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Duke Being Put To Pasture?

User is offline   Sledgehammer 

  • 827

#331

View Postnecroslut, on 05 April 2019 - 02:20 PM, said:

I think its safe to assume 3D Realms did not desire the real world to be invaded by hostile aliens. :P

The only thing 3D Realms wanted is to make a good video game enjoyed by everyone.

This post has been edited by Sledgehammer: 05 April 2019 - 02:23 PM

7

User is offline   thricecursed 

  • 92

#332

"Reviewers praised the interactivity of the environments, gameplay, level design, and unique risqué humor, a mix of pop-culture satire and lampooning of over-the-top Hollywood action heroes."

https://en.wikipedia...i/Duke_Nukem_3D

Why are we acting like Duke is a serious character still? Are there people here who believe that, and that's why they're responding to johnny's criticisms are if they are legitimate and don't betray a fundamental misunderstanding of the game's tone? Clue me in please as I'm still fairly new to this forum. It seems like some people miss the satire aspect of the game and take it more as a serious form of art?

Who would be influenced in their behavior towards sex workers from DN3D of all things? BTW, I actually agree with the GTA example. I found it quite egregious personally, but who gives a shit what I think, lol. I'm not gonna dictate to others what they can or can't play.

Edit: I gotta add that, all this shit that people find objectionable in games and in movies, TV shows, it's all out there anyway. Whether we talk about it or not. But good art merely holds a mirror to society. Hiding from it doesn't make it go away or heal our sick world. School shootings don't happen because some kids played Doom.
Here's a good article about violence and video games: https://theconversat...-violence-91607

This post has been edited by thricecursed: 05 April 2019 - 02:34 PM

0

User is offline   MusicallyInspired 

  • 3,390

#333

Comparing 3D Realms' Duke Nukem 3D from 1996 to Machine Games' Wolfenstein games from 2014+ is more than ridiculous. Half-Life and Unreal hadn't even come out yet. There was no narrative or characterization in shooters. In fact, Duke3D was ahead of the game in that regard by even including the protagonist's voice.

View Postnecroslut, on 05 April 2019 - 02:02 PM, said:

...the same argument used to claim Half-Life supported killing security guards.


Don't be silly, blue lives don't matter. :P

Roland SC-55 Music Packs
Latest release: Heretic SC-55 Music Pack (12/12/18)
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1

User is offline   johnnythewolf 

  • -100

#334

View Postnecroslut, on 05 April 2019 - 02:02 PM, said:

No, not even close. To even bring up that as an argument proves you just don't get it, and that it is unlikely you will. A hypothetical "MachineGames Duke", even if it would be enjoyable on its own, would be a complete failure as a Duke sequel. Objectively.


What is up with the sudden condescension? <_<

Also, the MachineGames' Wolfenstein titles have been quite successful and it seems plenty of people actually like its portrayal of BJ Blazkowicz. That is objectively not a failure.

View Postnecroslut, on 05 April 2019 - 02:02 PM, said:

...the same argument used to claim Half-Life supported killing security guards.


Terrible analogy. Half-Life's security guards are not hypersexualised women, they actually have a personality and they can defend themselves.

View Postnecroslut, on 05 April 2019 - 02:02 PM, said:

It is a shooter – that's the extent of how you can interact with almost anything in the game. You shoot or you don't.


Congratulations! You have just realised that the first-person shooter genre has the tendency to hamper its own potential as an interactive medium by limiting itself to "you shoot or you don't". ;)

Heck, Duke Nukem 3D owed part of its success and appeal to its interactivity, which helped set it apart from Doom; why would a future Duke Nukem game shy away from that?

View Postnecroslut, on 05 April 2019 - 02:02 PM, said:

You do get punished, albeit not very severely, for killing the women, even if by accident. If they wanted to reward it they would spawn ammo or health or reveal a secret area or level, and they don't.


Again, since the game is all about shooting monsters and having fun doing so, spawning extra monsters is anything but a punishment.

View Postnecroslut, on 05 April 2019 - 02:02 PM, said:

I could give you "objectifying", but not misogynistic.


But the game does treat women like literal objects.

View Postnecroslut, on 05 April 2019 - 02:02 PM, said:

But you're not even really given the option to treat them as sex objects.


It is actually the opposite: you are not given the option not to treat them as sex objects. They serve literally no other gameplay function.

View Postnecroslut, on 05 April 2019 - 02:02 PM, said:

It's not a statement on women, their worth or what role they should have in society; because it is not a statement, political or otherwise.


When that is the only way women are represented in Duke's world, I would say it is. It also says a lot about how the developers viewed their audience.

View Postnecroslut, on 05 April 2019 - 02:02 PM, said:

I think the use of the term "sex worker" is problematic


It is not. Unlike "prostitute" or far more vulgar synonyms, "sex worker" does not carry any negative connotation and seems to be used by sex workers themselves to refer to themselves.

View Postnecroslut, on 05 April 2019 - 02:02 PM, said:

It could also be claimed that GTA brought attention to that kind of violence.


No, the people criticising the way it handles the topic (i.e. very exploitative) are. Rockstar does not give a fuck; otherwise, they would have had a sex worker the protagonist of a Grand Theft Auto game by now.

This post has been edited by johnnythewolf: 05 April 2019 - 06:40 PM

-1

User is offline   MusicallyInspired 

  • 3,390

#335

How do you feel about the women who enjoy and choose to objectify themselves to men?

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Buy the P&C Adventure/RPG game Mage's Initiation on Steam, GOG, and Humble
0

User is offline   johnnythewolf 

  • -100

#336

View PostTrooper Dan, on 05 April 2019 - 02:11 PM, said:

He's fighting the alien invasion and killing the aliens who are doing bad things to women and people in general! Anyway, it's a simple shooting game, what do you expect him to do, stop and give a speech about equal rights?


Why not? That would have been very creative. :lol:

The "simple shooting game" is not an excuse for the world being misogynistic, as you put it; 3d Realms could have easily populated the levels with civilian NPCs of all genders or even had no NPCs in the first place; skip the women abduction subplot and have the Cycloids turn all humans, not just the men, into pigs!

View PostTrooper Dan, on 05 April 2019 - 02:11 PM, said:

Why should the game punish you?


To indicate that what you have done is wrong and make you feel bad about it?

View PostTrooper Dan, on 05 April 2019 - 02:11 PM, said:

This is a very strange complaint, because it's obvious that DN3D has a dark tone and in that game there is nothing Duke can do to help them.


You need to stop talking about 3d Realms' creative decisions as if they had no choice but to go with them.

And even then, they could have done the Aliens reference without making it explicitly gendered by having Duke come across all types of captive civilians.

View PostTrooper Dan, on 05 April 2019 - 02:11 PM, said:

I was only pointing out that he never gets an opportunity to interact with a woman who is not a sex worker or hopeless captive, so we don't get to see how he acts around women in normal situations.


Therefore, you should not have brought it up as some sort of argument. What matters is how Duke Nukem treats women in the diegesis.

View PostTrooper Dan, on 05 April 2019 - 02:11 PM, said:

It's a fantasy world. You shouldn't assume that it's a reflection of how the developers want the world to be


No, but it might be a reflection of what the developers think their audience want the world to be.

View PostTrooper Dan, on 05 April 2019 - 02:11 PM, said:

No, I'm saying that he is open to interpretation as to his attitudes towards women in DN3D. He might be an OK guy, he might be a douche. Then DNF answers that question and makes him out to be a douche.


Even in Duke Nukem II, Duke Nukem was established to be a douche who writes books about how he thinks he is so great and even takes the time to entertain the idea of using the Rigelatins' space ship to take over the world, including destroying Detroit in the process.

View PostTrooper Dan, on 05 April 2019 - 02:11 PM, said:

Suppose the game starred a woman, and the only human males were male strippers/prostitutes and impregnated male captives. And let's say she acts towards them just as Duke does. Would it be fair for me to conclude that she hates men?


Misogyny is not just about hating women. You really need to stop working with such an absurdly reductive definition.

Furthermore, men are not objectified in society quite like women; men also have not been heavily discriminated against throughout history by very patriarchal institutions. In fact, the hypothetical game you have described where the roles have been inverted would play out as a rather bold satire of gender roles in fiction and would most likely make a lot of men out there feel quite uncomfortable, to say the least. It is also highly likely that your female Duke Nukem would be perceived very differently, as women are just not expected to behave this promiscuously; when they do, they tend to get shamed and called all sorts of nasty things. And yes, they also do get accused of actually hating men.

As such, your analogy simply does not work.

This post has been edited by johnnythewolf: 05 April 2019 - 07:37 PM

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User is offline   necroslut 

  • 259

#337

View Postthricecursed, on 05 April 2019 - 02:27 PM, said:

Why are we acting like Duke is a serious character still? Are there people here who believe that, and that's why they're responding to johnny's criticisms are if they are legitimate and don't betray a fundamental misunderstanding of the game's tone? Clue me in please as I'm still fairly new to this forum. It seems like some people miss the satire aspect of the game and take it more as a serious form of art?

Because it's sorta both? There's an element of, call it parody, of a 80's/90's action hero template; but it is simultaneously a relatively straight-faced instance of one. It's more Commando than The Last Action Hero.

View PostMusicallyInspired, on 05 April 2019 - 05:08 PM, said:

Comparing 3D Realms' Duke Nukem 3D from 1996 to Machine Games' Wolfenstein games from 2014+ is more than ridiculous. Half-Life and Unreal hadn't even come out yet. There was no narrative or characterization in shooters. In fact, Duke3D was ahead of the game in that regard by even including the protagonist's voice.

Not just voice; but also environmental storytelling through level design and scripted scenes. Sure, it was all rather rudimentary, but it was 1996. It was ridiculously ahead of the curve, and its a shame it's often not recognized for it.

View Postjohnnythewolf, on 05 April 2019 - 06:37 PM, said:

What is up with the sudden condescension? <_<

Also, the MachineGames' Wolfenstein titles have been quite successful and it seems plenty of people actually like its portrayal of BJ Blazkowicz. That is objectively not a failure.

I said it "would be a complete failure as a Duke sequel"; as in failing to encompass or build on the strenghts and qualities of its predecessor. Duke Nukem and Wolfenstein are different games, with different focus, different scope, different tone and so on – a followup to one has to accomplish different things than a sequel to the other. The characters are different and need to be different in order to fill the needs the respective games have for them. Game "characters", because they're objects, should be considered a means to an end rather than the end goal itself; at least in action games.

Quote

Terrible analogy. Half-Life's security guards are not hypersexualised women, they actually have a personality and they can defend themselves.

It's a newer game, and they can't sufficiently defend themselves. And since they drop ammo, you sort of actually do get rewarded for killing them. But the real reason I brought it up is because it was an actual complaint against the game at the time, that it encouraged killing security guards.

Quote

Congratulations! You have just realised that the first-person shooter genre has the tendency to hamper its own potential as an interactive medium by limiting itself to "you shoot or you don't". ;)
Heck, Duke Nukem 3D owed part of its success and appeal to its interactivity, which helped set it apart from Doom; why would a future Duke Nukem game shy away from that?

...and like I mentioned before; Duke Forever, had it come out on time, would have expanded on it. It would have had a wider range of NPC:s, with a wider range of expression, and a wider range of interection. Whether it would have satisfied either of us is obviously up in the air, but that hints at the intent.
The NPC implementation in Duke 3D is obviously very rudimentary, and there are clear technical and otherwise development related causes for that. That does not make it misogynist. That Pauline is more or less just a static sprite in Donkey Kong does not make it misogynist.

Quote

Again, since the game is all about shooting monsters and having fun doing so, spawning extra monsters is anything but a punishment.
[...]
But the game does treat women like literal objects.
[...]
It is actually the opposite: you are not given the option not to treat them as sex objects. They serve literally no other gameplay function.

But that is the way the game punishes players, and not the way it rewards them. Obviously I see how it can be taken as a reward, but it is consistent with the game's "feedback language" and thus it should be obvious it is not meant as a reward. Intent matters.

It treats everything and everyone as objects, as do all video games to varying extent. Game programs consist of objects, they can't do anything else. Sure, they're less dynamic than, say, the enemies, but even if they moved around and spoke they would still be objects.

It could be argued that, because they serve no real gameplay function, they are less of an object. If you were rewarded for saving them they would be the equivalent of a pickup or currency. Still, I disagree on this one; I'd say you are not given the option to treat them like much at all.

Quote

When that is the only way women are represented in Duke's world, I would say it is. It also says a lot about how the developers viewed their audience.

And I'd say you are unfounded in doing so. You disregard anything contradicting your "analysis" without much of an argument, cherrypicking the points supporting it and very arbitrarily drawing a picture out of those.

Quote

It is not. Unlike "prostitute" or far more vulgar synonyms, "sex worker" does not carry any negative connotation and seems to be used by sex workers themselves to refer to themselves.

"It is not." Thanks for "educating" me. :rolleyes:

Quote

No, the people criticising the way it handles the topic (i.e. very exploitative) are. Rockstar does not give a fuck; otherwise, they would have had a sex worker the protagonist of a Grand Theft Auto game by now.

It was not meant as a defense of GTA; that wasn't the point. The point is that your conclusion is not obvious or the only one, and there is much room for discussion and analysis, but you don't seem interested in it as you already "know" what to take away.
GTA has an obvious element of satire – much more so than Duke – and while I wouldn't dare claim with any certainty that their inclusion of or "treatment" of prostitutes in the games (which differ between the games) were ever meant to highlight any real world issues, but that possibility couldn't be dismissed that easily either.

Blue barrels are heavier than regular barrels
3

User is online   Trooper Dan 

  • Duke Plus Developer
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#338

View Postjohnnythewolf, on 05 April 2019 - 07:29 PM, said:

Why not? That would have been very creative. :lol:

The "simple shooting game" is not an excuse for the world being misogynistic, as you put it; 3d Realms could have easily populated the levels with civilian NPCs of all genders or even had no NPCs in the first place; skip the women abduction subplot and have the Cycloids turn all humans, not just the men, into pigs!


You keep trying to expand the subject. I have been very clear from the beginning of this debate that I'm only trying to argue that the character Duke Nukem is not a misogynist in DN3D, unless the player plays him that way. If you go back and read all my posts, you will see that I never denied that the world he occupies contains lots of misogyny. So yeah 3D Realms could have made a different game, no one is denying that.

View Postjohnnythewolf, on 05 April 2019 - 07:29 PM, said:

To indicate that what you have done is wrong and make you feel bad about it?


This has been covered already. It's a simple game. The game code only detects whether a woman has died, it's not even checking to see who killed her. She could have been killed by a fat commander rocket or any number of things. So Duke saying "Damn..." and sounding unhappy about it is a good way to cover the situation generically. You are putting an unreasonable burden on a game from 1996.

View Postjohnnythewolf, on 05 April 2019 - 07:29 PM, said:

You need to stop talking about 3d Realms' creative decisions as if they had no choice but to go with them.


Again, this goes back to me simply trying to make the point that Duke himself does not act in a misogynistic way, versus you expanding the debate into the overall world design.

View Postjohnnythewolf, on 05 April 2019 - 07:29 PM, said:

Misogyny is not just about hating women. You really need to stop working with such an absurdly reductive definition.


Then take up your complaint with dictionaries and google, not me. Googling the word returns "dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women" which is exactly how I have been using it. So if you think that's absurd, then you can go away and speak your own language with other like-minded people.

View Postjohnnythewolf, on 05 April 2019 - 07:29 PM, said:

Furthermore, men are not objectified in society quite like women; men also have not been heavily discriminated against throughout history by very patriarchal institutions blah blah blah

As such, your analogy simply does not work.


Oh boy, here we go, this is the same kind of garbage that I was subjected to growing up in a predominantly black city where I was beaten and literally spat upon by racist blacks, only to be told that it wasn't racism because they were historically subjugated and people of my color were not. Of course I understand that there are huge historical and contemporary differences between how men and women are treated, but the analogy is still good enough as it stands.
5

User is offline   Zaxx 

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#339

View Postjohnnythewolf, on 05 April 2019 - 06:37 PM, said:

It is actually the opposite: you are not given the option not to treat them as sex objects. They serve literally no other gameplay function.

Well, you can kill them too. :D

Btw. if Duke Nukem is a misogynistic franchise then how come men are literally being turned to pigs in that world? Maybe you're just misunderstanding the aim of how Duke's world is presented? Maybe you shouldn't take it seriously? Maybe it works more like a parody of misogyny instead of representing and supporting the actual thing? What if art can actually show you misogyny, sexual objectification and all of your other favorite buzzwords if that sends a message?

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 06 April 2019 - 12:03 AM

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User is offline   WorkWandaWork 

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#340

View PostZaxx, on 06 April 2019 - 12:00 AM, said:

Maybe you're just...

...discussing in bad faith. Don't over-complicate johnny crying wolf.

Posted Image

This post has been edited by JaccuseJuneJaccuse: 06 April 2019 - 01:14 AM

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User is offline   thricecursed 

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#341

View Postnecroslut, on 05 April 2019 - 07:40 PM, said:

Because it's sorta both? There's an element of, call it parody, of a 80's/90's action hero template; but it is simultaneously a relatively straight-faced instance of one. It's more Commando than The Last Action Hero.


Duke himself might be relatively straight faced, but the world sure isn't. You can't really take either of them seriously. I mean, compared to something like the GTA games which were always far more rooted in reality, I think the misogyny argument is just fundamentally flawed because the whole package is so clearly poking fun of the cultural milieu of the 80s and 90s. If you simply don't find it funny or effective, that's one thing, and maybe don't go to places where people do find it funny and tell them all how they're wrong.

I love that you brought up Commando as it's by far the silliest 80s action film, lol.


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User is offline   Nancsi 

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#342

>>Outhouse
0

User is offline   thricecursed 

  • 92

#343

I'm gonna bring this here because I just spotted this comment in another thread and don't wanna derail it with his nonsense...

View Postjohnnythewolf, on 04 April 2019 - 01:43 PM, said:

Fair enough.

I compared that guy to a mosque shooter because his shitty rhetoric was shared by both the Québec Mosque shooter and the Christchurch Mosque shooter as well as quite a few more recent domestic terrorists; as such, I think it is only fair to remind him that his reactionary beliefs can lead him on a very dark path.


I thought you were trolling, but you really are delusional, aren't you? I said I enjoy the freedom of shooting games that don't hold my hand and tell me how to feel, through characters I can't relate to. Yes, it's easier to insert myself into the role of a Duke, Caleb or Doomguy. You know what they all have in common? They fight against the forces of evil. It's not just killing without context. And even if it was, literally nothing about that indicates the desire to kill real human beings in the real world.

I have no idea what other "rhetoric" you're referring to, lol. Sounds like you know a lot about mosque shooters, almost like an obsession. Maybe we should keep an eye on you.
1

User is offline   Ninety-Six 

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#344

View Postthricecursed, on 06 April 2019 - 01:46 AM, said:

I have no idea what other "rhetoric" you're referring to, lol.


Considering the two posts he said that mosque shit in response to were these:

View Postthricecursed, on 26 March 2019 - 02:37 AM, said:

Lol, you're literally some SJW that got lost in here, aren't you?


View PostLazy Dog, on 17 March 2019 - 11:29 AM, said:

can you honestly say that if a new Duke Nukem game came out tomorrow sjw or feminists or any other idiots that can't distinguish a videogame from reality wouldn't start complaining? do we live on the same planet?


I'm pretty sure the "rhetoric" in question is "not liking SJW bullshit." Or people who call "SJW Bullshit" SJW bullshit.


So basically he equates anyone who strongly dislikes left-winged agenda-pushing to people who commit mass-murders.

This post has been edited by Ninety-Six: 06 April 2019 - 01:58 AM

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User is offline   thricecursed 

  • 92

#345

View PostNinety-Six, on 06 April 2019 - 01:55 AM, said:

Considering the two posts he said that mosque shit in response to were these:





I'm pretty sure the "rhetoric" in question is "not liking SJW bullshit." Or people who call "SJW Bullshit" SJW bullshit.


So basically he equates anyone who strongly dislikes left-winged agenda-pushing to people who commit mass-murders.


Not sure what can be said to a person who is ideologically possessed like that. I'm much more left wing than right wing, generally speaking, I just don't use those terms because they basically limit who you're able to converse with. This guy started with the name calling and straw manning people's arguments, so I had no qualms with labeling him a SJW. He acts just like them and by the looks of it, would ban/censor media that he personally disapproves of.
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User is offline   Zaxx 

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#346

View Postthricecursed, on 06 April 2019 - 01:08 AM, said:

GTA

I think that's a really good example to something similar to Duke if we consider GTA 4 and 5 and not the more cartoonish previous games. The thing is that even when GTA is trying to be realistic and even when it's dealing with real world issues you just can't take it seriously because there's always that element of Rockstar winking at you. That's the charm of it, really and that's how Duke 3D rode that line wonderfully too.

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 06 April 2019 - 02:43 AM

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User is offline   thricecursed 

  • 92

#347

View PostZaxx, on 06 April 2019 - 02:42 AM, said:

I think that's a really good example to something similar to Duke if we consider GTA 4 and 5 and not the more cartoonish previous games. The thing is that even when GTA is trying to be realistic and even when it's dealing with real world issues you just can't take it seriously because there's always that element of Rockstar winking at you. That's the charm of it, really and that's how Duke 3D rode that line wonderfully too.


I think Duke is a lot like the cartoonish first 2 games. It's exactly the same tone IMO. The other games just parody various movies and cultural periods. Like SA being influenced by Boyz n the Hood and Menace 2 Society. GTA 5 had rather overt social commentary in it, but I think the whole series changed into a different beast after GTA 1-2 and doesn't have much to do with Duke 3D type games anymore. GTA 4 has almost a totally serious narrative, so I don't see the comparison there either...
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User is offline   ck3D 

  • 349

#348

You know what's funny and this discussion actually made me aware of? Subconsciously, I always regarded how the plot of Duke 3D consisted in saving the world for nothing but the 'babes' (thereby completely dropping men out of the equation; maybe even equating them as part of the discarded, helpless evil) as some kind of watermark of a true love letter from a group of men, to women (similarly to a lot of art). As far as that game is concerned it is interpretable that the macho traits of the character are mere comedic disguise only enhancing the satiric tone of the game. Everything portrayed in Duke 3D is corrupt, even the main protagonist; that the 'babes' are the only innocent victims in the whole game all the while being the sole reason why Duke is going through all this hell should say something. I found the Pauline / Donkey Kong comparison above rather spot on.

The "damn..." Duke talk might sound too neutral, but it's there when it also could not have been, especially considering how rudimentary Duke 3D is, and it's the only instance where Duke expresses remorse in the entire game. Its presence paired up with the plot is sufficiently credible to me. Also what about the reoccurring, determined "nobody steals our chicks... and lives!"? Before one argues about the apparent objectifying; would anyone really want a game with lines such as "nobody steals persons... and lives under conditions not determined by the appropriate court ruling!"?

Also yes women have indeed been suffering from patriarchy forever and it's a very positive and constructive thing that most parts of the world have become sophisticated enough to start actively addressing certain issues that should have been fundamental in the first place, but in reality such emphasis on the supposed dichotomy of men and women itself sounds sexist by definition. We are all human beings with powerful natural urges and survival instincts leading us to the goals we want to achieve; in the process of such an existence, women can definitely have their own ways to critically overwhelm men in many, less popularly considered aspects. Rejecting that fact and laughing it off as one's personal weakness would be doing the same thing certain people used to - and occasionally still - do whenever the idea of women's rights is getting brought up. Dividing the people always sucks. Standing for justice is the most positive thing, but let's try and stay on its track in the process.

This post has been edited by ck3D: 06 April 2019 - 05:25 AM

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User is offline   johnnythewolf 

  • -100

#349

View Postnecroslut, on 05 April 2019 - 07:40 PM, said:

I said it "would be a complete failure as a Duke sequel"; as in failing to encompass or build on the strengths and qualities of its predecessor.


I do not believe so. Giving Duke Nukem a fleshed-out personality does not equate making levels less interactive and open-ended; whoever holds the rights to the franchise could take cues not only from MachineGames' Wolfenstein but also Prey 2018 and Dishonored from Arkane Studios, which just so happens to be collaborating with MachineGames on Wolfenstein: Youngblood! ;)

View Postnecroslut, on 05 April 2019 - 07:40 PM, said:

Duke Nukem and Wolfenstein are different games, with different focus, different scope, different tone and so on


Except Wolfenstein has been many different things throughout the years: what started as a serious, fairly realistic (for its time) stealth-adventure game became a very goofy, colourful and cartoony first-person shooter that completely ditches the stealth aspect, then went back to being fairly serious and realistic - albeit still a first-person shooter - and reintroduced the stealth mechanics, only to get reimagined by MachineGames as a futuristic game that manages to be both dark and gritty, yet still over the top.

There is just no reason that the Duke Nukem series could not undergo similar, successful transformations. Especially when it did not even start as a first-person shooter to begin with!

View Postnecroslut, on 05 April 2019 - 07:40 PM, said:

It's a newer game, and they can't sufficiently defend themselves. And since they drop ammo, you sort of actually do get rewarded for killing them.


They cannot sufficiently defend themselves because their AI was rather poor, but in the diegesis, we are expected to assume that quite a few of them can still take care of themselves; if they are not killed because of the player's actions (or in some cases, inaction), they either get separated from you or choose to stay behind to help other survivours. Not just that, but Gearbox went as far as to make a security guard into a playable protagonist in one of the expansion packs! Also, Valve made it impossible for the player to shoot friendly AI companions in Half-Life 2. :)

Your analogy would have worked better if instead of mindless sex workers, Duke Nukem ran into surviving LAPD members.

View Postnecroslut, on 05 April 2019 - 07:40 PM, said:

The NPC implementation in Duke 3D is obviously very rudimentary, and there are clear technical and otherwise development related causes for that. That does not make it misogynistic.


Yes, it does. Again, nobody was forcing 3d Realms to populate the levels with sex workers and helpless women; they had to make the decision to put them there. They could have realised the unfortunate implications of doing so and decided against it until they could have figured out a better way to implement NPCs.

View Postnecroslut, on 05 April 2019 - 07:40 PM, said:

That Pauline is more or less just a static sprite in Donkey Kong does not make it misogynistic.


Posted Image

What if I told you that the 'damsel in distress' trope is actually pretty misogynistic?

View Postnecroslut, on 05 April 2019 - 07:40 PM, said:

But that is the way the game punishes players, and not the way it rewards them. Obviously I see how it can be taken as a reward, but it is consistent with the game's "feedback language" and thus it should be obvious it is not meant as a reward. Intent matters.


No, intent does not matter. If the punishment does not feel like one, then it is because the game simply failed at doing what it set to do.

View Postnecroslut, on 05 April 2019 - 07:40 PM, said:

And I'd say you are unfounded in doing so. You disregard anything contradicting your "analysis" without much of an argument, cherrypicking the points supporting it and very arbitrarily drawing a picture out of those.


Well, that is the pot calling the kettle black... <_<

Also, you really need to read about how historically very gendered marketing of video games has been and how the industry short-sightedly chose to mostly target a young male demographic as its core audience, shaping the players' mindset to where it is right now and alienating a lot of potential customers in the process.

Seriously, you watch some of the video game ads from the 90s and you get the impression that they were specifically meant for Beavis and Butthead. :huh:

View Postnecroslut, on 05 April 2019 - 07:40 PM, said:

"It is not." Thanks for "educating" me. :rolleyes:


I did not know you expected me to educate you on the sex industry. I thought you were perfectly capable of researching the subject yourself. :unsure:

View Postnecroslut, on 05 April 2019 - 07:40 PM, said:

GTA has an obvious element of satire – much more so than Duke – and while I wouldn't dare claim with any certainty that their inclusion of or "treatment" of prostitutes in the games (which differ between the games) were ever meant to highlight any real world issues, but that possibility couldn't be dismissed that easily either.


Actually, I think it should, given Rockstar's horrible track record in that regard. Based on the nasty stuff they have put in their games (and no, I am not referring to "Hot Coffee" there) and even in the way they have been treating their own real-life employees, I can tell that the Houser brothers are just not good people and that they do not get to be given the benefit of doubt at this point.

I mean, at this rate, you might as well claim that Donald Trump's "locker room talk" in the infamous Access Hollywood tape was him just trying to highlight the power dynamics in the industry. :rolleyes:

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View PostZaxx, on 06 April 2019 - 12:00 AM, said:

if Duke Nukem is a misogynistic franchise, then how come men are literally being turned to pigs in that world?


Maybe because they are not meant to be valued for their sexual availability and as such it is okay for Duke to gleefully murder them?

Have you considered the possibility that Duke Nukem 3D might also be kind of misandric? ;)

View PostZaxx, on 06 April 2019 - 12:00 AM, said:

Maybe it works more like a parody of misogyny instead of representing and supporting the actual thing?


Maybe you do not understand how parody works?

At no point does the game ever frame Duke Nukem as ridiculous for objectifying women or suggest that his actions may be actually harmful; rather, the misogyny is played entirely straight and, as demonstrated by other people in this thread, players are expected to perceive Duke's actions as "appropriate" within the context of the game. To illustrate the absurdity of your argument, let me take this to an extreme: would you call the Christchurch Mosque massacre a "parody" of domestic terrorism because the shooter cracked some jokes and referenced memes while committing it?

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View PostMusicallyInspired, on 05 April 2019 - 06:50 PM, said:

How do you feel about the women who enjoy and choose to objectify themselves to men?


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View Postthricecursed, on 06 April 2019 - 01:08 AM, said:

Duke himself might be relatively straight faced, but the world sure isn't. You can't really take either of them seriously. I mean, compared to something like the GTA games which were always far more rooted in reality, I think the misogyny argument is just fundamentally flawed because the whole package is so clearly poking fun of the cultural milieu of the 80s and 90s. If you simply don't find it funny or effective, that's one thing, and maybe don't go to places where people do find it funny and tell them all how they're wrong.

I love that you brought up Commando as it's by far the silliest 80s action film, lol.

...which is exactly the reason why I choose Commando. Commando is gleefully over-the-top, it's ridiculous and it knows it, but I don't think it's a parody – I'd rather call it "unapologetically indulgent".

View Postjohnnythewolf, on 06 April 2019 - 05:51 AM, said:

I do not believe so. Giving Duke Nukem a fleshed-out personality does not equate making levels less interactive and open-ended; whoever holds the rights to the franchise could take cues not only from MachineGames' Wolfenstein but also Prey 2018 and Dishonored from Arkane Studios, which just so happens to be collaborating with MachineGames on Wolfenstein: Youngblood! ;)

Which is why I, condescendingly ;) , said "you just don't get it". Narrative and gameplay aren't disconnected pieces where you can just tug and pull at one without affecting the other. What you do with one determines what you can do with the other without the whole thing coming apart.

Quote

They cannot sufficiently defend themselves because their AI was rather poor, but in the diegesis, we are expected to assume that quite a few of them can still take care of themselves; if they are not killed because of the player's actions (or in some cases, inaction), they either get separated from you or choose to stay behind to help other survivours. Not just that, but Gearbox went as far as to make a security guard into a playable protagonist in one of the expansion packs! Also, Valve made it impossible for the player to shoot friendly AI companions in Half-Life 2. :)

Your analogy would have worked better if instead of mindless sex workers, Duke Nukem ran into surviving LAPD members.
[...]
Yes, it does. Again, nobody was forcing 3d Realms to populate the levels with sex workers and helpless women; they had to make the decision to put them there. They could have realised the unfortunate implications of doing so and decided against it until they could have figured out a better way to implement NPCs.

Security guards can't sufficiently defend themselves because they're underequipped. A few, early in the game, might survive without your help (although they'll also be stuck there), but once the stronger enemies start to appear they'll be torn to bits – by design.

Personally, I've always found Half-Life's implementation of NPC's a very interesting and effective one. Exactly because there is generally no reward for helping them (beyond the beginning of the game), they are sort of un-objectified. You don't need to help them for the game not to fail you, you're not generally rewarded for helping them – they are effectively at your mercy, and the only reason to do so is because you choose to. And, personally, I do choose so when replaying Half-Life, going out of my way to – to the extent that it is possible – protect and aid them. And Half-Life 2's citizens never made me care about them like that, largely because the game "cheats" to protect them, in turn "dehumanizing" and objectifying them further. Personal anecdote, but it's an outcome I find interesting.

The rare survivning, unmutaded, police NPC would have been interesting, and something I could see in a later Duke game, but a bit out of scope in 1996. You again disregard the CPU, memory, and budgetary constraints the game was developed under.
And, sure, you can say "they could have just removed NPCs entirely" – and made the game simpler and its world less interesting. We could also just have stopped with Pong – video games aren't necessary.

Quote

What if I told you that the 'damsel in distress' trope is actually pretty misogynistic?
[,,,]
No, intent does not matter. If the punishment does not feel like one, then it is because the game simply failed at doing what it set to do.
[...]
Also, you really need to read about how historically very gendered marketing of video games has been and how the industry short-sightedly chose to mostly target a young male demographic as its core audience, shaping the players' mindset to where it is right now and alienating a lot of potential customers in the process.
[...]
Seriously, you watch some of the video game ads from the 90s and you get the impression that they were specifically meant for Beavis and Butthead. :huh:
[...]
I did not know you expected me to educate you on the sex industry. I thought you were perfectly capable of researching the subject yourself. :unsure:

What makes me think I haven't read, and simply don't agree? There's nothing here I haven't heard a thousand times before, that doesn't make it any more obviously true.

I don't have to watch – I remember the 90's – it was apparent to me back then already.

Quote

Actually, I think it should, given Rockstar's horrible track record in that regard. Based on the nasty stuff they have put in their games (and no, I am not referring to "Hot Coffee" there) and even in the way they have been treating their own real-life employees, I can tell that the Houser brothers are just not good people and that they do not get to be given the benefit of doubt at this point.

I mean, at this rate, you might as well claim that Donald Trump's "locker room talk" in the infamous Access Hollywood tape was him just trying to highlight the power dynamics in the industry. :rolleyes:

As I said, "It wasn't meant as a defense for GTA". I'm not gonna fight that battle; I'm not a fan of Rockstar or GTA; but your conclusions are not the only possibility.

View Postjohnnythewolf, on 06 April 2019 - 06:29 AM, said:

Maybe because they are not meant to be valued for their sexual availability and as such it is okay for Duke to gleefully murder them?

Have you considered the possibility that Duke Nukem 3D might also be kind of misandric? ;)

Don't you see how this is starting to get somewhat ridiculous, then? So it would misogynist, misandrist, misanthropist, etc etc etc... way to dilute the meaning of words. <_<

Quote

Maybe you do not understand how parody works?

At no point does the game ever frame Duke Nukem as ridiculous for objectifying women or suggest that his actions may be actually harmful; rather, the misogyny is played entirely straight and, as demonstrated by other people in this thread, players are expected to perceive Duke's actions as "appropriate" within the context of the game. To illustrate the absurdity of your argument, let me take this to an extreme: would you call the Christchurch Mosque massacre a "parody" of domestic terrorism because the shooter cracked some jokes and referenced memes while committing it?

There's that difference between fantasy and reality, again... Duke 3D is not propaganda, it is not a guidebook; it is knowingly in "poor taste" to quote Broussard.

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View Postjohnnythewolf, on 06 April 2019 - 05:51 AM, said:

Posted Image

What if I told you that the 'damsel in distress' trope is actually pretty misogynistic?


I'd say you're quite the contrarian. ;)

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View Postnecroslut, on 06 April 2019 - 08:33 AM, said:

Which is why I, condescendingly ;) , said "you just don't get it". Narrative and gameplay aren't disconnected pieces where you can just tug and pull at one without affecting the other. What you do with one determines what you can do with the other without the whole thing coming apart.


MachineGames' Wolfenstein games have not done that, so there is no reason to think that a Duke Nukem game done in a similar fashion would.

View Postnecroslut, on 06 April 2019 - 08:33 AM, said:

The rare survivning, unmutated, police NPC would have been interesting, and something I could see in a later Duke game, but a bit out of scope in 1996. You again disregard the CPU, memory, and budgetary constraints the game was developed under.


Not really. A game like Blake Stone: Aliens of Gold had friendly NPCs that you could talk to and even Duke Nukem 64 gave you the ability to teleport captives to safety.

View Postnecroslut, on 06 April 2019 - 08:33 AM, said:

And, sure, you can say "they could have just removed NPCs entirely" – and made the game simpler and its world less interesting.


No. NPCs in Duke Nukem 3D add nothing to the gameplay; in fact, outside of the alien captives in clearly infested areas, they look rather out of place; Los Angeles has been taken over by invaders from out of place, yet you have sex workers just standing there, mindlessly dancing or waiting to be hit on by Duke Nukem. The game would have been just fine without them.

View Postnecroslut, on 06 April 2019 - 08:33 AM, said:

What makes [you] think I haven't read, and simply don't agree? There's nothing here I haven't heard a thousand times before, that doesn't make it any more obviously true.


"And I'd say you are unfounded in doing so. You disregard anything contradicting your "analysis" without much of an argument, cherrypicking the points supporting it and very arbitrarily drawing a picture out of those." :rolleyes:

If you disagree and do not want to be convinced, then fine. Stop arguing with me about the topic at hand.

View Postnecroslut, on 06 April 2019 - 08:33 AM, said:

As I said, "It wasn't meant as a defense for GTA". I'm not gonna fight that battle; I'm not a fan of Rockstar or GTA; but your conclusions are not the only possibility.


They are, unless you can come up with a different one - which in order to do so would require you to make a defense for GTA and Rockstar. ;)

View Postnecroslut, on 06 April 2019 - 08:33 AM, said:

Don't you see how this is starting to get somewhat ridiculous, then? So it would misogynist, misandrist, misanthropist, etc etc etc...


Yes, using words to describe things is ridiculous. :rolleyes:

View Postnecroslut, on 06 April 2019 - 08:33 AM, said:

Duke 3D is not propaganda, it is not a guidebook; it is knowingly in "poor taste" to quote Broussard.


I never said it was propaganda nor a guidebook. However, something done in "poor taste" knowingly is still poor taste and again there is nothing parodic about erotic dancers, sex workers and alien captives; they are not subverting expectations, they are not making a comment on anything, they are just... there.
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View PostTrooper Dan, on 05 April 2019 - 08:35 PM, said:

You keep trying to expand the subject.


No. I am explaining how Duke Nukem comes across as misogynistic and how 3d Realms could have avoided so. It is important to avoid treating the issue as if it happened inside a vacuum.

View PostTrooper Dan, on 05 April 2019 - 08:35 PM, said:

You are putting an unreasonable burden on a game from 1996.


3d Realms is the one who has put such burden in the first place by associating Duke Nukem with erotic dancers, sex workers and damsels in distress. I have not played the original Duke Nukem games, so correct me if I am wrong here, but I do not believe such association existed prior to Duke Nukem 3D. Heck, it was apparently not even present in LameDuke, as the game was not even going to be about an alien abduction of women. Therefore, it is perfectly reasonable to criticise 3d Realms for choosing to rework their game in order to appeal to horny young men.

View PostTrooper Dan, on 05 April 2019 - 08:35 PM, said:

Then take up your complaint with dictionaries and google, not me. Googling the word returns "dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women" which is exactly how I have been using it.


Dictionaries only provide heavily-condensed definitions of the words they describe. You cannot expect to get a comprehensive understanding of a reality with only that. If you are going to seriously argue with me about the misogynistic nature of Duke Nukem as a character, then the least you can do is to learn more about the subject.

View PostTrooper Dan, on 05 April 2019 - 08:35 PM, said:

Oh boy, here we go, this is the same kind of garbage that I was subjected to growing up in a predominantly black city where blah blah blah


Nope. Not going there. :rolleyes:

This post has been edited by johnnythewolf: 06 April 2019 - 10:38 AM

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Here you have your modern Dukes that fit the current times:

https://www.sadandus...CDZjWb0bv0INBpk

A few free casual games by me: http://gamejolt.com/...uegerstef/2615/

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View Postfuegerstef, on 06 April 2019 - 10:49 AM, said:

Here you have your modern Dukes that fit the current times:

https://www.sadandus...CDZjWb0bv0INBpk


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View Postfuegerstef, on 06 April 2019 - 10:49 AM, said:

Here you have your modern Dukes that fit the current times:

https://www.sadandus...CDZjWb0bv0INBpk


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I'm so naive. All these years I thought I was simply enjoying a popular FPS game. Now I find out that it actually has so much social relevance and psychological messages to fill pages of threads. I'll never be able to enjoy it in the same way any more. :lol: I'll also never identify with people who can be so passionate about a video game or character to discuss/argue with such detail. "To each his own" as the saying goes.

This post has been edited by Mark: 06 April 2019 - 11:21 AM

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