[The Mechanic]

Are the Eduke developers interested in help with work on the official Mapster version ? I'm implementing mods for my own purposes, most of which would benefit the official version.

As I use mapster a lot, it is in my interest to improve it and of course test it. I'm not proposing any kind of radical new stuff - at least not for now - merely polishing/tweaking/fixing what is already there. I'm not proposing to go anywhere near Eduke, poly-wotsits, that kinda stuff.

As you don't know me from Adam, I can understand that letting someone in and potentially reaking havoc among the source code might mean the answer is no. However, I'm capable of working things out - no risk of me pestering with a zillion "how does this bit of code work?" type questions and I'm diligent enough not just to fix it but to fix it the right way. For example the mapster bug reported in this thread (case sensitive keys, post #3) could be fixed by either 1) extending the "if" statement checking the keys plus modding sort_sounds' case statement - a "hack" fix, or 2) after looking at other code discover I just need to add Btolower() to the bit that reads the key in the first place (a better way), or 3) do as (2) but also add Btolower to sort_sounds so that if the function is ever called from somewhere else in the future then the same bug will not return and then go on a search for any other potential case-sensitive issues in mapster - the right way.

Anyhow, the offer is there.

TTFN,
Jon

[Micky C]

There are probably some decent things I can think up if I get a bit of time.

However notes that new features might not necessarily have to be done in the source code. Mapster has its own scripting language which has already been used to pull off some pretty neat features available to the end-user and included with the program.

[The Mechanic]

Micky C, on 16 August 2015 - 03:44 AM, said:

However notes that new features might not necessarily have to be done in the source code. Mapster has its own scripting language which has already been used to pull off some pretty neat features available to the end-user and included with the program.

Absolutely, and the scripting language is on my list of things to get round to playing with. That's why I'm initially just thinking of "polishing/tweaking/fixing".

So far I've implemented:
1) When entering a HEX number (for example sprite cstat flags), holding down the ALT key allows you to type in the bit number to be toggled instead of the actual value. Hey, I'm an old git, late at night working out a hex value after toggling bit 11 doesn't come easy
2) After testing a map return back to editing mode straight away - one line of code, but saving me a fortune in the swear box
3) Fix aligning of wall textures (1/2 done)
4) Fix case-sensitive keypresses in mapster (where relevent)
5) PRESSED_KEY(s) macro defined in two places, "eitherAlt" in three places. Now in one place, having the side effect that they can be used in build.c when necessary.

Todo:
1) (TROR) Ctrl-j does not work right and could be fully automated e.g. in 2d mode you get the auto version, whilst in side view mode you still get the current (more flexible) three questions. (Takes a bit of explaining).
2) Add ability to sort sounds by group (similar to the way textures/sprites can be sorted by groups).
3) When showing the save, save as, new etc message (e.g. after pressing esc) then if any key(s) are pressed that this message does NOT use then quit the message, go back to editor and action on those keys !

None of this is ground breaking, todo(2) is probably the only one that isn't very basic, yet even there I'd hope to be able to utilise a lot of existing code (e.g. reading config file). As for todo (3), I might leave that one as a personal fix - I have major issues switching between using two machines that cause the esc key to get pressed inadvertantly - a mix of user error and my setup, but it's been driving me mad.

Also add documentation. I'm NOT proposing a major walk through the code adding comments. Rather, when I go through the code and work out what something is doing, simply document it e.g. as Doxygen comments.

There are new features I'd like, for example auto-generate staircases as sectors, or as collections of sprites, straight staircase or multi-story spiral, that kind of thing, which I'm hoping will be doable via scripting. Indeed, I'd go as far as saying that new features should be via scripts (=plugins) and if necessary (and feasible) the script language itself should be expanded to enable the function to be implemented. I use a number of programs that allow plugins and it's definately the way to go, more flexible and opens up adding of features to people that don't necessarily code.

TTFN,
Jon

[Micky C]

I believe the sprite staircase has already been done in a.m32. I used the spiral sprite staircase effect in he AMC TC which was awesome. IIRC there's also a version for straight stairs. Nothing for sectors though, which is a shame.

Here's some suggestions.
1. There's a wall-splitting tool that inserts points at cross sections between existing walls and a new wall being drawn when you hit enter. It would be cool if it inserted walls between these points as well.
2. A way to delete wall points without dragging! This has been long overdue in mapster.

Speaking of sector construction, there's all sorts of cool construction tools in another, abandoned editor called LEBuild. If some of those could be added to mapster somehow, that'd be fantastic.

[Mark]

IIRC sector based stair creation was part of the map editor for Shadow Warrior.

[DavoX]

Hello man. First of all, thanks for volunteering for this!

Here's some things Id like:

1) This could be hard work but here goes: When you select a couple sectors with ctrl and then rotate them slowly, they lose the original shape and end up all skewed up. Is there any way to improve that?

2) as micky said, there's a tool that cuts lines. It works by drawing a white line over an existing red wall and pressing enter, it will cut any red lines by inserting a dot in the intersecting spot. Now I belive this tool shouldnt join the dots. I believe itd be better if just drawing a white line over many dots would join them.

3) the editor keeps track of every thing you do under revisions, this is to be able to undo changes. The problems is that for example, if I want to retexture an entire room by keeping the enter key pressed while i aim at all the walls, mapster will create a crapload of new revisions for as long as I keep pressed the enter key. Is there a way for mapster to check if any changes have been made at all and avoid creating a new revision if no changes were made?

Thats all for now

[The Mechanic]

Micky C, on 16 August 2015 - 05:02 AM, said:

I believe the sprite staircase has already been done in a.m32. I used the spiral sprite staircase effect in he AMC TC which was awesome. IIRC there's also a version for straight stairs. Nothing for sectors though, which is a shame.

I've had a quick squint at a.m32 and can't find stairs. Anyhow, perhaps not so much thinking of stairs as much as a duplicate selected sprites and move the copy up/x/y, repeat multiple times, movement based on the largest sprite size in the appropriate direction. Could be a staircase, could be a ladder, or a bridge, all sorts. Now, this to me seems like a tweak to the current [INS] button functionality so may be easier to do as code and not a script ? Not sure what would happen / can be done should one of the copies end up in a different sector.

Micky C, on 16 August 2015 - 05:02 AM, said:

1. There's a wall-splitting tool that inserts points at cross sections between existing walls and a new wall being drawn when you hit enter. It would be cool if it inserted walls between these points as well.
2. A way to delete wall points without dragging! This has been long overdue in mapster.

Now why didn't I think of (2) !! Yes, that does need doing. If vertex only connects to two lines then combine it with nearest vertex. Need to check that vertex isn't part of a triangular sector as that would complcate it ?

Micky C, on 16 August 2015 - 05:02 AM, said:

Speaking of sector construction, there's all sorts of cool construction tools in another, abandoned editor called LEBuild. If some of those could be added to mapster somehow, that'd be fantastic.

I did get as far as looking at LEBuild's website but when I noticed it hadn't updated since 2008 I didn't look any further.

DavoX, on 16 August 2015 - 07:04 AM, said:

Hello man. First of all, thanks for volunteering for this!

Here's some things Id like:

1) This could be hard work but here goes: When you select a couple sectors with ctrl and then rotate them slowly, they lose the original shape and end up all skewed up. Is there any way to improve that?

2) as micky said, there's a tool that cuts lines. It works by drawing a white line over an existing red wall and pressing enter, it will cut any red lines by inserting a dot in the intersecting spot. Now I belive this tool shouldnt join the dots. I believe itd be better if just drawing a white line over many dots would join them.

3) the editor keeps track of every thing you do under revisions, this is to be able to undo changes. The problems is that for example, if I want to retexture an entire room by keeping the enter key pressed while i aim at all the walls, mapster will create a crapload of new revisions for as long as I keep pressed the enter key. Is there a way for mapster to check if any changes have been made at all and avoid creating a new revision if no changes were made?

Starting with (3), not creating a restore point if the same operation on the same element is being performed sounds feasible - I need to do a bit more learning on how mapster works first. This might be leveraged by (1), which I think needs take save a copy of the sector's data the first time the rotate is done and then do subsequent calculations based on the saved copy - the skewing sounds like rounding errors accumulating.

As for (2), which is Mick C's point (1), I'm not familiar with this feature. Can you point me at a description ?

TTFN,
Jon

[oasiz]

I would love a way to copy height/slope values quicker between sectors, say another tab+something combo that copies such parameters.
Not sure if this exists but mass applying a texture without shade + pal changes would be cool (sort of opposite from shift + tab).

And other quick things are stuff like auto-gradient for shading/stairs like doombuilder does.

[Hendricks266]

The Mechanic, on 16 August 2015 - 11:43 AM, said:

Now why didn't I think of (2) !! Yes, that does need doing.

This has been requested and denied before. When you delete a vertex, you have to choose which of the two walls it joins to keep, and which to delete, and drag the vertex into one of two adjacent vertices to accomplish this.

[The Mechanic]

Hendricks266, on 16 August 2015 - 12:16 PM, said:

This has been requested and denied before. When you delete a vertex, you have to choose which of the two walls it joins to keep, and which to delete, and drag the vertex into one of two adjacent vertices to accomplish this.

I didn't know it had been requested and it also never occured to me before. Thing is though, having thought about it some, when I delete a vertex with only two walls I'm not sure I ever care which of the two walls is deleted, I just drag the vertex to the nearest or at least most convenient of it's two neighbours. When neighbouring vertexes are on the current grid and are within the current viewport then dragging the point is no major hardship. However, dragging to delete is a bit more difficult if they aren't on the grid or outside the viewport and particularly difficult when the grid is off - typically when using super thin sectors in effects or adjusting minor details.

Anyhow, I'm not proposing to try and impose mods on the official mapster. Work that went into the official Mapster would need to be agreed mods.

TTFN,
Jon

[DavoX]

I Believe we can do without deleting a vertex on a triangular sector or a vertex that joins more than 2 walls. I believe the simple point in a simple wall would suffice!


Regarding the cutting tool, here goes:

1)Load any map, so that you have some sectors made.

2) draw a white line with SPACE as if you were going to draw a new sector

3) with the white line go over some walls, any walls, and press enter.

When you press enter the white line will add a vertex at the intersecting point of the white line and the already made walls. As if you cut it. But not really, since it only adds vertexes, it doesnt divide a sector, only walls. Maybe that's what micky wants, for it to divide sectors by drawing a dividing red line too.


This has bugs though. Sometimes if the wall is diagonal, it creates very close vertexes that are almost imperceptible, you have to move them around to check if the tool made one or two vertexes.

[The Mechanic]

DavoX, on 16 August 2015 - 02:27 PM, said:

1)Load any map, so that you have some sectors made.

2) draw a white line with SPACE as if you were going to draw a new sector

3) with the white line go over some walls, any walls, and press enter.

Took me a while to figure that out - I interpreted both yours and Micky's description as drawing over an existing wall as in right over and along an existing wall (which mapster quite rightly doesn't allow) but now it's clicked - I may be slow but I get there in the end

Anyhow, I see what you mean - you can draw a white line that crossed over a sector's red walls and cause those walls to be split. Didn't know you could do that ! As I've not used it before, I need to mull this over. However, it does raise the question of what would you do in the attached examples ? OK, I could kinda guess with first two pix, but what about the last two ? By adding only vertices it does avoid an aweful lot of potential complication.

Now, as I see it, the prob with only vertices being generated comes in joining them up - pound to a penny in reality the added vertcies will be off-grid and fiddly to connect up. Perhaps making the latter easier is the real solution e.g. a key press (alt, ctrl, whatever) that whilst it is pressed ignores snap to grid and instead snaps to nearest vertex ? That'd make joining the dots / splitting sectors a doddle and also prove useful in general editing.

TTFN,
Jon

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[Micky C]

Quote

I did get as far as looking at LEBuild's website but when I noticed it hadn't updated since 2008 I didn't look any further.

Exactly! Nobody ever really uses LEBuild which is why it's a shame some of its more distinguished features like the sector generation aren't in mapster. There have been times when mappers such as myself load up LEBuild briefly specifically for a quick use of one of its features. However if you've got TROR in the map then LEBuild doesn't support it.

Quote

This has been requested and denied before. When you delete a vertex, you have to choose which of the two walls it joins to keep, and which to delete, and drag the vertex into one of two adjacent vertices to accomplish this.

As the Mechanic said, 99% of the time we never care which wall gets deleted. And in any case, this wouldn't replace the vertex-dragging feature, merely provide an additional option which would be useful for weird, off-grid or small constructions. Mappers can still use the original if they'd like.

Quote

And other quick things are stuff like auto-gradient for shading/stairs like doombuilder does.

There's already a mapster script that does fantastic automatic shading based on slopes and angles, however it doesn't quite work at the moment. If anyone had the time to step up and fix it, that'd be fantastic!

Quote

I've had a quick squint at a.m32 and can't find stairs. Anyhow, perhaps not so much thinking of stairs as much as a duplicate selected sprites and move the copy up/x/y, repeat multiple times, movement based on the largest sprite size in the appropriate direction. Could be a staircase, could be a ladder, or a bridge, all sorts. Now, this to me seems like a tweak to the current [INS] button functionality so may be easier to do as code and not a script ? Not sure what would happen / can be done should one of the copies end up in a different sector.

Check this out! http://wiki.eduke32....y_manipulations
What really blew my mind is that it actually shows you a preview of how the pasted sprites are going to look, which means you can tweak the parameters in real time to get what you want
Perhaps whatever you're thinking can be some kind of modification of this script?

It allowed me to make this spiral staircase through the middle of this tall building:

Quote

When you press enter the white line will add a vertex at the intersecting point of the white line and the already made walls. As if you cut it. But not really, since it only adds vertexes, it doesnt divide a sector, only walls. Maybe that's what micky wants, for it to divide sectors by drawing a dividing red line too.

Yeah that's what I want. Originally, Helixhorned coded this in at my request, and he was meant to evolve it into a sector-slicing tool by drawing the walls. Only he never got that far, and there was that bug with the 2 vertexes created very close together.
Edit: Just saw the latest post. I think the only real check would be to not draw walls through void space, and only if the line fully intersects between walls (without stopping in the middle of a sector). Not sure how easy/hard that'd be to code up though, so maybe the easier off-grid sector joining might be the way to go.

[DavoX]

There is an already "SNAP to closest vertex" feature. If you make the grid bigger it will be easier to snap to a close vertex.

[Micky C]

True, but it's not perfect. It's still difficult if the vertex you're interested in is close to a grid point.

[The Mechanic]

Micky C, on 16 August 2015 - 03:38 PM, said:

Check this out! http://wiki.eduke32....y_manipulations
What really blew my mind is that it actually shows you a preview of how the pasted sprites are going to look, which means you can tweak the parameters in real time to get what you want

I'd totally forgotten about that map ! Yes, that's pretty much what I was thinking. Love to do that as sectors - perhaps when I get to do some scripts the first thing to try is take a rectangular sector and split it into stairs in a straight line.

Ruddy-'ell, yes that sprite preview is awesome!!

Micky C, on 16 August 2015 - 03:38 PM, said:

It allowed me to make this spiral staircase through the middle of this tall building:

Holy crap ! My head hurts just looking at that !

Micky C, on 16 August 2015 - 03:38 PM, said:

Yeah that's what I want. Originally, Helixhorned coded this in at my request, and he was meant to evolve it into a sector-slicing tool by drawing the walls. Only he never got that far, and there was that bug with the 2 vertexes created very close together.
Edit: Just saw the latest post. I think the only real check would be to not draw walls through void space, and only if the line fully intersects between walls (without stopping in the middle of a sector). Not sure how easy/hard that'd be to code up though, so maybe the easier off-grid sector joining might be the way to go.

The problem with code is it is dumb. Very dumb. I mean stupid beyond reason. It does exactly what, and only what, you tell it. That means you have to tell it everything as if it were a water-tight legal document. So, you'd still need to add tons of code to manage those different use cases and I can quite understand Helixhorned not progressing this.

For anyone not convinced by my pleading for a delete vertex, I've attached an example map plus two screen shots. I've pointed to a naughty little vertex that I want rid of. What's the quickest way to delete this point - and how would that compare with a nice little DEL button ? Its a real example map in that there is a thin sector to stop the wall texture from squishing during the effect. Indeed, in this example the DEL button would have an advantage over dragging a point as the wall texture would not be affected (though I appreciate you can turn of adjust-texture-squish-during-sizing).

DavoX, on 16 August 2015 - 03:52 PM, said:

There is an already "SNAP to closest vertex" feature.

What key press is that ? I can't seem to find it on the wiki or infosuite and it will be very useful.

TTFN,
Jon

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  Number of downloads: 131

[DavoX]

The Mechanic, on 17 August 2015 - 01:52 AM, said:

What key press is that ? I can't seem to find it on the wiki or infosuite and it will be very useful.

TTFN,
Jon

There isn't a key press for it. It automatically finds the nearest vertex as long as you aren't near a grid point.

[The Mechanic]

DavoX, on 17 August 2015 - 09:11 AM, said:

There isn't a key press for it. It automatically finds the nearest vertex as long as you aren't near a grid point.

Most of the time, yes. But in my example map, there are vertices close together, one on grid, one off, so it gets slightly tricky. But it is somewhat of a corner case (no pun inteneded!) and is probably a moot point in the context of the line splitting / screate sectors debate as in most instances wiring up the created vertices manually is usually not to difficult.

TTFN,
Jon

[DavoX]

Any chance pressing C with something else would start drawing a circle but not from a wall? This is to make perfect circles faster.

[The Mechanic]

DavoX, on 17 August 2015 - 03:32 PM, said:

Any chance pressing C with something else would start drawing a circle but not from a wall? This is to make perfect circles faster.

Dare say a script file could do this.

What we do need is a tracking system for feature requests.

I'm guessing the lack of response from the developers, be that either "please do join us Jon, we were just hesitent because, like, we're not worthy" , or "thankyou for your enquiry and enclosing your CV., however we do not have any vacencies at this time but have put your CV in our filing system [read: bin] for future reference" means it's the latter.

Lots of scripting potential though.

TTFN,
Jon

[Paul B]

The Mechanic, on 18 August 2015 - 10:08 AM, said:

Dare say a script file could do this.

What we do need is a tracking system for feature requests.

I'm guessing the lack of response from the developers, be that either "please do join us Jon, we were just hesitent because, like, we're not worthy" , or "thankyou for your enquiry and enclosing your CV., however we do not have any vacencies at this time but have put your CV in our filing system [read: bin] for future reference" means it's the latter.

Lots of scripting potential though.

TTFN,
Jon

Hey don't pack it in just yet. I'm sure someone will get back to you.

[Mark]

Yeah, if it takes scripting to keep from stepping on anyone's toes go for it.

[TerminX]

The Mechanic, on 18 August 2015 - 10:08 AM, said:

Dare say a script file could do this.

What we do need is a tracking system for feature requests.

I'm guessing the lack of response from the developers, be that either "please do join us Jon, we were just hesitent because, like, we're not worthy" , or "thankyou for your enquiry and enclosing your CV., however we do not have any vacencies at this time but have put your CV in our filing system [read: bin] for future reference" means it's the latter.

Lots of scripting potential though.

TTFN,
Jon

Nah, not at all. We're just busy with a bunch of different things. We have Hail To The King Collection coming out soon and that whole new Build game we're doing with the Bombshell IP for 3DR. You're more than welcome to add cool features and submit them as patches. We've never turned down a useful contribution!

If you decide to add a key to delete a vertex, I suggest limiting it to situations where the angle between the previous wall's vertices and next wall's vertices are the same, e.g. only being able to delete the center point in a set of 3 points along a straight wall.

It looks like you came to about the same conclusion as I did regarding having a tool that automatically draws walls across sectors instead of just inserting the wall points. I was asked about it several times and have so far refused to even attempt coding it because I know there are going to be a bunch of cases where something like that completely fucks up a map.

[The Mechanic]

TerminX, on 18 August 2015 - 12:43 PM, said:

Nah, not at all. We're just busy with a bunch of different things. We have Hail To The King Collection coming out soon and that whole new Build game we're doing with the Bombshell IP for 3DR. You're more than welcome to add cool features and submit them as patches. We've never turned down a useful contribution!

TBH I was mainly concerned with the lack of yay or nay - no problem with either, just being in limbo was awkward.

At this point in time, my thoughts were in mopping up any Mapster bugs or tweaks of existing features - main developers are then freed form these little jobs whilst the same jobs are helping me to get into the way the code works. However I do feel these need to be co-ordinated fixes, and I'm guessing done one at a time for feeding into subversion ?

By default, new features oughta be via script files if possible, and if not possible then maybe I'll have sussed enough or the Mapster code to add what might be needed to make the new feature scriptable.

TerminX, on 18 August 2015 - 12:43 PM, said:

If you decide to add a key to delete a vertex, I suggest limiting it to situations where the angle between the previous wall's vertices and next wall's vertices are the same, e.g. only being able to delete the center point in a set of 3 points along a straight wall.

Hmm.. why the restriction ? I was thinking of choosing the nearest vertex from the attached two walls, then (hopefully) being able to hijack an existing routine that would have been called if the user had dragged the point. (I've not looked yet, so I may be in for a shock I guess). Hell, maybe check that the vertex isn't part of a 3-vertex sector in which case warn the user that they are a bit of a muppet.

TerminX, on 18 August 2015 - 12:43 PM, said:

It looks like you came to about the same conclusion as I did regarding having a tool that automatically draws walls across sectors instead of just inserting the wall points. I was asked about it several times and have so far refused to even attempt coding it because I know there are going to be a bunch of cases where something like that completely fucks up a map.

Indeed. And it probably would take nearly as much code to trap the various conditions as it would to deal with them and I'm certainly not confident that I wouldn't overlook a case. It would be a nice feature for sure, but damn hard me thinks.

TTFN,
Jon

[PsychoGoatee]

Anybody working on mapster, I have no idea what code and whatnot looks like, but if you notice anything weird that might make alt+S not work, fixing that would be great. Doesn't work for me in any version of mapster. On windows 7. I made a topic about it, but it doesn't look like it'll get fixed, so just throwing it out there one more time in case another set of eyes sees something in there.

Alt+S and Alt+T in 2D mode, fixing both of those would be good. Mechanic you posted in that topic and mentioned you intermittently had these issues on windows 7, but not windows 8. For me it's all the time though. No idea if that's something traceable or fixable in mapster.

[Mark]

Its more an issue of the " fixer " not being able to reproduce the problem on their computer in order to figure out a fix. If it was a widespread problem it might have gotten more attention. But as isolated as it is I'm guessing its not a high priority. But I know it is for you.

[PsychoGoatee]

Mark., on 18 August 2015 - 02:52 PM, said:

Its more an issue of the " fixer " not being able to reproduce the problem on their computer in order to figure out a fix. If it was a widespread problem it might have gotten more attention. But as isolated as it is I'm guessing its not a high priority. But I know it is for you.

In this case the fixer did reproduce the problem, at least if we're talking about The Mechanic.

[Mark]

OK. I must have missed that part of the post.

[The Mechanic]

PsychoGoatee. said:

Anybody working on mapster, I have no idea what code and whatnot looks like, but if you notice anything weird that might make alt+S not work, fixing that would be great. Doesn't work for me in any version of mapster

Alt-S is intermittent for me on my Win7 laptop, but it is very occasional in as much as works for ages, then suddenly stops working. Then continues to not work until I "do something" which I haven't sussed where-upon it works again. Similarly with right-Alt.

What I have determined is that Alt-H, Alt-T work even when Alt-S is busted, during which time the 'S' key also works (e.g. insert sprite). So, during the problem, Mapster can still read the Alt key and the 'S' key. But not Alt-S. I did look at the code and I have to be honest I can't see any way for Mapster to be able to miss 'Alt-S' whilst seeing 'Alt' and 'S' for other operations.

        if (eitherALT && keystatus[0x1f]) //ALT-S
        {
            .. do all that sector shit
        }
        else if (keystatus[0x1f])  //S
        {
            ... do all that sprite shit
        }

So, if your 'S' key works and 'alt' works with other commands then I suspect it's windows related rather than the core mapster stuff. I have noticed that alt-s makws a Windows "bong" noise with alt-S.

Note in the code the condition is 'eitherAlt', have you tried using right-alt instead of left-Alt (I didn't know that one til I saw the code!).

I did think about redefining keys, however if you can insert sprite then the S key obviously works. That just leaves the alt key, try adding the following towards the bottom of mapster32.cfg:

remap = 25-38

This uses the 'K' key to perform the ALT key's function. Not the ideal choice or remapping I grant you, but consider this a test (there really arent that many spare keys left!). If this woks, try :

remap = 33-38

On my keyboard this remaps the '\' key to ALT, a much better choice on my Win7 laptop as the two keys are physically close to each other, but this may or may not be the same on your keyboard. Note: the keyboard layout described in the cfg file says that the '\' key is 2B, well on my keyboard it seems to be 33 ! Different keyboard layout perhaps.

I still suspect you have something on your machine interfering with things, but if it's any consolation I think that's what's happening on my machine too and I'm damned if I can find a culprit.

TTFN,
Jon

[Edit] Mods - maybe it would be worthwhile to wave your magic wand and move these few posts to the PsychoGoatee's original problem post ? It only occured to me after posting, D'Oh!

[DavoX]

Could it be the language swtiching from one to another in windows? I know Alt GR doesn't work when my keyboard is set to spanish.