[Forge]

pander

[Danukem]

The shirt's not wrong. Also, it seems like everyone is playing Fallout 4 again now (me included), after the Fallout 76 announcement.

[Toxic34]

All right, I'm going to take the opportunity to be real here. I promise to try to go light with political references here, but I'll have to make some brief mentions to hammer my points. You've been forewarned.

Look, the fact of the matter is that all this talk about "social agendas" in current shows, movies and games is virtually nonexistent. Are there certainly moments where something does have such an agenda? Of course there are, but they're an aberration, not a sign of a "prevailing trend" or "identity politics ruining everything." Entertainment products exist to make money for big companies, and they know for a fact that to maximize their earning potential, they're going to refrain from overly political statements or identifying with one ideology over another, in order to appeal to those on the left, the right, and in between. It is ridiculous that Wolfenstein II: The New Colossus is called "socialist/communist propaganda", when the only such character barely adheres in the story and is defeated in his debate with BJ. My conservative stepfather, for example, is convinced that the first Jurassic World film has an antiwar message with Vincent D'Onofrio's character and the plans to weaponize Owen Grady's trained raptors. Of course, this isn't anything remotely resembling a real antiwar message, because it only briefly brushes against that idea, and if anything, would be more using it to represent the folly of man attempting to control dinosaurs. Not to mention, Universal, or more appropriately, Comcast (the owner), certainly would not piss up that rope for a film like this. Same way with those who seriously thought that The Lego Movie was anti-corporation. Yeah, because a movie involving the product of a company that makes billions of dollars every year and wants the tie-in merchandise to sell would really have such a message. And if you believe that, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

However, the fact is that there is a need for entertainment, and games in particular, to have a greater representation of characters who aren't straight white males, who are sympathetic, and aren't reduced to mere cliches and archetypes. For more heroic women to be in the vein of Ripley or Sarah Conner, and move away from either sex goddess, whimpering damsel, or leather-clad fight masters. To have protagonists allowed to be vulnerable and capable of failure. Games like Life is Strange go a long way to fulfilling this. Likewise, the characters established in the current slate of Star Wars films have proven themselves to be able and fitting successors to those from the first six films. There is a very real, organic line from Anakin Skywalker, Padme Amidala, Qui-Gon Jinn, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Yoda, Luke Skywalker, Han Solo and Princess Leia to Rey, Finn, Poe Dameron, Rose Tico and Maz Kanata. Complaints to the contrary are largely driven by irrational hatred and misogyny. And those who aren't necessary bigots are carrying water for them, because of the corroding and corrupting influence of the execrable CinemaSins and sheep on the Internet following threads that throw the phrase "plot hole" around too loosely (seriously, many things are listed as plot holes that aren't even remotely so these days) and trying to determine which side is the "hip" one. Of course, all that is better suited for a separate post.

Of course not everything works out well. For those who look at Avatar: The Last Airbender's sequel series The Legend Of Korra, and complain about the end pairing of Korra and Asami, they didn't do so simply to pander to people. And LGBT couplings deserve to be shown in a worthy manner. Of course, the question is whether is makes logical sense given the events in the show, and whether it was a bit forced and contrived in its execution. Given that Korra is messy and not quite as focused as the original series, that's a very real possibility, though I'll admit that I can't determine with certainty. Then there's what was done with the plot and endings of Far Cry 5. Some people were of course feeling the fact that Eden's Gate isn't as reactionary and ultra-right wing as some might expect means that the game is moving to be apolitical and pussyfoot around something that could've been a "great opportunity to stand for something." This fails to take into account that many of the worst and most infamous cults were more inclusive and not known as white supremacist, especially Heaven's Gate or Jonestown. Unlike what some corners of YouTube say, people aren't upset because "the game doesn't portray conservatives as monsters." (Many people center-left and liberal know that most conservatives are good people, but many of the worst offenders in terms of crimes, violence and hate tend to have conservative beliefs.) If anything, what people would complain about is whether the world building is as good as what Far Cry 3 and 4 established, and feeling that choosing between a bad ending and an apocalyptic ending leaves one feeling like nothing was worth it in the end.

A great deal of things like this are overblown and overhyped by the media in part because the trolls that are part of the "anti-PC" brigade (some from the remnants of GamerGate and various loosely affiliated groupings), though they make up a very obvious minority, are able to amplify their presence over the Internet to make themselves seem larger than they really are. And this is also because the corporate-owned media tend to be lazy, and are interested in having narratives to sell, clickbait to furnish, and money to make. There is also a tendency to overexaggerate the presence and power of those few who do weaponize social justice concerns to settle scores and stifle dissent. (Note: "social justice warrior" is not a suitable insult to describe them. This term is describes individuals like Dr. King, Malcolm X, Medgar Evers, Rosa Parks, Susan B. Anthony, Cesar Chavez, and Russell Means. The word to describe these rotten apples is one that's common and already exists: "bully.") Anita Sarkeesian certainly isn't right about everything, and can be a bit too reductionist in her beliefs, but the points she made about the toxicity in gaming circles the way video games do not have a sterling reputation in doing well in portrayals of characters who aren't straight white males are important and very straight on. And there's no denying that GamerGate was just started to ruin the life of Zoe Quinn, because her ex-boyfriend couldn't move on and started scurrilous and slanderous rumors, out of both revenge and "just for the lulz."

There are no easy answers to things like this, and nothing is black and white. All we have to do is take things as they come.

[Forge]

Interesting viewpoint.
I respectfully disagree and believe that cave you live in must be warm and cozy.

The 'fact' is these people named in the topic who made this game bluntly came out and said they had a social justice agenda, and if you weren't down for it, then you are a nazi, the game isn't for you, and you can go F yourself.

It's even worse when directors, producers, etc. try to be subversive with their propaganda, then they start ruining shit for their own agenda.

[Forge]

counter-pander

[Forge]

This is the industry. This attitude is usually coddled and fostered. Rarely does the company have the boldness to value their customers over their dangerous virtue signalers.

base story


mah whamen's feels


I'm just going to predict that this person will sue for wrongful termination

[PokeThePower]

leilei, on 06 July 2018 - 12:25 PM, said:

.......It's just a fucking kiss.

There was a time where I was considered a creep for wanting to have girls kissing in my games.

Now I'm a creep if I don't think it's really all that relevant to the product and kinda forced.

[Danukem]

Toxic34, on 12 July 2018 - 06:54 PM, said:

It is ridiculous that Wolfenstein II: The New Colossus is called "socialist/communist propaganda", when the only such character barely adheres in the story and is defeated in his debate with BJ.

I returned that game when I got annoyed with it. Here's the thing: yes, Nazis will be Nazis, but if you are paying attention you can tell when writers are pushing an agenda above and beyond merely having Nazis as the villains. The last straw for me was pretty early in the game when BJ has a flashback about his evil father who beats him etc. His father was not one of the Nazis (as far as I know), but my jaw dropped as, in the course of a few minutes, his father exhibited an impressive checklist of traits the left accuses the right of having. Not only does he beat his son, but he's also sexist, racist, xenophobic, anti-gay and cruel to animals. He manages to make all of this clear in a monologue, and it's very shoehorned in. I actually laughed at loud, it was so forced and convenient that all of those topics would come up. That's one way you can tell someone has an agenda, by the way: when the quality of writing takes a nosedive so that a character can be shown to have certain traits to make them a good example for a certain ideological perspective. Since I was annoyed at the obvious lecturing about evil white males that was being shoehorned into what should have been a moving scene, I decided I had had enough.

Also, let's be real about context. Think about this topic in terms of how you would interpret other human beings. If you know that someone is racist (because they have said so), and they make a remark that can be interpreted as racist....then if you are paying attention you are going to interpret it as racist, and you will be right. If game developers have come out on social media and declared their social agenda, you know that they have one. So in that context, when they put something in a game that can be interpreted as pushing that agenda...then if you are paying attention you are going to notice they are pushing that agenda in the game.

tldr; some of us are paying attention

[PikaCommando]

What if video games are the way they are because they're developed by young people who want to fulfill their teenage fantasies, even if their fantasies are vastly different today since the youth of today are more politically active?

[PokeThePower]

PikaCommando, on 13 July 2018 - 10:51 AM, said:

What if video games are the way they are because they're developed by young people who want to fulfill their teenage fantasies, even if their fantasies are vastly different today since the youth of today are more politically active?

This line of thinking can take you some super awkward places...

[Toxic34]

Trooper Dan, on 13 July 2018 - 10:36 AM, said:

I returned that game when I got annoyed with it. Here's the thing: yes, Nazis will be Nazis, but if you are paying attention you can tell when writers are pushing an agenda above and beyond merely having Nazis as the villains. The last straw for me was pretty early in the game when BJ has a flashback about his evil father who beats him etc. His father was not one of the Nazis (as far as I know), but my jaw dropped as, in the course of a few minutes, his father exhibited an impressive checklist of traits the left accuses the right of having. Not only does he beat his son, but he's also sexist, racist, xenophobic, anti-gay and cruel to animals. He manages to make all of this clear in a monologue, and it's very shoehorned in. I actually laughed at loud, it was so forced and convenient that all of those topics would come up. That's one way you can tell someone has an agenda, by the way: when the quality of writing takes a nosedive so that a character can be shown to have certain traits to make them a good example for a certain ideological perspective. Since I was annoyed at the obvious lecturing about evil white males that was being shoehorned into what should have been a moving scene, I decided I had had enough.

Also, let's be real about context. Think about this topic in terms of how you would interpret other human beings. If you know that someone is racist (because they have said so), and they make a remark that can be interpreted as racist....then if you are paying attention you are going to interpret it as racist, and you will be right. If game developers have come out on social media and declared their social agenda, you know that they have one. So in that context, when they put something in a game that can be interpreted as pushing that agenda...then if you are paying attention you are going to notice they are pushing that agenda in the game.

tldr; some of us are paying attention

As I said, these individuals are an aberration, not a prevailing trend.

The representation of BJ's father represents more than anything, that his bigotry and hatred stems largely from his inability to take responsibility for his own failures, similar to BoJack Horseman's father with his failed writing career. Also, the prospective traits of BJ's father are a bridge too far, but the Nazis reverse engineering technology far more advanced than anything that existed before because a Hebrew secret society effectively created technology with hints of assistance from ancient astronauts isn't? Wolfenstein has always taken its narratives to ludicrous extremes, with games that are just there to provide a chance to kill Nazis. If anything, the writing is exactly the same as it was before in 2014, in 2009, in 2001, and even back in 1992. And keep in mind that no matter what apparent obstacle or person with different perspective BJ finds, with the exception of the reunion with his father, he is able to convince that individual that he is right, and that they should join in the fight. Again, look at the conversation with Horton to show how BJ wins the argument in the end, and how very little is ever made of Horton's socialist beliefs. After that scene, it is effectively dropped completely.

[PokeThePower]

I am extremely entertained that each time you type BJ I can play a mini choose your own adventure game and flip between pretending you're referring to Blazkowicz, BoJack, or Blowjob.

[Toxic34]

RunReneeRun, on 13 July 2018 - 11:53 AM, said:

I am extremely entertained that each time you type BJ I can play a mini choose your own adventure game and flip between pretending you're referring to Blazkowicz, BoJack, or Blowjob.

Well, I aim to please and entertain, above all else.

[Danukem]

Toxic34, on 13 July 2018 - 11:42 AM, said:

Also, the prospective traits of BJ's father are a bridge too far, but the Nazis reverse engineering technology far more advanced than anything that existed before because a Hebrew secret society effectively created technology with hints of assistance from ancient astronauts isn't?

So by that "logic", in a fictional setting that contains fantastic elements, we should ignore any bad writing that is clearly motivated by ideology on the grounds that in a fantasy world, anything goes. That's not how writing works and you should know better.

Let's pretend it was a game about fighting Stalinists instead of Nazis. Nothing wrong with that. And the Stalinists, being Stalinists, have the extreme communist far left views you would expect. Still, nothing wrong with that. But now let's say there's a flashback scene where we meet the protagonist's mom. She's a fat, lazy SJW who is chemically castrating her son as part of his forced gender reassignment and her every waking moment not spent browsing tumblr is spent expressing hatred at cis-gender males and capitalism. Now, certainly, someone like that can exist, just as someone like BJ's dad can exist. But in the context (again, let's imagine a full equivalent context), I think most people would understand that the extreme and gratuitous portrayal of the character expressed a viewpoint of the developer. It's really not that difficult to see.

No one is saying that the game should be censored or that the devs don't have the right to express their views or put in what they want. But we have the right to point it out, and if we don't like it we don't have to buy it. When you go into denial about it you just look silly.

[Toxic34]

Trooper Dan, on 13 July 2018 - 12:45 PM, said:

So by that "logic", in a fictional setting that contains fantastic elements, we should ignore any bad writing that is clearly motivated by ideology on the grounds that in a fantasy world, anything goes. That's not how writing works and you should know better.

Let's pretend it was a game about fighting Stalinists instead of Nazis. Nothing wrong with that. And the Stalinists, being Stalinists, have the extreme communist far left views you would expect. Still, nothing wrong with that. But now let's say there's a flashback scene where we meet the protagonist's mom. She's a fat, lazy SJW who is chemically castrating her son as part of his forced gender reassignment and her every waking moment not spent browsing tumblr is spent expressing hatred at cis-gender males and capitalism. Now, certainly, someone like that can exist, just as someone like BJ's dad can exist. But in the context (again, let's imagine a full equivalent context), I think most people would understand that the extreme and gratuitous portrayal of the character expressed a viewpoint of the developer. It's really not that difficult to see.

No one is saying that the game should be censored or that the devs don't have the right to express their views or put in what they want. But we have the right to point it out, and if we don't like it we don't have to buy it. When you go into denial about it you just look silly.

It's not ideologically-driven writing. I t simply isn't. Because supporting the viewpoints of Nazis is utterly, unambiguously wrong. There is no debate about this, and it's truly baffling to see how sections of the right are now throwing all support for "Never Again" out the window and hooking up with skinheads and calling them victims of oppression. Freedom of speech is not the same thing as freedom from consequences. And creating your strawman "equivalent context" only reeks of false equivocation, like corporate media has been doing for far too long.

I did not say fantasy means "ignore bad writing." What I'm saying is that elements automatically slapped as "bad writing" are far more alike to what came before than many will admit. I mean, aliens in Indiana Jones is too far, but face-melting power, blood sacrifice, escaping over a waterfall on a flimsy raft and the Holy Grail weren't?

[Hank]

Trooper Dan, on 13 July 2018 - 12:45 PM, said:

So by that "logic", in a fictional setting that contains fantastic elements, we should ignore any bad writing that is clearly motivated by ideology on the grounds that in a fantasy world, anything goes. That's not how writing works and you should know better.

Yep,
I can't find the quote, in the old 3D Realms forums, but it goes something like that (in 1999 or there about)
George Broussard:
If there is nothing in a game you dislike - we failed.

Fast forward to 2018, the basics on selling games have not changed. If two girls kissing is offensive, do it, not because it's wrong for a certain crowd, but it gets attention, and attention gets sales.

Keep in mind, the game is very violent, when you play it. No time for kisses.

[Danukem]

Toxic34, on 13 July 2018 - 12:59 PM, said:

It's not ideologically-driven writing. I t simply isn't.

Well, I did provide evidence insofar as time and space allowed. You are just denying. I'm not sure why it's so important for you to deny that there is an ideological bias on display in the game. It's not like it's going to crush your worldview or something. Look, I lean slightly conservative, and I can admit that Fox news has a right-wing bias. it really doesn't hurt that much to admit it.

Toxic34, on 13 July 2018 - 12:59 PM, said:

Because supporting the viewpoints of Nazis is utterly, unambiguously wrong. There is no debate about this, and it's truly baffling to see how sections of the right are now throwing all support for "Never Again" out the window and hooking up with skinheads and calling them victims of oppression.

Why are you changing the subject? Yes, Nazis are evil. No, I don't support anyone in the right who embraces Nazi ideals etc.

Toxic34, on 13 July 2018 - 12:59 PM, said:

Freedom of speech is not the same thing as freedom from consequences. And creating your strawman "equivalent context" only reeks of false equivocation, like corporate media has been doing for far too long.

It's a thought experiment. I'm simply pointing out that an equivalent bias from the right would be easy for you to see. You don't seem to have a good grasp of what a strawman argument is. Also, bringing in "corporate media" again shows that you can't stay on topic.

Toxic34, on 13 July 2018 - 12:59 PM, said:

I did not say fantasy means "ignore bad writing." What I'm saying is that elements automatically slapped as "bad writing" are far more alike to what came before than many will admit. I mean, aliens in Indiana Jones is too far, but face-melting power, blood sacrifice, escaping over a waterfall on a flimsy raft and the Holy Grail weren't?

My point was that it's a pretty obvious example of ideological bias affecting writing. The fantasy setting is irrelevant. You claimed that it was relevant somehow. It's not. One can detect an ideological bias even in a fantasy setting with many ridiculous plot points.

[Toxic34]

Trooper Dan, on 13 July 2018 - 01:28 PM, said:

Well, I did provide evidence insofar as time and space allowed. You are just denying. I'm not sure why it's so important for you to deny that there is an ideological bias on display in the game. It's not like it's going to crush your worldview or something. Look, I lean slightly conservative, and I can admit that Fox news has a right-wing bias. it really doesn't hurt that much to admit it.



Why are you changing the subject? Yes, Nazis are evil. No, I don't support anyone in the right who embraces Nazi ideals etc.



It's a thought experiment. I'm simply pointing out that an equivalent bias from the right would be easy for you to see. You don't seem to have a good grasp of what a strawman argument is. Also, bringing in "corporate media" again shows that you can't stay on topic.



My point was that it's a pretty obvious example of ideological bias affecting writing. The fantasy setting is irrelevant. You claimed that it was relevant somehow. It's not. One can detect an ideological bias even in a fantasy setting with many ridiculous plot points.

I can admit when something is ideological, even with something on my corner. No one denies that the film Good Night and Good Luck, in recounting Edward R. Murrow's offensive against Joseph McCarthy, is also meant to be an allegory about the War on Terror. Nor that many of the films of Hayao Miyazaki and Isao Takahata have messages about environmental destruction, the dangers of technological progress, and commentary against the idea of war in general. But Wolfenstein is simply, at its heart, sheer violent, gory fun and nothing more. Sometimes a game is just a game. You don't have to invent something that isn't there, just like you don't have to invent Jar Jar Binks being a racist caricature. Just say he's annoying and leave it at that.

When I bring something in, I bring it in to reinforce my point, not to change the subject. Sometimes, people aren't going to understand that, but that can't be helped. And the fact remains that your "equivalent version" of BJ's father is a strawman, just like PC Principal in South Park is a strawman. Where everything is reduced to sheer absurd extremes and misinformation about how a certain group behaves. Even those reprehensible few who do use social justice concerns as an excuse to launch a vendetta against other people and silence them do not behave in the manner that you ascribe to this "equivalent character." This shows a complete and utter lack of understanding about gender dysphoria and third wave feminism. Like how M. Night Shaymalan wrote his "critic" character in Lady in the Water.

What I was saying with regards to fantasy settings is that with suspension of disbelief, you can allow quite a bit in. So it goes with BJ's father. But also, seeing as how you can't see the point they were going for, and that his hatred is more due to finding a scapegoat to avoid taking responsibility for himself than anything else, I can understand why it washed over you. Of course, there is a limit to how much you can allow, but Wolfenstein does not reach this limit. And bear in mind, your point would stand if the game were ideological, which it isn't.

[PokeThePower]

Toxic34, on 13 July 2018 - 12:28 PM, said:

Well, I aim to please and entertain, above all else.

Ditto.

I'm being very gentle here... but I can assure you that there is a very real cadre of entertainers that hold their agenda higher than your pleasure or entertainment.

To openly question their motives is risky for the majority of entertainers that just want to please and entertain you.

Thankfully, they can't help themselves and are turning everyone off faster than two girls kissing in a male/male porno so it's a situation that will probably resolve itself soon enough.

[Danukem]

Toxic34, on 13 July 2018 - 01:45 PM, said:

When I bring something in, I bring it in to reinforce my point, not to change the subject. Sometimes, people aren't going to understand that, but that can't be helped. And the fact remains that your "equivalent version" of BJ's father is a strawman, just like PC Principal in South Park is a strawman. Where everything is reduced to sheer absurd extremes and misinformation about how a certain group behaves. Even those reprehensible few who do use social justice concerns as an excuse to launch a vendetta against other people and silence them do not behave in the manner that you ascribe to this "equivalent character." This shows a complete and utter lack of understanding about gender dysphoria and third wave feminism. Like how M. Night Shaymalan wrote his "critic" character in Lady in the Water.

None of these characters, neither the ones you listed nor the one I made up, should be taken as a fair representation of any real demographic group, and that includes BJ's dad. I understand enough about gender dysphoria and third wave feminism to know that the offensive character I suggested would push certain buttons...which apparently it did. It seems that my example succeeded. I think people would be offended by a character like that in a game, especially if it were serious and not a parody, because they would infer that the character was supposed to represent an actual group of people that the developers were targeting. That was my point.

Toxic34, on 13 July 2018 - 01:45 PM, said:

What I was saying with regards to fantasy settings is that with suspension of disbelief, you can allow quite a bit in. So it goes with BJ's father. But also, seeing as how you can't see the point they were going for, and that his hatred is more due to finding a scapegoat to avoid taking responsibility for himself than anything else, I can understand why it washed over you. Of course, there is a limit to how much you can allow, but Wolfenstein does not reach this limit. And bear in mind, your point would stand if the game were ideological, which it isn't.

We'll have to agree to disagree about whether I am detecting an actual social agenda, or whether as you say, it's just an exaggerated character looking for scapegoats in an already outlandish game. I don't wish to continue arguing the point because I don't think it would useful to anyone.

[Forge]

using strawmen to argue about stereotypical agenda-based strawmen in video games.
I could build a railroad with all the irony.

Toxic34, on 13 July 2018 - 01:45 PM, said:

What I was saying with regards to fantasy settings is that with suspension of disbelief, you can allow quite a bit in.

And you can allow quite a bit of denial to deflect culpability.

electrons will flow back the way they came if the polarity is reversed

[Toxic34]

Trooper Dan, on 13 July 2018 - 03:42 PM, said:

None of these characters, neither the ones you listed nor the one I made up, should be taken as a fair representation of any real demographic group, and that includes BJ's dad. I understand enough about gender dysphoria and third wave feminism to know that the offensive character I suggested would push certain buttons...which apparently it did. It seems that my example succeeded. I think people would be offended by a character like that in a game, especially if it were serious and not a parody, because they would infer that the character was supposed to represent an actual group of people that the developers were targeting. That was my point.



We'll have to agree to disagree about whether I am detecting an actual social agenda, or whether as you say, it's just an exaggerated character looking for scapegoats in an already outlandish game. I don't wish to continue arguing the point because I don't think it would useful to anyone.

Well, the only thing I'll say to finish off is this. I wasn't personally offended by your hypothetical. My reaction to it was not because I was offended. I merely was pointing out how I felt.

[Forge]

Toxic34, on 13 July 2018 - 07:38 PM, said:

how I felt.

and that's the crux of it.

[PokeThePower]

Toxic34, on 13 July 2018 - 07:38 PM, said:

Well, the only thing I'll say to finish off is this. I wasn't personally offended by your hypothetical. My reaction to it was not because I was offended. I merely was pointing out how I felt.

I don't think it was your offense that was ever in question.

There's an entirely different customer segment from you.

Do you see the challenge in front of developers without a political goal and just want to sell to everyone?

[Forge]

Toxic34, on 12 July 2018 - 06:54 PM, said:

Look, the fact of the matter is
know for a fact t
However, the fact is
the fact that

Toxic34, on 13 July 2018 - 07:38 PM, said:

how I felt.

[xMobilemux]

Hank, on 13 July 2018 - 01:24 PM, said:

Fast forward to 2018, the basics on selling games have not changed. If two girls kissing is offensive, do it, not because it's wrong for a certain crowd, but it gets attention, and attention gets sales.

Not necessarily, the wrong kind of attention can result in a product loosing sales because of a backlash and that's far more common these days.

Star Wars Battlefront 2 got a lot of attention, it missed sales targets and further progressed the stigmatization of Loot Boxes.
There was also that DmC Devil May Cry situation that thankfully had a successful boycott and now we're getting DMC5, a game I've wanted for 10 years.

But then there's the kind of attention that can rally a ton of support from gamers in the fight against those with the agendas, the whole PlayAsia.com supporting Dead or Alive Xtreme 3 worked out fantastic for them even when the mainstream media tried to shame them.
(Koei Techmo however didn't get the memo as they've pissed off the DoA fanbase by removing all the fan service, we'll see how that works out for them)

Also there was that whole so called "WaifuHolocaust" thing on Steam in which Valve employees were bullying the developers of those adult games and forcing massive censorship bullshit on them(even those games that were already censored for years) and that caused an uproar from the gamers and the devs.
Once Valve saw that gamers were mad and the devs of those adult games were abandoning Steam for GoG.com, Valve backed off and we have their "Hands off" policy they have now.
Also that whole Guild Wars 2 dev thing, I can't speak for the sales of GW2 cause there isn't any way to track the sales of that game, but according to Steamcharts, sales for the first game have taken a little jump.
So despite the media painting ArenaNet as the villains and that clueless dev playing the victim card, the gamers apparently still have AreanNet's back.

The Naughty Dog situation will take a while to get going cause they still have their massive fanbase that's taking a while to wake up to all this stuff.

[Forge]

xMobilemux, on 13 July 2018 - 09:30 PM, said:

But then there's the kind of attention that can rally a ton of support from gamers in the fight against those with the agendas, the whole PlayAsia.com supporting Dead or Alive Xtreme 3 worked out fantastic for them even when the mainstream media tried to shame them.
(Koei Techmo however didn't get the memo as they've pissed off the DoA fanbase by removing all the fan service, we'll see how that works out for them)

So you're suggesting that once a company puts fan-service in their games, they can never remove it without backlash?
Good to know.
They wouldn't have that problem if they never went down that path. Should have made characters that are relatable, not eye-candy that are annoying as fuck to listen to once you throw a blanket over them.

[xMobilemux]

Forge, on 13 July 2018 - 09:59 PM, said:

So you're suggesting that once a company puts fan-service in their games, they can never remove it without backlash?
Good to know.
They wouldn't have that problem if they never went down that path. Should have made characters that are relatable, not eye-candy that are annoying as fuck to listen to once you throw a blanket over them.

Not these days at least when gamers are seeing it as a hostile take over.
The DoA devs aren't handling it very well either, saying that the reason for smaller boobs are so the women seem more human without realizing that they've just dehumanized all the real life women who do look like that.
(That's not me exaggerating, there are really female gamers out there unhappy with this)

Even after gamers went out of their way to break Xtreme series sales records through importing after the devs refused to release it internationally due to SJW influence(the devs themselves confirmed that), they're still doing this.

They could have avoided all this with a simple option that enables/disables the fan service, but nope, the entire lot of fan service has got a go, no choice in the matter.

Soul Calibur 6 is gonna benefit off this for sure.

[Forge]

xMobilemux, on 13 July 2018 - 10:17 PM, said:

They could have avoided all this with a simple option that enables/disables the fan service

or by not putting it in the game in the first place and actually developing characters to have personalities, stories, and to be relatable.

[PokeThePower]

Toxic34, on 12 July 2018 - 06:54 PM, said:

Look, the fact of the matter is
know for a fact t
However, the fact is
the fact that

Toxic34, on 13 July 2018 - 07:38 PM, said:

how I felt.

Forge, on 13 July 2018 - 07:43 PM, said:

and that's the crux of it.