[jkas789]

2nd dev diary of Cultic. I'm getting excited for this game.

Link to the youtube video, because for some reason the insert media thing of the forum is being a cunt.

[Balls of Steel Forever]

jkas789, on 20 February 2021 - 05:27 AM, said:

2nd dev diary of Cultic. I'm getting excited for this game.

Link to the youtube video, because for some reason the insert media thing of the forum is being a cunt.

I WILL DO THE LORDS WORK

[MrFlibble]

I jus copy YT links from the address bar but change https to http and it works fine with youtube tags.

[Balls of Steel Forever]

MrFlibble, on 22 February 2021 - 12:24 PM, said:

I jus copy YT links from the address bar but change https to http and it works fine with youtube tags.

SHHHHH
I MAY DO THE SAME
AND SOMETIMES HAVE TO CUT SOME STUFF
OR ADD WATCH?V=
IT DEPENDS

ALL HAIL THE LORD

[jkas789]

Lol, I also do the same but I guess I was having a brain fart.

Any ways, Cultic got two (1 , 2 ) more tweets showing more development.

Basically he has:

-added gibs
-added sten cultist
-added bullet whizzes/impacts
-added table flipping
-made enemy death pose 8-directional

It's nice to see the game taking shape. I like the gameplay that I'm seeing actually (at least the glimpses), hope when it is finally fine tuned the mapping is as good.

[Aristotle Gumball]

jkas789, on 23 February 2021 - 02:48 PM, said:

hope when it is finally fine tuned the mapping is as good.

Was gonna write the same thing before I read the bottom of your post. I feel like mapping is definitely the hardest thing to get right.

[jkas789]

It really is. Doom 2's gameplay is good however it is really let down by the latter half of the map pool IMO.

It can arguably make or break a game. Dusk's gameplay is not that revolutionary however the mapping in later levels makes the game feel better than it deserves. And this is from someone that loves Dusk.

[jkas789]

Another Twitter video released by the dev of Cultic.

Directly from the tweet:

Quote

Added an item class and item wheel! More items to come, but currently just wanted to get the field kit implemented.

You can only hold one field kit and it maxes at 100 - duplicates added for testing the wheel

[Malgon]

Came across Incision, a prototype game made in the vein of Quake. There's a download here for those who want to check it out.

[Mark]

I watched the first 2 minutes of the video. What I came away with was the cool creepy atmosphere and the crazy fast run and shoot style gameplay are not a good match.

[MrFlibble]

Stumbled upon Anarch via LibreGameWiki. It reminds me of Amiga Doom-alikes somewhat, which is an interesting design choice. The game is very small in size.

On another note, I started playing Harmony. It's probably worth noting that the preferable way to play is with Jimmy's MIDI pack, as the default MP3 soundtrack is limited (the MAP01 tune is okay, but after that it's all about annoying, repetitive drums that get old very soon). The game has remarkable style, both visually and in terms of level design and game balance. While most monsters have very clear Doom counterparts in terms of weaponry and behaviour, you're rather limited in ammo (and other supplies as well) save for the unlimited shot energy pistol, which encourages playing tactics that often get quite different from the usual stock Doom gunplay.

I also couldn't but notice that apparently, Doom engine somehow appears a pace behind Build when it comes to environment detail and "realism". Harmony maps are quite detailed compared to vanilla Doom levels, so comparisons with Duke3D and other Build games are inevitable. And the author evidently put a lot of effort to make everything look nice and varied, but it still feels, at least to me, made with a previous generation of tech compared to Build stuff (well, in a way it is true).

[Aristotle Gumball]

MrFlibble, on 12 August 2021 - 06:14 AM, said:

Stumbled upon Anarch via LibreGameWiki. It reminds me of Amiga Doom-alikes somewhat, which is an interesting design choice. The game is very small in size.

"suckless, anticapitalist, public domain game for everyone"

Well I'm sold.

[OpenMaw]

The only thing Incision has done so far that I don't like is have guns that look almost identical. That's a war crime in shooters. Every gun should feel different and compelling next to the others. You should instantly know what you're holding. Color, shade, is it wide, is it long, is it spiky, smooth, alien, industrial? All of these things can be used to define each weapon and make it stick out from the rest. Doom's arsenal cemented this. Every gun is distinct and instantly identifiable in your muscle memory. If you want to make fast shooter it's so important.

[ReaperAA]

MrFlibble, on 12 August 2021 - 06:14 AM, said:

I also couldn't but notice that apparently, Doom engine somehow appears a pace behind Build when it comes to environment detail and "realism". Harmony maps are quite detailed compared to vanilla Doom levels, so comparisons with Duke3D and other Build games are inevitable. And the author evidently put a lot of effort to make everything look nice and varied, but it still feels, at least to me, made with a previous generation of tech compared to Build stuff (well, in a way it is true).

Well that's obviously because Doom engine is older and comparing it with build is unfair. Though if you really want to see more environment "realism" in Doom (without using advanced engine like GZDoom), I would recommend checking out Lost Civilization wad. It is a Boom wad and thus can run on a more conservative port like PrBoom+.

If you include GZDoom under Doom engine, then there are some wads that can easily rival Build engine games. Blade of Agony (if we put aside controversial aspects) is a great example of environmental realism possible in GZDoom. And if we go for commercial stuff, then there is the upcoming Selaco

[WolfmanFP]

MrFlibble, on 12 August 2021 - 06:14 AM, said:

Stumbled upon Anarch via LibreGameWiki. It reminds me of Amiga Doom-alikes somewhat, which is an interesting design choice. The game is very small in size.

After playing this game, I looked up the author's website, and found this:

Quote

Pedophilia is a sexual orientation, not a disorder.

Seriously, fuck this guy.

[Balls of Steel Forever]

WolfmanFP, on 14 August 2021 - 02:49 AM, said:

After playing this game, I looked up the author's website, and found this:



Seriously, fuck this guy.

"Censorship is always wrong, possesion and sharing of any kind of information, including any type of pornography, has to be legal and moral. I agree with Richard Stallman on his views about child sexuality and pornography. I do NOT support any kind of rape, I love all people. All so called "private" information (e.g. medical records) should be public and in the public domain. Not sharing information has to be immoral."

richard stallman

https://www.insidehi...l-remarks-about

"Some pointed to his website, where he has since 2003 advocated for legalizing sex with minors and child pornography. In one post from that year, for example, in response to a proposed censorship law in Britain, Stallman wrote, “I think that everyone age 14 or above ought to take part in sex, though not indiscriminately. (Some people are ready earlier.) It is unnatural for humans to abstain from sex past puberty, and while I wouldn't try to pressure anyone to participate, I certainly encourage everyone to do so.”

In another post from 2003, Stallman quoted then-federal appeals court nominee William Pryor's argument that if choice in sexual partners was guaranteed by the Constitution, then “adultery, necrophilia, bestiality, possession of child pornography, and even incest and pedophilia” also would be, as well. Stallman’s analysis was that Pryor was “probably mistaken, legally -- but that is unfortunate. All of these acts should be legal as long as no one is coerced. They are illegal only because of prejudice and narrow-mindedness"

guy is totally not a pedo.

[Balls of Steel Forever]

anyways the game cage worked on

[MrFlibble]

ReaperAA, on 13 August 2021 - 09:00 AM, said:

Well that's obviously because Doom engine is older and comparing it with build is unfair.

Well, believe it or not, but I've always assumed "by default" that Doom is less detailed than Duke3D solely due to level design: id Software deliberately went into a more abstract direction for the sake of interesting gameplay, so you have nondescript techbases with basic props, while 3DR created environments that aimed to be realistic and interactive, so you've got breakable bottles, functional toilets and whatnot.

But apparently there is (or at least might be) a fundamental difference in how everything on the screen is drawn in either engine, which made me think, based on the example of Harmony, that Build games lend themselves more readily to greater detail in levels. I may be wrong on this, I just mentioned it as a thought which had never occurred to me before -- I had been under impression that the difference between idTech1 and Build was more in more or less minor details like the possibility of slopes, built-in higher resolutions, map scripting etc.

[MusicallyInspired]

MrFlibble, on 14 August 2021 - 01:31 PM, said:

But apparently there is (or at least might be) a fundamental difference in how everything on the screen is drawn in either engine, which made me think, based on the example of Harmony, that Build games lend themselves more readily to greater detail in levels.

I've always assumed this was the case. id Tech 1 is older than Build by a few years. I never thought of Doom being designed the way it was solely for gameplay and not realism. As a kid, I always thought it was every developer's goal to make things as realistic as possible.

Quote

I may be wrong on this, I just mentioned it as a thought which had never occurred to me before -- I had been under impression that the difference between idTech1 and Build was more in more or less minor details like the possibility of slopes, built-in higher resolutions, map scripting etc.

I figured things like sector limitations would be much stricter in id Tech 1 as well. Seeing as Duke3D requires lots of sectors to accomplish some of those realism factors, especially lighting.

[Ninety-Six]

I remember that Carmack almost put slopes into the Doom engine but didn't. I'm not sure if that was ever explained why. If it was a performance thing or creative decision.


Regarding the realism thing, I do think the technology did play a part in their decision to go abstract. Even when modders went semi-realistic, they never quite pulled it off as well as Build's psuedo-realism (at least as seen in the big four). The lack of a floor-over-floor function (even if fake like in Build through SOS) really hurt the realism in human environments, since we build up, and the lack of slopes hurt it in more natural environments.

Not that I'm criticizing Doom for this, to be clear.

[Malgon]

It seems that Cultic now has a demo for download on Steam as part of Realms Deep 2021:

https://store.steamp...1684930/CULTIC/

And some more shooters from Realms Deep 2021:

https://store.steamp.../realmsdeep2021

[MrFlibble]

Ninety-Six, on 14 August 2021 - 09:16 PM, said:

Regarding the realism thing, I do think the technology did play a part in their decision to go abstract. Even when modders went semi-realistic, they never quite pulled it off as well as Build's psuedo-realism (at least as seen in the big four). The lack of a floor-over-floor function (even if fake like in Build through SOS) really hurt the realism in human environments, since we build up, and the lack of slopes hurt it in more natural environments.

When I'm talking about the departure from realism in Doom's design, I primarily have in mind the concepts and early designs of the Tom Hall era where you can see stuff like chairs and other decorations, and the bases were supposed to have meaningful "realistic" layouts (crew quarters, mess hall, command post etc.), even though the architecture is still rather Wolf3D-like as the new engine's potential was just being explored by the mappers.

Interestingly, when you look at Wolf3D, it actually manages, at least in some places, to create this illusion of meaningful realistic locations, by careful positioning of props and wall textures. You can find what is undoubtedly a kitchen, a mess hall or a storage room in the levels, recognizable without the need for any complex layout the game's engine is simply incapable of. Another good example of the same effect is the shareware episode of Nitemare-3D that gives you a pretty believable (haunted) house by using largely a similar arsenal of decorations and effects as Wolf3D.

Back to Doom, before playing Hamony my prime example of Doom going Duke3D-ish would be HacX, which actually pulls it off rather well I think. But as far as I can tell, HacX design, by incident or on purpose, is careful not to overstep the engine's limitations, so it feels like an enhancement to Doom that flows naturally into Duke3D/Build engine's greater realism. Whereas I have found some areas in Harmony, carefully detailed and thought out as they are, and just could not shrug off the feeling that the same would look better/crisper/more convincing (?) and likely less "coarse" if it was a Duke3D TC -- even if running with the vanilla DOS version at 640x480 (I'm playing Harmony with the default ZDoom-based binary at the preset 800x600 resolution).

[oasiz]

I think the key limitations in doom are lack slopes, per surface lighting (really important for creating contrast and proper "3D" ), inability to move sectors in other than Z axis and the resolution.
In build you can double the floor's pixel density, create very high resolution wall textures (albeit with repetition) and same for sprites.
Aside from floor/ceiling, you could already create maps that rivalled the texture resolution of of some of late 90s games.
I think RR demonstrates this well despite the art style being a bit flawed.

[Ninety-Six]

MrFlibble, on 15 August 2021 - 09:01 AM, said:

When I'm talking about the departure from realism in Doom's design, I primarily have in mind the concepts and early designs of the Tom Hall era where you can see stuff like chairs and other decorations, and the bases were supposed to have meaningful "realistic" layouts (crew quarters, mess hall, command post etc.), even though the architecture is still rather Wolf3D-like as the new engine's potential was just being explored by the mappers.

Yeah, that's true. I do remember the barracks, kitchens, and bathroms. That was definitely a Tom Hall thing, so I see your point.

oasiz, on 15 August 2021 - 11:36 AM, said:

per surface lighting (really important for creating contrast and proper "3D" )

I'm actually confused about what this is. I'm guessing it's not quite the same thing as sector lighting.

[oasiz]

sector lighting in doom applies the same shade to every wall, floor and ceiling. In Build you can assign each attribute (face) it's own shade value.
A simple example would be a hanging ceiling lamp, while you can create a circle of light on the floor, it would also apply the exact same bright shade to the ceiling.

There are tricks to go around this but it's about as wasteful as creating diagonal wall shades in duke, just nasty and not very practical.
There is still sector level precision involved when it comes to floor/ceiling splits for both, just that build allows you full control.

[MrFlibble]

Glad you brought this up, because I definitely thought about shading (without understanding the technical details between the two engines) when comparing Harmony to Build stuff. I don't want to sound like I'm criticising though, it's just an observation -- even more justified because Harmony's author definitely did not aim to create solely a Doom-like game, more like a tribute to all the 90s classics including Duke3D as well.

[Kralex]

WolfmanFP, on 14 August 2021 - 02:49 AM, said:

After playing this game, I looked up the author's website, and found this:



Seriously, fuck this guy.

Dislikes gay marriage but supports paedophilia. What a stand up citizen.

EDIT: Forget the pedo stuff, he has Jar Jar Binks on his list of likes!!

[jkas789]

Kralex, on 19 August 2021 - 08:09 PM, said:

Dislikes gay marriage but supports paedophilia. What a stand up citizen.

EDIT: Forget the pedo stuff, he has Jar Jar Binks on his list of likes!!

Me a guy who studied medicine: Yeah I agree with that.



Me, a guy who rotated through pediatrics and pediatric psychiatry: Fuck you.

This guy is all over the place.

[Aristotle Gumball]

An anti-capitalist, racist, homophobic anarcho-pedophile. Spicy!

[MrFlibble]

All this discussion of retro FPS games made me suddenly realise something. Back in the 90s, when I talked about games (regardless of genre) with my friends, and the way games were represented in magazines, playing was often discussed in terms of "getting to" or "getting through" certain parts -- not only referring to difficult places or boss battles, but generally reflecting the idea of progression towards a certain goal, which is often about beating the big bad and/or saving something or someone.

I suddenly realised that nowadays I rarely think about playing in these terms -- it's more about exploration and enjoyment, or simply spending some free time. Of course, there is still the idea of progression, but it's more about change of scenery, the enemy roster and/or new weapons/items, rather than a sense of getting closer to some kind of goal. While I think that this is generally what FPS games inevitably lean to, as exemplified by the famous John Carmack quote about the plot in video games, it's still somewhat of unusual contrast for myself to remember how we were focussed more on beating level X and getting to level Y. Maybe it's just because as the skill as a player grows, beating games gets more of a routine, and you start to appreciate more the playing itself.

Although I'm not sure, I remember recent discussions about Commander Keen games and Civvie11's Bio Menace playthrough, where the beating a level or boss part was the main challenge, pushing everything else to the sidelines. In this respect, I highly appreciate it that in games like Duke3D and Ion Fury, you get to explore a lot and have fun replaying levels because of the freedom you have, as opposed to learning through failure to time your actions against a pattern of enemies in some side-scroller where retrying honestly feels like banging the head against a wall to me.