[OpenMaw]

Toxic34, on 11 March 2018 - 01:20 PM, said:

The Phantom Menace isn't perfect, but it sure as hell isn't disappointing. The only thing that needed to be fixed was the dialogue by giving the script to Lawrence Kasdan for another pass. Everything else was perfectly fine. The political elements are quite necessary, and the Senate scenes are NOT "Galactic C-SPAN." Jar Jar is certainly annoying as hell, but he's not a racist caricature. It's funny that the accusation came primarily from white viewers, while black audiences didn't think that remotely until they heard the claims and absorbed them into their subconscious.

Yeah, that's a big load of bantha-shit.

[Marphy Black]

Maisth, on 11 March 2018 - 12:52 PM, said:

Agreed, the robot one i believe is the cut gay robot sidekick Duke was supposed to have.

That concept was from far later. The text in the image says "Robo Dealer", and judging by the suit and the cigar, this is presumably a robotic dealer meant to be used in the casinos.

[Damien_Azreal]

Toxic34, on 11 March 2018 - 01:20 PM, said:

The Phantom Menace isn't perfect, but it sure as hell isn't disappointing.

No...
Return of the Jedi was disappointing. Not bad, not as good as the previous two... but still enjoyable.
The Phantom Menace was a chore. It gets good, at the end, when Darth Maul fights ObiWan and QuiGon. But then... that's interrupted by stupid with the damn little kid.

[Toxic34]

Damien_Azreal, on 11 March 2018 - 04:40 PM, said:

No...
Return of the Jedi was disappointing. Not bad, not as good as the previous two... but still enjoyable.
The Phantom Menace was a chore. It gets good, at the end, when Darth Maul fights ObiWan and QuiGon. But then... that's interrupted by stupid with the damn little kid.

Well, to each their own. For my part I've found all the movies to be enjoyable, fun, and very damn good. Not one of them was disappointing or a chore to me.

[Altered Reality]

Zaxx, on 11 March 2018 - 01:02 PM, said:

Sure but then why have the golden DE and those piss poor alien weapons?

The golden pistol was there because it had already appeared in Land of the Babes and Manhattan Project (both of which, incidentally, featured an ego system where killing an enemy added ego while getting hit took it away). The alien weapons were not replacements, but additions.

[Dan]

Damien_Azreal, on 11 March 2018 - 12:18 PM, said:

It's funny that people think of Duke Nukem as a FPS game franchise. When... there's only two FPS entries. Yet, there's three third person action games, and four side scrolling platformers.

I'm not sure where you are getting four side scrolling platformers, but counting mobile games there is actually 5 FPS entries and 5 side scrolling platformers,.

[Forge]

[Never Forgotten]

Maisth, on 11 March 2018 - 12:30 PM, said:

More leaks it seems.

First one apparently is Bombshell.

It pisses me off that she wasn't in the final version. I'm not even sure how many versions she was in... She'd have been a better sidekick than Dylan... well if done right...

[Lunick]

Dan, on 11 March 2018 - 06:17 PM, said:

I'm not sure where you are getting four side scrolling platformers, but counting mobile games there is actually 5 FPS entries and 5 side scrolling platformers,.

Platformer:
Duke Nukem 1
Duke Nukem 2
Duke Nukem Gameboy
Duke Nukem Manhattan Project
Duke Nukem Critical Ass


FPS:
Duke Nukem 3D
Duke Nukem Advance
Duke Nukem Forever

Third Person:
Duke Nukem: Zero Hour (just because it has a first person mode doesn't exactly make it a FPS)
Duke Nukem: Time to Kill
Duke Nukem: Land of the Babes

I wouldn't consider the mobile games as anything important, DLC/Addons doesn't count and the Bulletstorm port does not count.

[Zaxx]

Never Forgotten, on 11 March 2018 - 08:31 PM, said:

It pisses me off that she wasn't in the final version. I'm not even sure how many versions she was in... She'd have been a better sidekick than Dylan... well if done right...

Well, at least Dylan won't be in the sequel.

[Never Forgotten]

Zaxx, on 11 March 2018 - 09:06 PM, said:

Well, at least Dylan won't be in the sequel.

We'll, I mean he did return for the DLC... But he wasn't as annoying in that one.

[Zaxx]

Never Forgotten, on 11 March 2018 - 09:51 PM, said:

We'll, I mean he did return for the DLC... But he wasn't as annoying in that one.

I just hate how that joke doesn't work because of the DLC btw. When Dylan gets killed off, has a cliché dramatic death scene and then Duke says "Guess he won't be in the sequel" it's one of the funniest jokes in the game because it's just set up so well... and then Dylan returns in the DLC. A game with true balls of steel would have killed off that character and just had a laugh about it without bringing him back later.

[necroslut]

Never Forgotten, on 11 March 2018 - 08:31 PM, said:

It pisses me off that she wasn't in the final version. I'm not even sure how many versions she was in... She'd have been a better sidekick than Dylan... well if done right...

Yeah, Dylan fucking sucks. If there ever is some kind of remaster of DNF, I hope they at least consider replacing him.

[PokeThePower]

Altered Reality, on 10 March 2018 - 07:28 PM, said:

The proverb says that a symptom of madness is to do the same thing over and over expecting different results. And George did do the same thing (restarting the development of DNF) over and over, fully convinced that "this time it's different! This time everything is planned out! This time the game is gonna come out!"

Aside from 1998 there were no restarts. Everything was iterative and taken in isolation not really a big deal. The madness was indeed the refusal to STOP iterating but the feeling of restarts is an illusion of compressed time in hindsight. Similar to how historical events appear as punctuated moments when in reality the people living them barely noticed anything substantial changing within their lifetime. Even the lighting change didn't result in an immediate redoing of all the levels... especially not any sort of "scrap 'em and replan 'em". It's just that after enough time they had been adapted to the new possibilities and limitations that to compare them across two years *looks* like a restart but the transition was more gradual.

There was only one real restart... everything else was normal game iterative dev I've seen happen everywhere with the exception that the iteration loop never shut down. I've seen projects redo their entire rendering engine in a far more dramatic manner than ever happened on DNF and come out better for it because they committed to shipping with the change once it was in.

There weren't any "This time it's planned out, this time it's gonna come out" until you started seeing the Cutting is Shipping messages a lot.

Zaxx, on 11 March 2018 - 12:55 PM, said:

Now that these leaks reminded me of the old versions of DNF I remembered one thing I never understood: why was the "American rifle" removed from DNF? I think that they should have kept that in instead of the Duke 3D chaingun since it was always featured in the trailers and on the screenshots.
...
Sure but then why have the golden DE and those piss poor alien weapons?

Altered Reality, on 11 March 2018 - 05:46 PM, said:

The golden pistol was there because it had already appeared in Land of the Babes and Manhattan Project (both of which, incidentally, featured an ego system where killing an enemy added ego while getting hit took it away). The alien weapons were not replacements, but additions.

Altered is correct, George was pushing for the Desert Eagle to become Duke's signature gun because the one from Duke 3D never had much personality.

There was a hard shift to being more true to Duke 3D in general which I think was a good move because to be totally honest most of the "new" weapons, including the M16 could have fit just as well in any other first person shooter. The pipebomb variations and different ammo types for shotgun/machine gun worked well though and would have been nice to maintain. Even though it's a strange gun, the triple barrel ripper is distinctly Duke. The Flamethrower was the only new one that really tapped into the Duke vibe well.

Agreed that the new Alien guns are even worse than the ones dropped prior to 2006. They would fit better in Unreal Tournament than Duke and are absolutely flat personality wise.

Never Forgotten, on 11 March 2018 - 08:31 PM, said:

It pisses me off that she wasn't in the final version. I'm not even sure how many versions she was in... She'd have been a better sidekick than Dylan... well if done right...

Past 1998 she was not much more than an idea. She wasn't ever really implemented meaningfully though the design continued to move forward with her as a critical aspect and mission situations were built out as if she was actually there sometimes.

[Zaxx]

SpotsSpot, on 12 March 2018 - 10:39 AM, said:

There was a hard shift to being more true to Duke 3D in general which I think was a good move because to be totally honest most of the "new" weapons, including the M16 could have fit just as well in any other first person shooter.

Here's the thing though: the fact that it's an M16, a common American gun AND that on top of that it's customized with an American flag makes it so "MURICA" to me that it just fits Duke. Duke would fire American because that's the "MURICAN "way, it's dumb as hell and that's why it works... wonderfully. The ripper is a cool weapon too but the American rifle would have been just as cool while also being something new and there's always nice to have a machine gun with an attached grenade launcher.

As for the golden Desert Eagle: I love that weapon, I just don't know why was DNF designed it in such a way that if you drop it you only get common pistols for the rest of the game. Even with the two weapon limit they could have hidden one secret golden DE on every level for the secret hunters. Ever since the 4 weapon limit was patched in I always use it so I can keep the golden DE instead of dropping it on the second corner after picking it up.

[Outtagum]

The pistol in DNF 2011 is an M1911.

[Zaxx]

Zor, on 12 March 2018 - 02:48 PM, said:

The pistol in DNF 2011 is an M1911.

Meh, it will always be a DE to me, I never knew or cared much about actual guns and originally it was supposed to be a DE.

[Altered Reality]

Zaxx, on 12 March 2018 - 03:27 PM, said:

Meh, it will always be a DE to me, I never knew or cared much about actual guns and originally it was supposed to be a DE.

The Desert Eagle is not MURICAN.

[Altered Reality]

SpotsSpot, on 12 March 2018 - 10:39 AM, said:

Even the lighting change didn't result in an immediate redoing of all the levels... especially not any sort of "scrap 'em and replan 'em".

What happened then? Was there ever an "Oh shit, the new renderer is making all levels black!" moment?

SpotsSpot, on 12 March 2018 - 10:39 AM, said:

There weren't any "This time it's planned out, this time it's gonna come out" until you started seeing the Cutting is Shipping messages a lot.

So what was George on, when he said "Our goal is to release Duke Nukem Forever no later than mid-1998!" "DNF is a 1999 game!" "Trust us, DNF will rock when it comes out next year!" "When it's done in 2001!" "DNF will come out before Unreal 2!" "DNF will come out before Doom 3!" "Pigs are growing wings!"

[PikaCommando]

imo the only thing more 'Murican than a M16 with the stars and stripes is Duke Nukem himself. It's a shame that they dropped that.

Yes, the Ripper and the rest of the Duke3D gang are iconic (since DN3D made Duke the icon he is today), but the decision to rehash the original cast instead of going with a new cast (with some originals, like Octabrains and Dr. Proton) makes it more like another Duke adventure than a true sequel, imo.

The Army Ants are quite cool in their own right and the tentacle parasite things are such a waste to be replaced with pigcops. Sure, pigcops are more iconic and also fulfill the same role, but the LARD joke is kinda lost with the EDF.

I'd say the only thing I like from the final DNF that trumps the 2001 DNF is the Octaking and the Energy Leech, for being original enemies (yes, despite the Octaking being an oversized version of the regular). I like the Cycloid's dash too, it was an awesome effect despite being not that all useful (then again, the original Cycloid is a pushover too, but DNF"s Cycloid has more attacks).

[HMNuke93]

Maisth, on 11 March 2018 - 12:30 PM, said:

More leaks it seems.

First one apparently is Bombshell.

This is absolutely great! Would've been awesome if they leaked some images of the Duke model from the 98' trailer.

[PokeThePower]

Altered Reality, on 12 March 2018 - 04:50 PM, said:

What happened then? Was there ever an "Oh shit, the new renderer is making all levels black!" moment?

Almost every time, if not every time, the changes were done in such a way that the existing data was able to continue being used with minor to no interruption. Either the new lighting would approximate legacy info that could then be iterated on to make better use of the new features, or would leave the old system working and require opting in to the new options. The "black levels" that have been described sound to me like either a phase where modern card simply can't deal with the hacks... or more likely... the levels hadn't had "recompile under new terms" clicked yet or a relatively quick lighting swap performed in the version that has been viewed.

Post 2k1 there wasn't any meaningful time where all of DNF development was running around in a completely broken state. Any significant updates to get a "workable" state were easy... but getting a shippable state was a whole different subjective beast.

Altered Reality, on 12 March 2018 - 04:50 PM, said:

So what was George on, when he said "Our goal is to release Duke Nukem Forever no later than mid-1998!" "DNF is a 1999 game!" "Trust us, DNF will rock when it comes out next year!" "When it's done in 2001!" "DNF will come out before Unreal 2!" "DNF will come out before Doom 3!" "Pigs are growing wings!"

This shouldn't be hard. Wishful thinking combined with a genuine belief that he won't make any critical decisions down the road that would derail such wishful thinking. Outside of stuff I can't really post about, prior to 2k6+ "Cutting is Shipping" there wasn't any real "Here is the goal, here is the plan, execute" circumstance.

PikaCommando, on 12 March 2018 - 11:19 PM, said:

imo the only thing more 'Murican than a M16 with the stars and stripes is Duke Nukem himself. It's a shame that they dropped that.

I would have rather seen the ripper go 'Murican in some sort of collectible weapon mods system for all the weapons, than just an M16 with a flag.

PikaCommando, on 12 March 2018 - 11:19 PM, said:

...the tentacle parasite things are such a waste to be replaced with pigcops. Sure, pigcops are more iconic and also fulfill the same role, but the LARD joke is kinda lost with the EDF.

The parasites were fine and could have stayed, especially given the pregnators... but they brought a lot of presentation baggage. Let's say you turn on thermal and see someone is pregnated... scripting everyone reacting to you killing them is a non-trivial effort. Do they realize the person was pregnated, do they not? Do they go on the offensive and require you to kill innocents attacking you for something that from their point of view seems insane, or do they cower and look stupid because they don't know what you know? You can do an effect when you kill every pregnated person to help alleviate that, but it was a bottle of issues that when it came to pre-2k6 "Let's set some damn boundaries and make a Duke 3D sequel" fell off the radar (though to be fair, the parasites possibly fell off the design radar before then).

[OpenMaw]

SpotsSpot, on 13 March 2018 - 02:52 PM, said:

The parasites were fine and could have stayed, especially given the pregnators... but they brought a lot of presentation baggage. Let's say you turn on thermal and see someone is pregnated... scripting everyone reacting to you killing them is a non-trivial effort. Do they realize the person was pregnated, do they not? Do they go on the offensive and require you to kill innocents attacking you for something that from their point of view seems insane, or do they cower and look stupid because they don't know what you know? You can do an effect when you kill every pregnated person to help alleviate that, but it was a bottle of issues that when it came to pre-2k6 "Let's set some damn boundaries and make a Duke 3D sequel" fell off the radar (though to be fair, the parasites possibly fell off the design radar before then).

It's a multiplying, mushrooming issue when you're dealing with NPC's that interact dynamically.

Which is why a game like Doom 2016 basically had the creative ground rule setup "Fuck it, everyone is dead."

And why most shooters going for old-school experience start the game with everything already pretty much in progress. Old school FPS games basically start in "act 3" and stay there until the end of the game. From everything I've heard, read, and seen, it seems like DNF was trying to be much more than that on all fronts... Which is why the final product is as disjointed as it is because it seems like that thing stayed with it, but then there was also a layer of the "cake" where things were double back to being a more conventional sequel, and then finally another layer where lot's of... "popular" things were plugged into the game. Like the weapon limit and the quick time events and such. DNF has rings just like a tree!

[Altered Reality]

SpotsSpot, on 13 March 2018 - 02:52 PM, said:

The parasites were fine and could have stayed, especially given the pregnators... but they brought a lot of presentation baggage. Let's say you turn on thermal and see someone is pregnated... scripting everyone reacting to you killing them is a non-trivial effort. Do they realize the person was pregnated, do they not? Do they go on the offensive and require you to kill innocents attacking you for something that from their point of view seems insane, or do they cower and look stupid because they don't know what you know?

Hindsight is always 20/20, but I think there would have been an easy solution. Kill pregnated person, octababies come out. Onlookers realize person was pregnated.

[PikaCommando]

SpotsSpot, on 13 March 2018 - 02:52 PM, said:

The parasites were fine and could have stayed, especially given the pregnators... but they brought a lot of presentation baggage. Let's say you turn on thermal and see someone is pregnated... scripting everyone reacting to you killing them is a non-trivial effort. Do they realize the person was pregnated, do they not? Do they go on the offensive and require you to kill innocents attacking you for something that from their point of view seems insane, or do they cower and look stupid because they don't know what you know? You can do an effect when you kill every pregnated person to help alleviate that, but it was a bottle of issues that when it came to pre-2k6 "Let's set some damn boundaries and make a Duke 3D sequel" fell off the radar (though to be fair, the parasites possibly fell off the design radar before then).

That's very interesting, I never thought DNF would go that far and deal with the issue like that. I guess bringing back the Assault Commanders and Pigcops make sense now (although there's already a Pigcop in the 2003 version, who's curiously wearing the L.A.R.D. uniform in Las Vegas).

By the way, who are these guys?


I'm assuming it's a generic model for a faction rather than a specific character because he couldn't drive ypu to the EDF Base if he was sniped in Vegas. He's the only (uninfected) human that Duke is seen killing, so are they Proton's henchmen or something (and if so, why is he helping you drive during the highway section)?

[PokeThePower]

Altered Reality, on 13 March 2018 - 05:36 PM, said:

Hindsight is always 20/20, but I think there would have been an easy solution. Kill pregnated person, octababies come out. Onlookers realize person was pregnated.

Easy to write the sentence, tougher to sell the lived experience. I mentioned that option in the comments I made above.

What do the onlookers do then? What are the octababies doing? The obvious standard dev answer is civies duck and cower where they are, octababies run toward the player. If player accidentally shoots any civies while aiming for babies what is the reaction of the other civies? What do the civies do once the babies are dead but you also killed a couple civies? Is it all ok cause you're Duke? Perhaps so, perhaps that feels wrong. As Commando Nukem mentions those circumstances are an open ended bottle of potential and DNF was already overflowing with those sort of bottles.

Some games can get away with absurdism of cartoonish reactions, others invest almost all of their dev bucks in handling the variety of potential situations and outcomes. For a DNF project that is already awarded vaporware multiple times, the question of where to spend those bucks starts to become more relevant. 5 years passed between my last involvement on the project and what you played so I'm not gonna get into the results you saw on screen... but even prior to the big 2k6 rift the question of where to spend our attention was already trimming down.

There is a great dark DNF based more on Body Snatchers/The Thing floating out there in the Duke Egregore... but it's gonna take a special circumstance to snatch that and put it in a commercial box.

PikaCommando, on 13 March 2018 - 05:42 PM, said:

...who's curiously wearing the L.A.R.D. uniform in Las Vegas).

I remember multiple conversations about how to play off of LVPD to still get LARD. I don't think we ever got the point of trying to conclusively resolve that. The easy answer is the V becomes an upside down anarchy symbol and the P gains a swoosh.

PikaCommando, on 13 March 2018 - 05:42 PM, said:

By the way, who are these guys?

That's Vasquez.

The character model was recycled in multiple spots as you've noticed for development purposes. I don't recall the long term plans for the character beyond one of the EDF characters.

[Mav3r1ck]

Seriously?! FFS if it wasn't for Gear Box, then we can have this today. I swear it's always something. This right here just pisses me off.

Truthfully, I really wanted to enjoy DNF that they released but I couldn't help but find it lacking, especially the DLC. I would absolutely LOVE it if they can release this variation of DNF. It may be very outdated. But dammit it looks so freakin' good.

If 3DRealms could somehow release this. It would be such a lovely gift for us fans.

[HulkNukem]

Blame George for not getting 2001 DNF, not Gearbox

[Altered Reality]

Mav3r1ck, on 13 March 2018 - 09:18 PM, said:

Seriously?! FFS if it wasn't for Gear Box,

...then we would still be talking about WID and how the game must be REEEEAL close to release this time.

[Mav3r1ck]

HulkNukem, on 14 March 2018 - 06:52 AM, said:

Blame George for not getting 2001 DNF, not Gearbox

That is true, but unless Gearbox gives back the franchise to 3Drealms or agrees to release this version. Nothing can be done about it.

Altered Reality, on 14 March 2018 - 07:36 AM, said:

...then we would still be talking about WID and how the game must be REEEEAL close to release this time.

That is also true. Then again, none of that would have been an issue with a 2001 release of DNF.

What's so vexing is that it's right there, right around the corner and yet we can't get it. This makes the 14 years of development hell just a waste of time. I'd much prefer this version over the 2011 DNF. It's so fitting for it's time. Though I did enjoy the E3 98 version with the Megadeth Grabbag theme. That is by far my favorite DNF trailer.