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Is Redneck Rampage actually a good game?

User is offline   axl 

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#31

View Postthricecursed, on 08 January 2019 - 10:04 AM, said:

I think Q2 had a bigger impact on release because GLQuake hadn't been out long enough and most were used to playing Quake in DOS or at least were used to it looking the way it did in DOS. When I played it, GLQuake had been out for a year, so that was my first exposure to Q1 and it felt like a better looking game, despite the choppy animations. I was like 8 years old back then, so even a child wasn't fooled, lol.


I guess it's a very personal matter based on own experiences. I also remember seeing Quake 1 for the first time after Duke 3D and thinking : what the hell ? This is way uglier :lol: I was especially shocked by the blocky weapon models. As a kid I was definitely in the Duke camp B)

This post has been edited by axl: 08 January 2019 - 10:26 AM

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User is offline   ReaperAA 

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#32

View Postleilei, on 07 January 2019 - 05:46 PM, said:

Quake2's best looking port is the short-lived DirectQ2...from a veteran port author in the Q1 scene.


Do u happen to know where I can get DirectQ2 (or can u provide it if u have it). I tried searching for a download but couldn't find one.

View PostHigh Treason, on 08 January 2019 - 03:51 AM, said:

Quake 2, on the other hand... that game has no redeeming qualities, it's as though they took everything which made the first one awful and made it even worse to the point of being unbearable. I played the game once, many years ago, when it was still fairly new. It went back in the box, I still have that box, it has never been opened since. Even then we're assuming that it would run, which it probably wouldn't. What you tend to forget with all your flashy ports, is that those ports fix a lot of problems you don't remember any more, largely that ID couldn't code worth shit so their games didn't run right, if they ran at all, or ran slowly due to requiring far more power than their contemporaries for no good reason.


Oh yes the people who designed the groundbreaking titles like Doom and Quake couldn't code worth shit. This is what is call shit-flinging.


While Quake 2 was not as great is Quake 1 was, saying that it had no redeeming qualities is wayyy too harsh. The gameplay was solid, if repetitive. It had coloured-dynamic lighting which made it more colourful than Quake 1. It also introduced the popular strafe-jumping mechanic (even if it was a bug).

This post has been edited by ReaperAA: 08 January 2019 - 10:49 AM

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User is offline   thricecursed 

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#33

View Postaxl, on 08 January 2019 - 10:25 AM, said:

I guess it's a very personal matter based on own experiences. I also remember seeing Quake 1 for the first time after Duke 3D and thinking : what the hell ? This is way uglier :lol: I was especially shocked by the blocky weapon models. As a kid I was definitely in the Duke camp B)


Yeah, it was blocky, but it had attitude IMO. The monster designs were more grotesque than anything I'd encountered and it just had this foreboding "you've come to the wrong neighborhood/dimension" vibe. The thing that impressed me about Q2 was the sound design, particularly those distant shelling noises.

As a kid, I liked Blood above anything else, to the point where my friends thought I was a little crazy. It was the first game I ever installed and played by myself.
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User is offline   axl 

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#34

View Postthricecursed, on 08 January 2019 - 11:06 AM, said:

Yeah, it was blocky, but it had attitude IMO. The monster designs were more grotesque than anything I'd encountered and it just had this foreboding "you've come to the wrong neighborhood/dimension" vibe. The thing that impressed me about Q2 was the sound design, particularly those distant shelling noises.

As a kid, I liked Blood above anything else, to the point where my friends thought I was a little crazy. It was the first game I ever installed and played by myself.


Haha, yeah Blood was and still is awesome. As a kid the build engine games had a huge influence on me. The interactivity, the level variety and the "coolness" of protagonists like Duke and Caleb was like nothing seen before.

Don't get me wrong though, I do love Quake 1 and it kinda grew on me over the years. It has indeed a truely unique atmosphere and it's like THE blueprint of the 90s FPS.
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User is offline   K1n9_Duk3 

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#35

View PostReaperAA, on 08 January 2019 - 10:48 AM, said:

Oh yes the people who designed the groundbreaking titles like Doom and Quake couldn't code worth shit. This is what is call shit-flinging.

Did you watch his video? When the system has 62,400k of free XMS memory and the game reports 0k, that's definitely a problem - especially for a real-mode DOS game.

Hail to the K1n9, baby!
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User is online   HulkNukem 

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#36

I can't even remember the first time I saw a polygonal game.
I think because I was so used to seeing them in arcades (Time Crisis, Die Hard Arcade, etc etc) that when the 64, PS1, and the PC games started coming out I was used to it.
The ugly thing about Quake 2 and its engine is the distorting weapon and character models. It looks like you are looking at them behind an aquarium tank.
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User is online   Mark 

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#37

Its not Q2 doing that distortion. I am currently using Kingpin (used Q2 engine??) models in my latest project and in their original mdx format the shimmering is already present. It may or may not have been introduced during the animation process. IDK what model creation and animating program was used.

This post has been edited by Mark: 08 January 2019 - 02:40 PM

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User is offline   thricecursed 

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#38

View PostMark, on 08 January 2019 - 02:37 PM, said:

Its not Q2 doing that distortion. I am currently using Kingpin (used Q2 engine??) models in my latest project and in their original mdx format the shimmering is already present. It may or may not have been introduced during the animation process. IDK what model creation and animating program was used.



That's because there's no skeletal animation, it's just simple vertex morphing. I actually feel nostalgia for the wobbly effect.
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User is online   Mark 

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#39

Some of those Kingpin models have 500-900 frames of animation. They look pretty smooth and fluid for such low poly models. I doubt those were created one frame at a time. They must have used a format with a skeleton and then converted to the mdx vertex animation and thats where the shimmer might have come from. Was motion capture tech even around back then? If it was but wasn't highly accurate that might explain the shimmering movement of the verts.

This post has been edited by Mark: 08 January 2019 - 03:14 PM

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User is offline   thricecursed 

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#40

View PostMark, on 08 January 2019 - 03:11 PM, said:

Was motion capture tech even around back then?


It was around. Thief TDP was an early, awkward example.
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User is offline   necroslut 

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#41

View Postthricecursed, on 08 January 2019 - 03:19 PM, said:

It was around. Thief TDP was an early, awkward example.

I remember you started hearing a lot about it during that time, but IIRC it had been used earlier in arcade games, movies and other high-end things.

Blue barrels are heavier than regular barrels
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User is offline   thricecursed 

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#42

View Postnecroslut, on 08 January 2019 - 03:32 PM, said:

I remember you started hearing a lot about it during that time, but IIRC it had been used earlier in arcade games, movies and other high-end things.


For sure it had been used in films. Probably other games as well, I just remember they made a big deal out of it in Thief because it wasn't common yet.
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User is offline   leilei 

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#43

all that vertex wobbledyness is all about the low precision each vertex was stored in the model format, especially as MDL/MD2 (and their descendants) have differing scales which also affects this wobbly. Being motion captured doesn't matter. MD3 did attempt to solve this with better precision and a game that animated beyond 10fps clientside, though not without a compromise (you can't have large MD3s, and the memory usage is huge).

though the 10hz rate physics in all q2-based games has probably aged worse than any other aspect. You'll never walk straight, no matter what port with whatever "modern" whizbang whoopdedoo you'll use.

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This post has been edited by leilei: 08 January 2019 - 05:29 PM

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User is online   HulkNukem 

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#44

Also another thing about Kingpin: The AI was surprisingly good at navigating. There were several occasions where there was some tricky platforming yet the AI was able to perform it. They'd still do stupid stuff and get caught on geometry, but for the most part it worked.
Funny that it was so much better than Daikatana's when that game listed sidekicks as one of the main features
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User is online   Mark 

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#45

In a bunch of instances it was done in the model itself. Instead of a static model running in place while shooting and moved by code, the model itself had movement in its anim frames. Riding a motorcycle or car, running down the street and turn a corner. Those and a few others had movement built in the model. But things like the timid thug running away when seeing your weapon was good pathfinding code. Or the thugs listening to the radio in the warehouse area. Its been a long time since I played Kingpin so I'm sure there are plenty of other examples of both.

This post has been edited by Mark: 08 January 2019 - 07:42 PM

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User is offline   leilei 

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#46

Having movement bound to individual model frames have been a long-standing Quake method for animation. All the frame macros in the gamecode would call movement functions with a specific varying distance hand-tuned for each frame. Q3 ditched all that

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User is online   Zaxx 

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#47

View PostHigh Treason, on 08 January 2019 - 03:51 AM, said:

Quake 2, on the other hand... that game has no redeeming qualities,

Watwatwaaat? Well, let's see:

- Q2's unit based level design was pretty tight at the time of release, it's still a feature I like to replay the game for.
- Q2 changed Quake's arsenal significantly by introducing the railgun to the franchise... and so rewarding precise aiming became a thing in FPS.
- Q2 introduced Capture the Flag as an official multiplayer mode as well as the grappling hook as a movement tool.
- Q2 took the bug from Quake 1 that let you do bunny hopping and mechanically improved it to the point where it became the strafe jumping you know today. It was not a bug anymore but an actual, intended game mechanic that makes the game a lot more fun.
- Q2 was the first game in the franchise where all the multiplayer maps were made specifically for multiplayer.
- Q2 popularized the WASD control scheme.
- Last but not least: the soundtrack kicks major ass.

And sure, Quake 2 ran like shit on basically everything when it came out (hell, based on Digital Foundry's video on Q2 you need a Voodoo4 GPU for an framerate you'd call playable these days) but that low fps was still enough at the time (and it ran just fine on the Voodoo2 which came out shortly after the game's release). The art design was boring as fuck too but overall it's still a great game that has a pretty significant place in history when it comes to multiplayer gaming.

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 08 January 2019 - 08:57 PM

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User is offline   ReaperAA 

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#48

View PostReaperAA, on 08 January 2019 - 10:48 AM, said:

Do u happen to know where I can get DirectQ2 (or can u provide it if u have it). I tried searching for a download but couldn't find one.


Nevermind I found it. Leileiloi posted a download on the zdoom forums 3 years ago (2nd comment of thread has it)
https://forum.zdoom....403fb84e33d3c3b

View PostK1n9_Duk3, on 08 January 2019 - 01:34 PM, said:

Did you watch his video? When the system has 62,400k of free XMS memory and the game reports 0k, that's definitely a problem - especially for a real-mode DOS game.


Yes. I know id software games weren't perfect but neither were games of other developers from that era. For example, Half life also had a similar-ish problem, where it gave an error of "requires atleast 16MB RAM" when u had too much RAM. Atleast id software revolutionized the FPS genre, where most devs played catch-up.
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User is offline   BlitZ 

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#49

View PostNancsi, on 07 January 2019 - 06:49 AM, said:

Redneck Rampage was partly designed by Sverre Kvernmo, who also did some infamous, and almost umplayable maps to Doom II Master Levels...

I think Cranium's work is excellent, especially for the time. Black Tower is impressive visually and progressionally. 🤷‍♂️ I never got the complaints about the Master Levels, pretty cool stuff for the time period.

FREE JOHNNY!
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User is offline   VGA 

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#50

View PostJimmy 100MPH, on 08 January 2019 - 11:57 PM, said:

I think Cranium's work is excellent, especially for the time. Black Tower is impressive visually and progressionally. 🤷‍♂️ I never got the complaints about the Master Levels, pretty cool stuff for the time period.

The Master Levels have uneven quality and wildly uneven difficulty. They didn't cooperate at all to crwate a megawad, it's just random maps from several people and they aren't even compiled into a wad that has some kind of progression. So no continuous play is supported.
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User is offline   leilei 

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#51

View PostZaxx, on 08 January 2019 - 08:43 PM, said:

Watwatwaaat? Well, let's see:

HOLY REVISIONISM BATMAN

- All those boring facilities with 'key' hunts and buttons yes.
- The railgun was then an Eraser-inspired fad, "sniper" weapons were already appearing in games by that point, it's more of an inevitability than anything else. It's just a sniper rifle x Hexen sapphire wand
- ROTT says hi!!!! Also 3wave CTF wasn't any more official than the one for Quake. It's Q3 that had CTF out of the box (and not as a 'sanctioned' 3wave mod that time) and they weren't quite 'first' either.
- Bunnyhopping and rocket jumping hasn't really "improved" or even more embraced. Sounds like pro-circlejerk "carmacks vision" BS right there
- Quake2 had NO multiplayer maps on launch. All of the maps included were made for single player. The "q2dm" maps are a point release patch into Spring 1998 post-release. Also claiming that as a 'franchise first' shows how much you know about Quake, which had dm1-6 on day 1 :rolleyes:.
- Quake2 has no WASD defaults. It defaults to arrows.
- Soundtrack was non-moody overdriven noise that didn't fit IMO, I turned it off since release.
- Quake2 ran very well on release. It wasn't a slow PC breaker. It ran better than GLHexen II and even GLQuake for many!!! Not having subdivided sky polygons does help and there's a CPU benefit from dropping the physics to 10hz (as ick as that may be). Even a Cyrix'd budget sucker could enjoy Quake2 nicely. Quake2 was not Unreal.

Posted Image

This post has been edited by leilei: 09 January 2019 - 08:09 PM

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User is offline   Phredreeke 

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#52

> railgun

Lo Wang says hi
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User is online   Zaxx 

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#53

View Postleilei, on 09 January 2019 - 07:46 PM, said:

- All those boring facilities with 'key' hunts and buttons yes.

Don't care about your opinion on the level design, sorry.

Quote

- The railgun was then an Eraser-inspired fad, "sniper" weapons were already appearing in games by that point, it's more of an inevitability than anything else. It's just a sniper rifle x Hexen sapphire wand

Saying that kinda forgets the fact that "sniper" weapons before Q2's railgun were very much glorified autoaim weapons thanks to all the aim assisting going on. I never said it was the first sniper rifle in a video game but it sure as shit was the first you actually had to aim with.

Anyway I was talking about how Q2 introduced the rail to the franchise and significantly improved the multiplayer mechanics by that, not that it was the first rail in a vidyagame.

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- ROTT says hi!!!! Also 3wave CTF wasn't any more official than the one for Quake. It's Q3 that had CTF out of the box (and not as a 'sanctioned' 3wave mod that time) and they weren't quite 'first' either.

What I meant was that CTF was a fanmade mod for Q1 while in the case of Q2 it was an official multiplayer mode. If you ask people about CTF most of them will say that Quake 2 was the first game where they played the mode, that's what popularization means.

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- Bunnyhopping and rocket jumping hasn't really "improved" or even more embraced. Sounds like pro-circlejerk "carmacks vision" BS right there

Q2 does not have bunny hopping, Q2 has the first implementation of "true" strafe jumping where you gain speed by continously jumping while holding down a strafe key and moving the mouse slowly in the strafe direction. There is no "revisionism" in saying that it was an intended game mechanic for multiplayer at this point, it's very easy to prove that id was well aware of how it worked simply by looking at the single player: there are points in the campaign where you could skip whole levels by strafe jumping but the game won't let you to land the jump that would make that possible. For example in order to reach the "B part" of the second map first you have to pass another level and extend a bridge that lets you through: you could easily strafe jump the gap between the two platforms connected by the bridge but the game doesn't let you.

As for the "Carmack's vision" thing: Carmack never liked strafe jumping, in fact he wanted to remove it from Q3 because it did not fit his concept of Quake's multiplayer. Thankfully the other devs on the team were against the idea and convinved him to leave strafe jumping in as it was in Q2.

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- Quake2 had NO multiplayer maps on launch. All of the maps included were made for single player. The "q2dm" maps are a point release patch into Spring 1998 post-release. Also claiming that as a 'franchise first' shows how much you know about Quake, which had dm1-6 on day 1 :rolleyes:

I never said that Q1 had no dedicated multiplayers maps, what I said was that Q2 was the first game in the franchise where all the multiplayer maps were made for multiplayer. You see, Q1 had some maps made for multiplayer (one "episode" called Deathmatch Arena) but most of the DM maps were just maps from the single player. You are correct in that the multiplayer content for Q2 arrived post-launch though.

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- Quake2 has no WASD defaults. It defaults to arrows.

Correct but I said that Q2 popularized the WASD layout. Why? Because even though the default was the arrow keys it had a config for the WASD setup. The story behind that is that a player called Thresh won the 1997 Red Annihilation tournament for Quake 1 with the WASD layout so id Software included the layout with Quake 2 as an alternative. A lot of guys were already copying Thresh's setup but this was the final push in making WASD the standard to the point where Half-Life shipped with WASD being the default (and I think HL1 was the first game that used it as the default layout).

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- Soundtrack was non-moody overdriven noise that didn't fit IMO, I turned it off since release.

Even though that's your opinion Q2's soundtrack is just as iconic as the one NIN made for the first game. I like both.

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- Quake2 ran very well on release. It wasn't a slow PC breaker. It ran better than GLHexen II and even GLQuake for many!!! Not having subdivided sky polygons does help and there's a CPU benefit from dropping the physics to 10hz (as ick as that may be). Even a Cyrix'd budget sucker could enjoy Quake2 nicely. Quake2 was not Unreal.

It ran like ass on a Voodoo1 though as shown in the Digital Foundry video.

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 10 January 2019 - 04:14 AM

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User is online   Zaxx 

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#54

Anyway when it comes to Quake 2 I get why the controvery about the game's quality is a thing and I'm not saying that the game is a design masterpiece because it's not. What Quake 2 is though is a good mechanical improvement on the early 3D FPS design and a good collection of ideas picked up from the modding community. Sometimes that's enough to push FPS forward.
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User is offline   leilei 

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#55

It's obvious you parrot youtubers though. Skimming that DF video had some similar BS about vertex wobble seen in this thread (implying animators manually animated vertices by hand - what), in addition to the poorly recorded "actual hardware" footage which appears to be a very bad recording. jfc the lack of research on their part


anyway I have more important things to do.


Spoiler


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This post has been edited by leilei: 10 January 2019 - 05:31 AM

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User is online   Zaxx 

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#56

View Postleilei, on 10 January 2019 - 05:28 AM, said:

also there's this little known once-popular-online game released in April 1997 called Outlaws. That shipped with WASD. Sorry GabeN and your favorite pros didn't invent it

Cool and I get that you seem to have some stupid grudge against the Quake multiplayer community but that doesn't change the fact that the WASD layout was invented by some guy playing Quake.

And if you look at the manual of Outlaws this is what you will find:
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So the default layout was the traditional keyboard layout and the WASD setup was the alternative for mouse and keyboard play.... the same as in Quake 2 and the reason why the WASD layout was included is again: a guy played Quake like that and it worked great.

Now what about Half-Life's manual?
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Oh shit, it seems like "GabeN" did not even use the keyboard layout and instead just went with the WASD+mouse controls BY DEFAULT.

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It's obvious you parrot youtubers though.

I'm not just parrotting youtubers but yes, I did state my source where I shared information I found in a Youtube video. You've yet to source a single thing you're stating though, just saying... and I don't accept "multiplayer quakers did not give a shit about my source port so I hate them" as a source. Really, the thing about Quake is that the moment you show a lack of appreciation for the esports scene is the moment where you discredit yourself because let's be honest: it was not id Software that made Quake into what it is now but the multiplayer community. They were the people who came up with maps, control layouts (and WASD is just one of those), game modes that ended up being picked up officially later and ultimately they had a huge part in refining the 3D FPS as a genre.

Anyway I find it weird that you even shit on Q2's soundtrack because one of the last things John Romero did at the company was that he gave Sonic Mayhem the job. You don't have to respect the soundtrack but at least respect Romero's decision.

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 10 January 2019 - 06:10 AM

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User is offline   thricecursed 

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#57

lei, were you heavily involved with the modding community of id tech games back in the day? How or why do you know this stuff? I can't speak to whether you're right or wrong, just seems like you at least have a lot of detailed technical knowledge. I'm kinda new on these forums, still figuring out who's who. The vertex wobble stuff I heard through the years by various people, I have no idea how they actually animated their models.

Edit: Just remembered Q2 used to run on real potato's back in the day, I saw that DF video too and was very confused why it performed so poorly on a Voodoo 1. I'm inclined to think they did something wrong.

This post has been edited by thricecursed: 10 January 2019 - 08:43 AM

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User is online   Zaxx 

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#58

View Postthricecursed, on 10 January 2019 - 08:40 AM, said:

Edit: Just remembered Q2 used to run on real potato's back in the day, I saw that DF video too and was very confused why it performed so poorly on a Voodoo 1. I'm inclined to think they did something wrong.

If you look up old benchmarks you'll find that what you see on the DF video is pretty much in the ballpark of what the Voodoo1 could do with the game (the bottom two cards are both Voodoo1):
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The CPU is where the data is missing really since back in the day your CPU could make a substantial difference, for example if you had a 3DNow! capable CPU back in the day you got a better framerate even with the Voodoo1.

This is Voodoo2 so it's not relevant but you get the idea:
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Voodoo1 sucks hard here too:
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But sure, DF fucked up (with all joking aside they kinda did but they were in the ballpark).

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 10 January 2019 - 11:18 AM

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User is offline   thricecursed 

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#59

My mate back in the day had some shitty 4mb card by ATI and it ran anything up to 1998 alright. That's my only point of comparison here. I think maybe the Voodoo 1 just sucked for Quake 2 for some reason. Hardly anyone had a 3dfx card where I'm from.
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User is offline   K1n9_Duk3 

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#60

View Postthricecursed, on 10 January 2019 - 11:48 AM, said:

My mate back in the day had some shitty 4mb card by ATI and it ran anything up to 1998 alright.


I'm not sure how anyone else feels about this, but my opinion on what frame rate is "alright" or even "acceptable" has changed drastically in the last decades. I still have the PCs on which I first played Duke 3D, Shadow Warrior and Blood. I remember playing them in 800x600 back in the day, but nowadays even 320x200 seems too slow on these machines.

Hail to the K1n9, baby!
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