I imagine George's decision to switch to dynamic lighting was a result of Shadow Warrior's relative failure, being left in the dust competing with games like Quake II despite being a much better game. Duke managed to take on Quake 1, but there was a lot of luck involved with that. Tech was evolving at an extremely rapid pace at that time compared to today, and a year was all it took to be left behind.
And in the end, one of the things DNF 2001 was most harshly judged for was it's dated graphics, kinda proving George right in a way.
Never Forgotten, on 05 March 2018 - 09:23 PM, said:
Here's what I think needs to happen. 3D Realms needs to talk to Gearbox, and see if they can work together and finish the game, then release it. They could promote it like In Maiden, as a throwback game... Or, they could overhaul it and redo the game, without cutting anything, with a modern engine to make it look like say... Doom 2016.
If they worked with a good team to finish it up and sold it I'd buy it.
"Remaking" it would probably be highly difficult, in addition to prohibitively expensive; changing graphics really do affect gameplay and a number of things that worked with the old graphics would probably need to be scrapped as a result.
This post has been edited by necroslut: 05 March 2018 - 11:16 PM
Commando Nukem, on 05 March 2018 - 07:22 PM, said:
With respect, I'd say that it is you that is speculating.
Why am I speculating? Because I'm assuming that a version of the game that was never finished and prepared for release is unfinished and not ready for release? I think you don't understand what I said: I'm not arguing about the game's quality (I don't know about that and frankly after this much bs with DNF I don't even care anymore), I'm arguing about the fact that it is unfinished. Again if you look at DNF 2011 according to Pitchford that game was around 90% complete too when 3DR shut down... yet it took them 2 years to settle everything and release a game that they could consider finished.
Anyway I think George and co. were idiots for abandoning this version of the game too so on that one we agree. UE1 was not top of the line at that time but good artists could still produce amazing looking games with it. For example there's Clive Barker's Undying from 2001, one of the best FPS titles from the early 2000s and it looked great when it came out.
This post has been edited by Zaxx: 06 March 2018 - 12:18 AM
Why am I speculating? Because I'm assuming that a version of the game that was never finished and prepared for release is unfinished and not ready for release? I think you don't understand what I said: I'm not arguing about the game's quality
Interesting opinions you have. Yet you originally literally said that it IS, something..
Zaxx, on 05 March 2018 - 06:15 PM, said:
Well it stood the test of time so much that it was scrapped and never finished. It would be awesome to see this version of the game as a curiosity but rest assured that as a video games it's unfinished and sucks ass.
Yet you originally literally said that it IS, something..
Read the post again and especially in context. Right in the next sentence I explained what I meant without irony:
Quote
I think you don't understand what I said: I'm not arguing about the game's quality (I don't know about that and frankly after this much bs with DNF I don't even care anymore), I'm arguing about the fact that it is unfinished.
What is it that you don't understand? How could I argue about the quality of a game that does not even exist as a finished product? I'm sure that DNF 2001 would have had a chance to be among the greats if it was actually finished but even stuff like Half-Life would suck ass if Valve skipped the polishing stages and released it at the point where it was only 90% ready. As someone in this thread has already said that last 10% is what makes or breaks a great game.
Unfinished games suck because they are unfinished, that's a fact and that has nothing to do with how the game would have turned out in a parallel dimension where it was actually finished.
This post has been edited by Zaxx: 06 March 2018 - 04:46 AM
Never Forgotten, on 05 March 2018 - 10:56 PM, said:
What I'm saying is make the game as it was, but with an updated engine. Even if it looks dated when it's released, at least it will be able to complete... I know what you said was a joke, but that was a reply to those who think of that seriously.
As we all know, a new engine is what killed the game. If it’s almost complete with a given engine, let it keep that engine. Unreal 1 still runs quite well on modern computers. The recent classic shooter resurgence shows that many people don’t care about graphics.
Read the post again and especially in context. Right in the next sentence I explained what I meant without irony:
What is it that you don't understand? How could I argue about the quality of a game that does not even exist as a finished product? I'm sure that DNF 2001 would have had a chance to be among the greats if it was actually finished but even stuff like Half-Life would suck ass if Valve skipped the polishing stages and released it at the point where it was only 90% ready. As someone in this thread has already said that last 10% is what makes or breaks a great game.
Unfinished games suck because they are unfinished, that's a fact and that has nothing to do with how the game would have turned out in a parallel dimension where it was actually finished.
You're now re-arranging your own words. You said it sucks ass.
Fred has said that it is playable and fun. I take Fred's word for it because at core he just a really passionate Duke fan like us, except he has the builds. And that's why he also ready to assemble a team and get the 01 version + mod tools out the door all for free, because of what it means to fans. And once again, Wieder has said how much progress the game had gotten already in 2003 before the switch. So I don't think you're correct in here that it is what you implied ie. "extremely buggy and un-playable and whatever..sucks ass".
This post has been edited by spessu_sb: 06 March 2018 - 05:13 AM
If that's what you want to think then that's where we'll leave it. If you think you know my opinion better than I do then that's your problem, not mine and chances are I won't be able to convince you.
Quote
Fred has said that it is playable and fun. I take Fred's word for it because at core he just a really passionate Duke fan like us
And that's exactly why I don't take Fred's word for it (and also because based on their past work I don't think highly of 3Danish Realms overall when it comes to judging a game's quality but that's my opinion).
Anyway I just wanted to say something about how people should hold their horses because I know the Duke community: we're desperate, we get excited for everything. Once it was DNF 2011, now it's an unfinished game and we'd like to reach out to that one thing that finally redeems this franchise but you know, that will happen when a new, finished game comes out that did not spend more than a decade in development hell. The idea of DNF's greatness is really something we should just let go at this point and even if the last build of DNF 2001 eventually sees the light of day we should just think of it as what it is: a fascinating look into a great game that could have existed but never truly did. Will it suck as a video game though? Of course it will even if it's playable and if there is fun to be had while playing it because it's unfinished, that's why we shouldn't look at it as a video game. DNF 2011 is playable too and it's fun in a lot of places but at the end of the day it's still a piece of mediocre junk that was stitched together as a last resort... and that's the finished product.
Wanna play that one thing that may redeem Duke? Play Ion Maiden.
This post has been edited by Zaxx: 06 March 2018 - 06:33 AM
Yeah people spend more time discussing what-ifs and maybes rather than engaging with what we have, by checking out usermaps/mods and maybe even taking a crack at making one themselves. I mean christ, when WT went off Steam and a Gearbox rep said it was literally nothing, just some licensing shit, people still spent time arguing that it was some kind of big secret update that would redeem the whole thing. It's not helped by the people in charge though, since Pitchford is gonna do what he does and John St John hyping people up for....a boatcruise, of all things, but still.
This post has been edited by Jblade: 06 March 2018 - 06:33 AM
What, you're not excited for a boatcruise that is hosted by this elderly man who looks like he was drinking heavily for 5 nights straight before taking this pic?
Seriously, this photo should be a meme. Hail to the Kayak King, baby!
This post has been edited by Zaxx: 06 March 2018 - 06:38 AM
Commando Nukem, on 06 March 2018 - 07:42 AM, said:
Let's not shit on Jon St John, eh? Guy has been a big time ambassador for the Duke character and he stays in actual one-on-one contact with his fans.
I'm not shitting on him, I love the man's work but it was so... embarrassing to see that he hyped up this big time announcement and then it was just a convention on some cruise ship.
And really: would you use that photo for advertisement? When I saw it I seriously considered re-installing Photoshop. Just think about the stuff that you could put behind him.... it's glorious!
This post has been edited by Zaxx: 06 March 2018 - 08:13 AM
Just amazing...it's literally everything I've wanted in a Duke Game, and honestly, the feeling I've always got from the beta footage. It's interesting to go back and analyze the footage with that in mind!
It's open world, it's expansive...it would have been just spectacular for me to even see the beta build of this thing.
I've sharpened the image of the console in photoshop, basically some subtitles for dialogue that was most likely to be recorded for the game.
This post has been edited by Duke4Beta: 06 March 2018 - 11:07 AM
The idea of them putting it in a new engine was just so they could release it as a new game. I would prefer the original, untouched but finished one to be released.
Here's the real question, would you accept it if Gearbox let them finish the game, and then sold it for $50? I'd still pay for it...
Never Forgotten, on 06 March 2018 - 12:08 PM, said:
Here's the real question, would you accept it if Gearbox let them finish the game, and then sold it for $50? I'd still pay for it...
If 3D realms was the publisher: yes. If Gearbox was the publisher: no. Honestly Randy's idea of publishing a DNF Collection seems idiotic to me since the people who would be interested in that release already have DNF. Chances are the target audience is a bunch of guys like me who pre-ordered the shit out of that game and got burned by it so a Collection would be just another way for Gearbox to alienate Duke fans some more. And of course it would cost more than 50 bucks because Randy would say some shit like "Last time the game was published by 2K, we barely made any money on that release so now it's 80 bucks because it's a Collection, guys, we love ya, we're entertainers, buy our snake oil, oh boy, we love to entertain you dumb fucks!"
This post has been edited by Zaxx: 06 March 2018 - 12:42 PM
I don't want them to finish it. I don't want them to touch it. At this point, to me, it is a matter of game development history. I'm talking Lameduke, or the Doom alpha's. It's a time capsule of what the game was like at that time. To finish that last ten percent would require having people who were not intimately familiar with the game in 2001 to step in and try to fill in the holes. That almost never works out because the intentions of the level designers, programmers, etc of the time are difficult to understand. I wouldn't want Gearbox, or 3D Realms, or Voidpoint, or anyone to try and step in and trowl in the holes. The only thing I would want is for a "fix" to make it run on modern systems to come out. I wouldn't want them to redo the voice acting, or up-rez textures, or put the stuff on a new engine (which is not a small feat, Never Forgotten.)
There is no way in Hell that you could sell a 17 year old game for 50 bucks. It should be released more-or-less as is to the public. Specifically for the lot of us that waited the entire run of DNF's dev cycle and wanted that game more than anything else. I don't want any modern developers to touch it. Not Randy, not Fred, not TerminX or anyone who might be called in. I'm not saying anything bad about any of them either. I'm stressing my point. It wouldn't matter. Unless you could get the original DNF developers from 2001 to get back together for a year and actually finish what they started, there is no way in Hell... And there is no way in Hell that would happen, anyway.
It's the Mona Lisa of video games to me. So leave it. Graphic glitches, dev maps, bugs, crashes, and all. Don't lay a fucking finger on it.
This post has been edited by Commando Nukem: 06 March 2018 - 12:44 PM
Commando Nukem, on 06 March 2018 - 12:42 PM, said:
There is no way in Hell that you could sell a 17 year old game for 50 bucks.
I beg to differ. Don't underestimate what HD resolutions and some spit and polish could do to a game that is supposed to look old. If Night Dive could sell Turok for 20 bucks I don't see why DNF 2001 couldn't go for at least 35-40. Let's say the game is not terrible but actually something that would have been a classic around 2001-2002: people still play titles like Deus Ex, Half-Life or Unreal so if you take the current state of DNF 2001, finish it up competently, update some of its presentation (nothing truly substantial, let's say better shading, high quality shadows and lighting effects, a bit of modern post-processing stuff, HD menus and HUD, you know, kinda like Turok Remastered) and it feels good to play, it would have been game of the year back in the day. You can absolutely sell that stuff and there is nothing that is stopping you from adding the original unfinished version as an extra next to your remaster of a game that never had an original version.
This post has been edited by Zaxx: 06 March 2018 - 01:14 PM
Commando Nukem, on 06 March 2018 - 12:42 PM, said:
No.
I don't want them to finish it. I don't want them to touch it. At this point, to me, it is a matter of game development history. I'm talking Lameduke, or the Doom alpha's. It's a time capsule of what the game was like at that time. To finish that last ten percent would require having people who were not intimately familiar with the game in 2001 to step in and try to fill in the holes. That almost never works out because the intentions of the level designers, programmers, etc of the time are difficult to understand. I wouldn't want Gearbox, or 3D Realms, or Voidpoint, or anyone to try and step in and trowl in the holes. The only thing I would want is for a "fix" to make it run on modern systems to come out. I wouldn't want them to redo the voice acting, or up-rez textures, or put the stuff on a new engine (which is not a small feat, Never Forgotten.)
There is no way in Hell that you could sell a 17 year old game for 50 bucks. It should be released more-or-less as is to the public. Specifically for the lot of us that waited the entire run of DNF's dev cycle and wanted that game more than anything else. I don't want any modern developers to touch it. Not Randy, not Fred, not TerminX or anyone who might be called in. I'm not saying anything bad about any of them either. I'm stressing my point. It wouldn't matter. Unless you could get the original DNF developers from 2001 to get back together for a year and actually finish what they started, there is no way in Hell... And there is no way in Hell that would happen, anyway.
It's the Mona Lisa of video games to me. So leave it. Graphic glitches, dev maps, bugs, crashes, and all. Don't lay a fucking finger on it.
I feel the same way that it really shouldn't be poked after this long of time and especially not indeed by non-original devs. It is currently the version that we were showed back then and adding any additional material to it could change the direction very easily. Make it completely not what it originally was about.
Do any possible stability optimizations for modern os' and then release it. Any new ideas you have, use them for a brand new Duke game and not the one that has been waited for the longest time and which once already was screwed up due to too many modernizations and so (DNF2011).
Commando Nukem, on 06 March 2018 - 12:42 PM, said:
snip
I agree to an extent.
Besides making the whole thing actually work, I'd like some attempt to make accessing everything user-friendly.
If levels aren't connected I'd like some text to pop up saying "This is where the level ends; the next level is e2m4" and you can bring up a menu to choose what level you want to try next or text that says "you are suppose to find a blue key to open this door however it is not in the level".
If there's a crap ton of just test levels (which there likely are) where its just a shrink ray and a bunch of tiny vents, that should be its own category of levels.
I remember the HL2 leak was somewhat like this but obviously it wasn't intended for public release at all.
This post has been edited by HulkNukem: 06 March 2018 - 02:45 PM
I remember the HL2 leak was somewhat like this but obviously it wasn't intended for public release at all.
It still amazes me how well HL2 turned out at the end. They changed the whole freakin' game after the leak and it's just perfection, it's so intelligently designed that it really is a testament to just how well fully linear level design can work if it's done well. It's cool that Steam became so successful that it single-handedly put PC gaming back on the map but the lack of new Valve games is a huge loss to gamers.
I beg to differ. Don't underestimate what HD resolutions and some spit and polish could do to a game that is supposed to look old. If Night Dive could sell Turok for 20 bucks I don't see why DNF 2001 couldn't go for at least 35-40. Let's say the game is not terrible but actually something that would have been a classic around 2001-2002: people still play titles like Deus Ex, Half-Life or Unreal so if you take the current state of DNF 2001, finish it up competently, update some of its presentation (nothing truly substantial, let's say better shading, high quality shadows and lighting effects, a bit of modern post-processing stuff, HD menus and HUD, you know, kinda like Turok Remastered) and it feels good to play, it would have been game of the year back in the day. You can absolutely sell that stuff and there is nothing that is stopping you from adding the original unfinished version as an extra next to your remaster of a game that never had an original version.
A few things:
One: Anything Night Dive has done isn't really applicable here. Those are drastically different situations. Night Dive has taken games that were already completely finished, and given them some minor spit and polish and brought them up to working on modern systems without major issues. So, with that said that brings me to my second point.
Two: This is developmental content we're talking about. It's not finished. As Wieder basically indicated up thread, some of the maps were just end-to-end to get the rough outline. Who knows the state of scripting or even geo-detailing. We could be talking about rough boxes with lights and a few text pop ups to tell you "thing happens" "badguy spawns" etc.. You would have to have another team together to come back in to finish those things, and who knows how much is missing there. That's not nearly as simple as people here seem to think. Level design is not just architecture and script. You have to understand the intentions behind those designs. Without the original team in place to actually do the job there's no way to accurately and adequately finish the game as it was intended, and I do not trust TPP, to step in and try to finish the thing properly. They all have different ideas of what Duke is, was, should be.
Three: We, the Duke Nukem Forever community, already paid for a game called Duke Nukem Forever. If you bought the BOS edition, you paid a hundred plus. We waited for this fucking game and suffered through a lot of bullshit. I think it would be pretty god-damn sickening to turn around and sell an earlier version of the same game to that same audience. I could not think of a bigger middle finger to the audience after all this time.
Maybe i'm just turning into a bitter old asshole. The idea of this getting so limp wristedly "finished up" and released after all this time... No.
I can certainly understand people who want DNF 2001 released, I must ask why bother. Sure it would be cool, but how much time would be spent finishing those 10%, then fixing all the bugs, optimization, etc.
Look we already got DNF, with all its faults, but I still played it, finished it, played it again. I think there is no need to release the 2001 version, because part of its charm is the "what could have been", but if someone is willing to put serious time and effort, then go for it. We should focus on new games, I mean Gearbox should, or they could include it as a bonus in the new game they create or some re-release or a remake, because those are always around.
Anyway those are my two cents.
P.S. It appears that Russian show "Star Factory", aired from 2002 till 2011 and is based on a Spanish show not on "The Voice", which started airing in 2011, at least according to Wikipedia. Still a clone, but from a different show, just wanted to point that out.
This post has been edited by Noddy: 06 March 2018 - 08:10 PM
One: Anything Night Dive has done isn't really applicable here. Those are drastically different situations. Night Dive has taken games that were already completely finished, and given them some minor spit and polish and brought them up to working on modern systems without major issues.
Nope, those are reverse engineered ports, the games were reconstructed for Kaiser's KEX Engine. They are not simple port jobs with a bit of spit and polish, they are the original games rebuilt from the ground up.
Commando Nukem, on 06 March 2018 - 07:00 PM, said:
Two: This is developmental content we're talking about. It's not finished. As Wieder basically indicated up thread, some of the maps were just end-to-end to get the rough outline. Who knows the state of scripting or even geo-detailing. We could be talking about rough boxes with lights and a few text pop ups to tell you "thing happens" "badguy spawns" etc.. You would have to have another team together to come back in to finish those things, and who knows how much is missing there. That's not nearly as simple as people here seem to think. Level design is not just architecture and script. You have to understand the intentions behind those designs. Without the original team in place to actually do the job there's no way to accurately and adequately finish the game as it was intended, and I do not trust TPP, to step in and try to finish the thing properly. They all have different ideas of what Duke is, was, should be.
I did not get into the details because it was merely a theory but the way I see it there are two possibilities.
- THE FIRST: 3Danish Realms looks at what they have and they conclude something like this: "It's a mess, it's not coherent, we don't have a game here." If that's the case then I agree with you and they shouldn't bother.
- THE SECOND: Fred and the guys look at what they have and their conclusion is "Hey, we actually have a game here that could be finished without changing the heart and soul of it." In that case finish it if possible.
Now the problem with the second possibility is that we don't really know just how professionally 3D Realms operated back in the day. Is there detailed design documentation? What does the original development team think about the idea of finishing that version? Are they able to reconstruct in detail what the final design was supposed to be? If the answer to all of those questions is a big yes then the game can be finished, it can be "remastered" and it can be released.
And really we don't know much about the state of the game and much about the design. There are some rare cases in gaming history where almost fully finished games were abandoned or when finished games were created without the creator's direct involvement. Remember the original Prince of Persia 2: The Shadow and the Flame? Jordan Mechner did not write a line of code for that game yet it is still a Jordan Mechner game through and through. He wrote a design bible, gave that to the actual development team and they made the game based on that. The fun part? The whole game is in there in detail on paper: http://www.jordanmec...s/pop2bible.pdf
As for almost fully finished games being cancelled: do you remember the WarCraft adventure game that was cancelled in the 90's? Somebody leaked it a while ago and guess what? Apart from a bit of placeholder audio and some seemingly unfinished art here and there it's fully playable, it's fully voice acted, most of the animated cutscenes are there, it looks nice and it's really good:
Why was it cancelled? Because Blizzard did not like the tone of it that much and it's not as good as Monkey Island 3... you know, one of the best adventure games ever created. You can play WarCraft Adventures, I did and had zero issues yet it's a cancelled game.
So I'm not saying they should finish DNF 2001 under any circumstance, I say they should finish it if it can be finished.
This post has been edited by Zaxx: 06 March 2018 - 11:54 PM
While I want this 01 build to finally play it a big part of why I want it is the tools.
DNF itself wasn't as bad as people say, it was just painfully mediocre - but it had good things in it. I think the worst part about it was the level design. I really believe it could've spawned some great mods and maps if the tools were released for it despite the main game being what it was - but we never got those tools.
Fred has already shown this build clearly has the tools, but if gearbox were to publish it they might lock it down like they did with DNF after people discovered the console and shit - fuck that.
UE1 may be old but it's a capable engine, and it would be nice to be able to make something duke related that didn't have the tension of possibly being taken down by gearbox and isn't a duke3d/eduke mod.
I can certainly understand people who want DNF 2001 released, I must ask why bother. Sure it would be cool, but how much time would be spent finishing those 10%, then fixing all the bugs, optimization, etc.
Personally, I want DNF 2001 (as well as DNF 1998 - the last Quake2 build) but the thing is, I don't want it to be finished. I want it to be released as is, for the sake of historical preservation, unless there are showstopping bugs that prevent it from running (i.e. the build requiring a hardware dongle, or dependencies from deprecated libraries that cause it to crash on modern systems), which would defeat the point of preserving it. If it gets "finished" before it gets released, we would never truly know what it was like, what it played like, before that lard-for-brains ordered a restart.
If modders want to start from the existing build and "finish" it, that's a whole other story. They should absolutely feel free to do so.
However, let's put it this way: if an incomplete painting by Leonardo Da Vinci was discovered, nobody would have the right to add things to the canvas and "finish" it. The only acceptable thing to do would be to protect it so that people can look at it and scholars can examine it without it getting destroyed, and if someone wants to "finish" it, he should start from a detailed photograph of the original (a copy) and "finish" it on his PC. But the original should not be touched.
The same is true for the 2001 DNF build.
This post has been edited by Altered Reality: 07 March 2018 - 06:51 AM
Altered Reality, on 07 March 2018 - 06:47 AM, said:
But the original should not be touched.
Phew, thank God that when it comes to software you can make a copy that is fully identical to the original.
I dunno, guys, I think you're taking things a bit too far with this "nobody should finish it" argument... I mean who in their right mind would destroy the current build of the game? It's not a painting where modifying it includes destroying the original work, it's a piece of software that can be copied until eternity.
Personally I value a good gaming experience more than something that only has sentimental value... why can't we have both? And really this "don't touch it" argument has lots of holes in it because all of you end up with saying "but make it run on today's machines". How is making it run on today's hardware not modifying it? "Don't finish it but make it playable!"? Wut? Bullshit, I say!
Edit: Anyway even when it comes to high art there is an important profession out there: conservation / restoration. Restorators work their asses off to restore old art pieces that started to degrade over time and once that's done the pieces are presented as the original work because it is the original work, only restored. I think that DNF 2001 is kind of in the same boat: the unfinished build is not that important, that's just a drectory of data, what is important is the design intention and just what the final product would have looked like. If it's possible to achieve that final product faithfully then I guess that's more important than some piece of software.
This post has been edited by Zaxx: 07 March 2018 - 07:28 AM
Phew, thank God that when it comes to software you can make a copy that is fully identical to the original.
Maybe I wasn't clear enough. I was talking about the hypothesis of having 3DRealms "finish" the 2001 DNF build, release the modified product, but never release the original build.
This post has been edited by Altered Reality: 07 March 2018 - 08:22 AM
As for almost fully finished games being cancelled: do you remember...
Pepperidge Farm remembers Wanton Destruction.
Zaxx, on 06 March 2018 - 11:51 PM, said:
So I'm not saying they should finish DNF 2001 under any circumstance, I say they should finish it if it can be finished.
It can't.
Bloodshot, on 07 March 2018 - 01:09 AM, said:
While I want this 01 build to finally play it a big part of why I want it is the tools.
Altered Reality, on 07 March 2018 - 06:47 AM, said:
I want it to be released as is, for the sake of historical preservation...
If modders want to start from the existing build and "finish" it, that's a whole other story. They should absolutely feel free to do so.
Yarp... my preference would be for it to be released in an almost identical manner as the Duke/SW source code. Touch it as little as possible to get it functional in the window it is released and leave it to the public to take it from there. It would probably need to be under a license where it can't be used for commercial release AT ALL and I'm not sure how much of the source code would be allowed to be included since there would still be some wrangling with Epic over the engine itself.
If 3DR/Gearbox then wanted to go make some definitive version that builds on the foundation and include it in a package or standalone then that's bonus... but the opening salvo would be best as a clean a drop as possible. Including a couple of the various slices since say Oct 2001 is different from June 2002 and Oct 2002 (and give better insight into the evolution).
EDIT: I'm still surprised the other two screenshots haven't been posted yet. Ya'll gettin' lazy!
This post has been edited by SpotsSpot'sSpots: 07 March 2018 - 09:55 AM
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