that the ambulance metaphor Randy used to save DNF, will happen again, only this time another developer will save Duke 5 from Gearbox.

Randy has already said that if there is a next Duke game it won't be developed by Gearbox in house... and I think that creates a huge problem because the last time Gearbox tried outsourcing Aliens: Colonial Marines was the result. That already makes it hard for them to find a publisher and on top of that there are not many AAA publishers these days who would invest money into an IP they don't own. Making games is very expensive nowadays and nobody wants a short term investment when they have their own franchises to build.

Overall there is only one way for a new Duke I think: GBX has to sell the Duke IP (and chances are it will be the first thing they'll do if Borderlands 3 doesn't do well enough so honestly I have my fingers crossed for a BL3 flop).

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 03 February 2019 - 09:29 AM

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User is offline   Altered Reality 

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#62

View PostKathy, on 31 January 2019 - 12:56 PM, said:

He probably wouldn't know until it'd be time to record. Plus there'll be NDA for that.

Remember in 2010, when he had an NDA about DNF? We weren't even sure DNF was being developed at all, but when asked about it, he said: "I cannot talk about it. Read between the lines: why can't I talk about it?"

If your brain tells you one thing and your heart tells you another, get rid of those silly doubts and listen to your brain.
-
There is no darkness, only the absence of light.
There is no cold, only the absence of heat.
There is no faith, only the absence of logic.

This post has been edited by Altered Reality: 03 February 2019 - 10:02 AM

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User is offline   Kerr Avon 

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#63

If Gearbox /3D Realms/whoever didn't want to spend a fortune on advertising and creating an AAA (commercially speaking) Duke Nukem game (or if they just didn't have the cash to do so) then I'd be happy if they just hired some of the best modders, and gave us a new DN game in the DN3D engine. I never boot up DN3D for nostalgia or because it still wows me (it certainly doesn't, after all these years and other game based innovations), I so do because it's fun to play though yet again (or to play through a new mod), and in some ways is still more in the direction I want first person shooters to go in then they are in the modern day. You know, such as:


+ no weapon carrying limits,

+ levels that you have to explore instead of going from A to B,

+ the occasional bit of humour or reference to a film/game/book/real life event/etc to make you smile,

+ weapons that don't like identical to each other,

+ interactive things, from major (want to demolish a building?) to very minor (destroying bottles), that all make the world seem more realistic and amenable to your actions.

+ none of those scripted sequences that look great the first time though but on your third or fourth time through you are expecting them so it makes playing the game feel like you're just going through the motions, etc.,



A new AAA game that brings all this back, but with everything that DNF lacked (i.e. everthing :angry: ) would be fantastic, and I think it would sell well, even despite the anti-PC message that some people would claim the game was trying to pedal. But if that's not likely to happen, then I believe a (well made) modded DN3D would prove very popular, even with little advertising and as graphically primitive as it would be. It would be a good idea to try to include the DN3D hi-resolution project and also good 3D models for the NPCs, but even if not then I think lots of gamers would like it. Though of course, without a huge advertising budget, and modern graphical quality, then it won't sell even remotely as many copies as an AAA game would.

It's no wonder modern gaming is so bland, considering that advertising budget and graphical quality has so much more effect on sales than gameplay or replayability.
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User is offline   Tea Monster 

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#64

There is this: https://steamcommuni.../?id=1290128538

But you might find that once (if) GBX release the DNF betas, that there might be a group of fans who step forward and try to make some kind of finished game out of it.

The problem with that is that all the people who know how to do this kind of shit have all fled to the far corners of the map by now. So good luck with that!
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User is offline   gemeaux333 

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#65

View Postgemeaux333, on 03 February 2019 - 09:18 AM, said:

That a product have to be profitable (even if not so much profits are made) is the rule, because the alternative would be deficits, and what comes next is obvious : employees being laid of (because employees can't be paid to do nothing, assumingly they can be paid for regular work) at best, and the compagny getting backrupcy at worst, so yes we would always be more happy if a company make profits than the contrary...

If its a financement issue, why not making like more or less indie devs are doing : A kickstarter or Indiegogo campaign ?
This way at least the project is mainly financed by those who have interest in it, and this there is not enough at the end of the campaign, the message is clear...

When it comes to the so called "expert", it is like Sun Tzu said : "Experts are only experts when it comes to commenting whatever is perfectly obvious to anyone" !

When it comes to representation, as Nintendo said : "A petition gathering 100k signatures doesn't mean there will be 100k copies sold for this game"

P.S : Duke Nukem Forever was profitable beyond expectations, as 2K Games attested it !


And I forgot: 20th Anniversary World Tour is actually successfull according to Steam, plenty of fans from always are happy/glad to get it

This post has been edited by gemeaux333: 03 February 2019 - 11:40 AM

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User is offline   Mark 

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#66

View PostTea Monster, on 03 February 2019 - 10:52 AM, said:

There is this: https://steamcommuni.../?id=1290128538

But you might find that once (if) GBX release the DNF betas, that there might be a group of fans who step forward and try to make some kind of finished game out of it.

The problem with that is that all the people who know how to do this kind of shit have all fled to the far corners of the map by now. So good luck with that!

I was wondering what took you so long to post that link. :P
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User is online   Zaxx 

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#67

View Postgemeaux333, on 03 February 2019 - 11:38 AM, said:

And I forgot: 20th Anniversary World Tour is actually successfull according to Steam, plenty of fans from always are happy/glad to get it

Randy has already stated that they lost money on it so nope.
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User is offline   Sledgehammer 

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#68

View PostToxic34, on 31 January 2019 - 08:47 AM, said:

this could be a sign that Gearbox no longer considers Duke as a priority

Wait, making Duke games was considered their priority? Let me get all these countless Duke Nukem games made by Gearbox so I could fully appreciate this statement.

View PostMusicallyInspired, on 31 January 2019 - 04:31 PM, said:

Perhaps it's better this way. Today's dykes, faggots and sissies can't handle the Duke.

FTFY. That said, it's irrelevant, they're not target audience unless you wanted to say that developers can't handle him due to politics bullshit, but even then Western industry is afraid of a lot of things which is the main problem with Duke. Big developers/publishers have no passion for such projects nor do they have enough balls to risk, why change formula when it already works? It's actually interesting that Randy himself acknowledge the problem and I bet he's not the only one. Oldschool FPS as a genre is as dead as an RTS even if you remove politics out of it, not even small developers like to touch it with a few exceptions which most of the time are lazy attempts anyway. How many there are games like Ion Maiden on the market?

Maybe if Duke or FPS itself was made in Japan things could be different because unlike in US every niche is getting attention. Despite being a niche genre itself fighting games are probably the best way to demonstrate it since even Western developers used to make fighting games and quite a lot. Now if you remove Japanese fighting games completely you'd be left with a few exceptions which are mostly constant garbage or a few AAA games (like Injustice, MK and Killer Instinct). I'm actually glad that we have Voidpoint who can fill the niche, too bad there isn't more developers to do that.

View Postgemeaux333, on 03 February 2019 - 09:18 AM, said:

P.S : Duke Nukem Forever was profitable beyond expectations, as 2K Games attested it !

Resident Evil 6 was also very profitable (it outsold previous games actually), yet it's considered failure. In fact Capcom was shitting the bed at that time despite it being profitable and if it wasn't for their re-releases they would be long dead.

This post has been edited by Sledgehammer: 03 February 2019 - 09:32 PM

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User is online   Zaxx 

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#69

View PostSledgehammer, on 03 February 2019 - 09:27 PM, said:

Resident Evil 6 was also very profitable (it outsold previous games actually), yet it's considered failure. In fact Capcom was shitting the bed at that time despite it being profitable and if it wasn't for their re-releases they would be long dead.

That's a similar story to what happened with DNF sales and reception wise: RE6 sold a ton of copies but it was also very expensive to make. RE6 had 4 single player campaigns, all of them full of different game mechanics, set pieces, spectacle and on top of that the most expansive version of Mercenaries so it had to be very successful to make a huge profit. At the end I think Capcom could turn a respectable profit but that simply wasn't worth the risk they took + the game was received very badly by a large portion of the playerbase. That's why they decided to shake things up and change direction again with RE7 (with RE7 also being cheaper to make of course).

The situation with DNF is different in the sense that the game never had any chance to make its development budget back BUT since most of that money was spent on the game by 3D Realms and not 2K Games and Gearbox both 2K and GBX could make a profit on it. The lasting negative effect the game had on the franchise is undeniable at this point though.

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 03 February 2019 - 11:03 PM

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User is offline   gemeaux333 

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#70

I think Randy is melodramatic on World Tour as the long term profit is always more praiseworthy than the short term profit, but don't think he is going to change his mind now...

Personnally, I use to say : "The audiance you make in a few weeks you loose it in a few weeks, the audiance you make in a few years you keep it you entire life"
and I think it can be applyed to profits as well !
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User is offline   Sledgehammer 

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#71

View PostZaxx, on 03 February 2019 - 11:02 PM, said:

That's a similar story to what happened with DNF

That was my implication.
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User is offline   MrFlibble 

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#72

View Postgemeaux333, on 03 February 2019 - 11:21 PM, said:

I think Randy is melodramatic on World Tour as the long term profit is always more praiseworthy than the short term profit, but don't think he is going to change his mind now...

I'm not sure this is how the industry views this. I'd suppose that the ideal profit scenario for them is when you get the most active sales (preceded by marketing hype of course) on launch day and within the first few days or a week of launch, then some good sales within the first few months, after that this slowly reduces to trickle. It might be a steady trickle if the game is truly popular, or almost zero, but the commercial success is likely to be measured by these earnings received immediately upon launch, similar to movies.

BTW, there's a little paradox with "popular" games. Theoretically, game sellers should be interested in players buying more games, and a game that has a huge replay potential, in a certain way, works against this goal because players will keep returning to it instead of buying and playing something else. With the game industry working in a manner rather similar to the movie industry, this becomes kind of a problem because normally people don't watch a movie over and over again, while with a game like Duke3D and tons of community content, you can play all day/week. I guess that churning out paid official DLCs is the industry's way to at least in part alleviate this problem.
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User is offline   Nancsi 

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#73

I think the Sigil approach might work for future Duke3D related projects. An entire episode for free, you get extra music and items for money.
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User is offline   Sledgehammer 

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#74

View PostMrFlibble, on 04 February 2019 - 05:30 AM, said:

Theoretically, game sellers should be interested in players buying more games, and a game that has a huge replay potential, in a certain way, works against this goal because players will keep returning to it instead of buying and playing something else. With the game industry working in a manner rather similar to the movie industry, this becomes kind of a problem because normally people don't watch a movie over and over again, while with a game like Duke3D and tons of community content, you can play all day/week. I guess that churning out paid official DLCs is the industry's way to at least in part alleviate this problem.

That's quite interesting way of thought and this makes sense a lot if we speak of some particular game series especially, something like, say, CoD or worse: sport games. Also, I remember almost similar theory about purpose of constant remakes/rehashes/reboots named after original games without additional numbers or anything like that what makes it look very confusing, so it would be much more difficult to search for older original titles, for example. This was quite relevant when modern Battlefront was released, especially the second sequel to reboot (Disney even had to rename classic Battlefront 2 on Steam).
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User is offline   Tea Monster 

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#75

If they can make a guy called BJ into a modern gaming legend, then Duke should be a cinch.

Wolfenstein and Doom all topped the modern charts with solid, well-received games that built on the original ideas with new stories and enemies. Duke should be no different.
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User is offline   Mark 

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#76

How did SW do with the recent releases?

This post has been edited by Mark: 04 February 2019 - 12:43 PM

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User is offline   gemeaux333 

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#77

Great, but Lo Wang have passed from deeply racist to deeply douchey (or as we would say in French : "Connard Laqué") ! :D ;) :lol:

This post has been edited by gemeaux333: 04 February 2019 - 12:51 PM

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User is offline   fuegerstef 

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#78

I saw Ash vs. Evil Dead the last year(s) and must say that there still is a place for people like Ash/Duke and alike in the world of today.

The thing is ... i don't know if I even want a Duke game published or developed by GBX. It would probably be a "cinematic experience" (as Randy praised "Aliens - Colonial Marines", once) with gameplay and political incorrectness dumbed down to appeal to a broader market.

A new Duke game would also need new gameplay mechanics comapred to Duke 3D, IMHO. Like Doom (2016), Shadow Warrior (2013), Serious Sam and even Wolfenstein to some degree (the last three games, Old Blood included) have. They have a unique focus on a specific gameplay element that sets them apart from "normal" shooters. I cannot see GBX being creative enough to implement that into a new Duke game. And for the old gameplay we have Duke 3D with awesome content like Alien Armageddon or other mods.

A few free casual games by me: http://gamejolt.com/...uegerstef/2615/

This post has been edited by fuegerstef: 04 February 2019 - 03:01 PM

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User is online   Zaxx 

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#79

View Postfuegerstef, on 04 February 2019 - 02:59 PM, said:

The thing is ... i don't know if I even want a Duke game published or developed by GBX. It would probably be a "cinematic experience" (as Randy praised "Aliens - Colonial Marines", once) with gameplay and political incorrectness dumbed down to appeal to a broader market.

A "cinematic" Duke game would be a giant flop I think: overall the gameplay is what made Duke 3D special, if you take that away then what do you have left?

As for new gameplay mechanics I agree but most of those "new" gameplay mechanics are still in Duke 3D, mainly the inventory system. That's the thing that should be polished up and brough back because it would feel fresh nowadays.

When it comes to Gearbox though the thing is that they are just not good at making FPS. Sure, Borderlands was successful because it's a shitty looter shooter you can get addicted to but mechanically it's garbage, apart from Opposing Force I've yet to play a GBX game that feels tight. Duke really needs polished, tight controls and superb weapon feedback, Gearbox is just incapable of accomplishing that, even mouse aim feels bad in most of their titles.

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 04 February 2019 - 11:03 PM

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User is offline   thricecursed 

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#80

View PostZaxx, on 01 February 2019 - 07:56 PM, said:

and by today's audience I don't mean SJWs...


Social Justice Warrior 3D - make it a parody of modern culture in the way that Duke originally was. Call it a spiritual successor. Jokes aside, I kinda agree with you, not the specific suggestions, but I would like a character that is masculine without being a douche. It's just, in this day and age who even knows what that looks like anymore.
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User is offline   Mark 

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#81

I just look in the mirror. :lol:
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User is offline   thricecursed 

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#82

They came pretty close to my vision of ideal masculinity with BJ in New Order. Someone who is nice because he wants to be, not because he has to be. Someone who takes charge and accepts responsibility while being highly competent, yet doesn't abuse his power for personal gain. I could see ways of exploring that further. IMO the character worked because it's actually become so uncommon. I just hate that they had to turn him into a whiny dad in the second game.
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User is online   Zaxx 

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#83

Yep, in The New Order BJ was the best version of the "buff action hero" character ever made.

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 05 February 2019 - 12:25 PM

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User is offline   thricecursed 

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#84

No way to do that with Duke without turning him into something else, though. He doesn't even have a real name.

BJ was kind of a blank slate, which made him easier to write for.
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User is online   Trooper Dan 

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#85

View Postthricecursed, on 05 February 2019 - 01:02 PM, said:

No way to do that with Duke without turning him into something else, though. He doesn't even have a real name.

BJ was kind of a blank slate, which made him easier to write for.


But it's possible to give him a backstory that enhances and explains who he is, without really changing it. Some people will object to anything like that, but...fuck 'em.

Here's an example. Danek Nykiel is Polish kid born there under the communist regime in 1984. He adores American culture and is obsessed with cheesy action heroes. At the age of 8, after the fall of communism, his parents move to the USA. After living a normal life up through high school, where he is a local sports star in his small town, he joins the army. However, while extremely talented, he's a bit of a dick and not a team player -- he earns the name "Duke Nukem" (not a compliment) and soon gets himself in trouble. He is about to be dishonorably discharged, but an agent from a secret branch of EDF intervenes and recruits him. As an EDF special agent, Duke is given much more autonomy and can kick ass using his own rules.
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User is offline   MusicallyInspired 

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#86

Duke is American.

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User is online   Trooper Dan 

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#87

View PostMusicallyInspired, on 05 February 2019 - 01:45 PM, said:

Duke is American.


So is Arnold Schwarzenegger.
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User is offline   thricecursed 

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#88

View PostTrooper Dan, on 05 February 2019 - 01:43 PM, said:

But it's possible to give him a backstory that enhances and explains who he is, without really changing it. Some people will object to anything like that, but...fuck 'em.

Here's an example. Danek Nykiel is Polish kid born there under the communist regime in 1984. He adores American culture and is obsessed with cheesy action heroes. At the age of 8, after the fall of communism, his parents move to the USA. After living a normal life up through high school, where he is a local sports star in his small town, he joins the army. However, while extremely talented, he's a bit of a dick and not a team player -- he earns the name "Duke Nukem" (not a compliment) and soon gets himself in trouble. He is about to be dishonorably discharged, but an agent from a secret branch of EDF intervenes and recruits him. As an EDF special agent, Duke is given much more autonomy and can kick ass using his own rules.


The problem with this is that whereas BJ didn't really have a personality, he did have a name and sort of a backstory (we know he's a polish jew). Duke is the polar opposite - he is all personality, in a really superficial way. His commentary, his motivations (saving babes from an alien invasion, etc), but he lacks anything deeper. So if you take away the "over the top" attitude, what are you really left with? This is all Duke is and always has been. There's no way to change that without destroying the essence of the character. By that point, you're better off creating something entirely new.

This post has been edited by thricecursed: 05 February 2019 - 01:57 PM

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User is online   Zaxx 

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#89

A Duke that's not from the US would be weird for sure but here's the thing about BJ in Wolf TNO: his past from the previous games is his backstory for the new games and that's why it fits so well. You find out about him basically by the game confirming what it left behind from the previous games and what it kept intact and that's just great. When MachineGames did give him a true backstory in TNC it felt kinda forced: in TNO it seems like he hates the nazis simply because of his war experience with a little bit of his Polish heritage spicing the whole thing up. TNC comes up with his father being a child abuser racist fuck and that stuff felt really forced and cliché to me.

Duke is a bit like old school Blazko in the sense that while he has a personality his character doesn't have much substance to it. That's something a new game would just have to add but I don't think it should go for the "let's analyze the crap out of every single building block of this character" approach. Keep it simple, keep his past somewhat shady and just build him up as the story goes along: nobody cares about how Duke started out but everyone wants to know who he is now. I think that there is a lot to add to the character of Duke as long as that stuff stays true to what we already know about him.

Edit: And just to elaborate on that: for example I don't want to know how Duke became a badass alien ass kicker but I do want to know what motivates him to go after all the fuckers as a one man army.

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 05 February 2019 - 02:11 PM

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User is offline   thricecursed 

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#90

View PostZaxx, on 05 February 2019 - 02:01 PM, said:

A Duke that's not from the US would be weird for sure but here's the thing about BJ in Wolf TNO: his past from the previous games is his backstory for the new games and that's why it fits so well. You find out about him basically by the game confirming what it left behind from the previous games and what it kept intact and that's just great. When MachineGames did give him a true backstory in TNC it felt kinda forced: in TNO it seems like he hates the nazis simply because of his war experience with a little bit of his Polish heritage spicing the whole thing up. TNC comes up with his father being a child abuser racist fuck and that stuff felt really forced and cliché to me.

Duke is a bit like old school Blazko in the sense that while he has a personality his character doesn't have much substance to it. That's something a new game would just have to add but I don't think it should go for the "let's analyze the crap out of every single building block of this character" approach. Keep it simple, keep his past somewhat shady and just build him up as the story goes along: nobody cares about how Duke started out but everyone wants to know who he is now. I think that there is a lot to add to the character of Duke as long as that stuff stays true to what we already know about him.

Edit: And just to elaborate on that: for example I don't want to know how Duke became a badass alien ass kicker but I do want to know what motivates him to go after all the fuckers as a one man army.


Old school BJ didn't really have anything besides a face that would grimace at you at times. Duke has way more built on top of that. You just said it yourself - no one cares how he started out, they want to know who he is now. And who he is now would need to be redefined until he's no longer the Duke we know. You can't have him tipping strippers, you can't have pig cops, all that shit would seem odd and jarring (not to mention politically iffy) if any of the characters are given a back story IMO. You could do it like Deadpool, but again, it sets certain constraints on the story that are hard to pull off when there are already so many expectations people have for a Duke game. Kinda serious, but not? It's the exact same criticism I had for Shelly's character.

Edit: Just saw your edit. I guess that could make sense if you do it like Blood, but Blood already had way more of a more serious tone, so nope.

This post has been edited by thricecursed: 05 February 2019 - 02:17 PM

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