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DNF 2001 Build Was Apparently Almost Complete  "3DR wants to release it, but it's up to Gearbox"

User is offline   randir14 

  • 69

#211

I thought Gearbox owned the Duke IP? In that Nerdvana video Randy says they only had a license from Take Two to release DNF.
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User is offline   NUKEMDAVE 

  • 488

#212

Expectations would still be high regardless of Frederik's recent statements about it. My DNF 1998 trailer upload on YouTube has 128K views and my 2001 trailer upload has 56K views. I've watched the comments on them over the years and there are lots of people who have huge expectations about those builds. The majority of the comments I get say that they'd rather play those builds than play the final game that was released. I think the damage has already been done long ago. As much as I'd like to see the old builds released and be able to check them out for myself, I think it could backfire on them worse than World Tour did. Unless they intend to include tools and not try to prevent people from editing/modding the builds, I say they're better off looking towards the future of Duke instead. We'll see what they do, but I'm imagining something that's very limited and only allows you to tour around certain pieces of the builds they chose to include. Pieces that are polished enough to showcase. Fans are going to want something substantial enough to tinker around with and edit at the bare minimum.
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User is offline   Zaxx 

  • 272

#213

 randir14, on 19 March 2018 - 03:32 AM, said:

I thought Gearbox owned the Duke IP? In that Nerdvana video Randy says they only had a license from Take Two to release DNF.

Gearbox owns the Duke IP but Take 2 has the publishing rights to DNF.
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User is offline   Bloodshot 

  • 761

#214

I think it'd be a good move if gearbox includes the tools for it too and lets fans use it as a base for duke projects that won't get shut down.

It would restore a little trust in gearbox that they had lost with their previous attitudes and business practices.
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User is offline   Sinisterambo 

  • 16

#215

Hello guys, long time no speak!

Great news about 2001 DNF. Reminds me of the moderator on the official 3DR forums saying this version doesn't exist anymore. I told him it did. Liar.
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User is offline   Altered Reality 

  • 203

#216

 Sinisterambo, on 19 March 2018 - 08:56 AM, said:

Hello guys, long time no speak!

Great news about 2001 DNF. Reminds me of the moderator on the official 3DR forums saying this version doesn't exist anymore. I told him it did. Liar.

Joe Siegler has ALWAYS been a liar. Remember when he insisted that Human Head was absolutely not working on Prey?
http://forums.3dreal...926&postcount=6
http://forums.3dreal...49&postcount=38
http://forums.3dreal...60&postcount=12
I bet he also lied about not having the 360° shots of Prey. https://forums.3drea...24&postcount=12

If your brain tells you one thing and your heart tells you another, get rid of those silly doubts and listen to your brain.

This post has been edited by Altered Reality: 19 March 2018 - 09:40 AM

-1

User is offline   Nacho 

  • 62

#217

 Altered Reality, on 19 March 2018 - 09:36 AM, said:

Joe Siegler has ALWAYS been a liar. Remember when he insisted that Human Head was absolutely not working on Prey?
http://forums.3dreal...926&postcount=6
http://forums.3dreal...49&postcount=38
http://forums.3dreal...60&postcount=12
I bet he also lied about not having the 360 shots of Prey. https://forums.3drea...24&postcount=12


Part of being the community manager involves either keeping silent, which ends up being an answer to most, or lying to maintain the fascade. I don't think Joe ever lied with malicious intent but just wanted to keep the fans guessing and in the dark until a formal announcement was made. David Jaffe of Twisted Metal and God of War fame was notorious for lying to keep things a surprise because of how easily stuff got leaked or spread true or not and I think it's actually a good stance to make in a lot of cases to keep hype down and controllable.
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User is offline   Altered Reality 

  • 203

#218

 Nacho, on 19 March 2018 - 10:43 AM, said:

Part of being the community manager involves either keeping silent, which ends up being an answer to most, or lying to maintain the fascade.

Or apply a "we do not talk about this topic" policy, which consists in deleting posts and threads about a certain topic, without warning. It would keep the hype down as well, and not involve lying.
In the case of Prey, it could have been applied the day Corrinne Yu left 3DRealms, which was 2 years before the first rumors involving Human Head. In the case of DNF, it could simply be a prohibition to talk about every version of DNF except the one that was released.

If your brain tells you one thing and your heart tells you another, get rid of those silly doubts and listen to your brain.

This post has been edited by Altered Reality: 19 March 2018 - 11:48 AM

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User is offline   Commando Nukem 

  • Judge Mental
  • 2,228

#219

I'll take Wieder's words over Fred and Randy.

Randy, first off, has demonstrated he doesn't really know quality. He thinks that Aliens Colonial Marines, a game that he was responsible for getting done, was launched in a literally broken state. I encountered so many glitches and bugs and crashes on my first play through. Same can be said of Fred, unfortunately. The Mass Destruction / Bombshell situation is still wholly unacceptable and, regardless of what the legal situation was, there should have been more communication from 3D Realms and Interceptor with the audience and fan base. Even just an acknowledgement, a statement. "Things are being handled."

I doubt it was mostly unfinished. We've already had a break down from Wieder from previous discussions. We know it likely wasn't any 90%. So it's somewhere in between.

Sad to say, but Randy is the last person I would take at his word on this kind of thing.

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User is offline   Bloodshot 

  • 761

#220

I think i'm be willing to give Randy the benefit of the doubt if (or when?) this does get released if they let it be released as is and give us everything that was in there - but not if they hold anything back or make it like "oh here's the 2001 build but it's integrated with steam and has extra COPY PROTECTION just because"

Having a special version that has a new interface and lets you load the most playable parts of it, that is guaranteed to work on new computers is nice to have but it should be a companion to the actual raw content, otherwise it becomes a sort of "here's the build through OUR lens and this is all you can do"
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User is offline   PikaCommando 

  • 386

#221

What about the 1997 sidescroller DNF?
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User is offline   necroslut 

  • 199

#222

 PikaCommando, on 19 March 2018 - 02:23 PM, said:

What about the 1997 sidescroller DNF?

Wasn't that eventually finished as released by a different company, as Alien Rampage? I don't think the Duke version ever got very far before being reworked, IIRC it wasn't in development for very long.

Blue barrels are heavier than regular barrels
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User is offline   spessu_sb 

  • 92

#223

 Green, on 18 March 2018 - 05:48 PM, said:

Randy Pitchford discusses Duke Nukem Forever 2001 with a Nerdvana Live caller, gives an update on the publishing rights, discusses some future plans, and talks about having reasonable expectations.

Nerdvana Live Show, Ep. 11 with Randy Pitchford and Randy Varnell!

Thank you for the link.

Randy randy boy.. I don't buy your words that DNF 2001 which was seemingly for the longest time being developed, single DNF version, that it was only 9percent done in freakin 5years. lol.
98-early 2003 makes 5years one single build and it doesn't at all seem far fetched to me that a game can seriously get some progress in 5years, one single build/version. Because charlie did that 2001 trailer break down analysis back when 2011 DNF released and those statements supports Fred's words. Also the fact that Randy doesn't even have the builds but some words of ex-3DR employs who now work on GB and have seen some old version of DNF 2001 once upon a time.

It seems to me like randy is just trying to kill the hype asap to get the attention away from this iconic project.
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User is offline   Altered Reality 

  • 203

#224

 necroslut, on 19 March 2018 - 02:53 PM, said:

Wasn't that eventually finished as released by a different company, as Alien Rampage? I don't think the Duke version ever got very far before being reworked, IIRC it wasn't in development for very long.

I have read that rumor too, but it cannot be correct. According to PC Gaming Wiki, Alien Rampage was released on September 19, 1996. Meanwhile, a December 22, 1997 snapshot of the 3DRealms site still shows the Duke Nukem Forever sidescroller as an upcoming Apogee game.
This cannot be ascribed to a lack of updates resulting in obsolete information, because the page was updated between October 23 and December 22, as proved by Stargunner being moved from the upcoming games list to the released games list.

I'm betting on yet another lie by our old pal Joe.

If your brain tells you one thing and your heart tells you another, get rid of those silly doubts and listen to your brain.

This post has been edited by Altered Reality: 19 March 2018 - 03:27 PM

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User is offline   Nacho 

  • 62

#225

 Altered Reality, on 19 March 2018 - 03:17 PM, said:

I have read that rumor too, but it cannot be correct. According to PC Gaming Wiki, Alien Rampage was released on September 19, 1996. Meanwhile, a December 22, 1997 snapshot of the 3DRealms site still shows the Duke Nukem Forever sidescroller as an upcoming Apogee game.
This cannot be ascribed to a lack of updates resulting in obsolete information, because the page was updated between October 23 and December 22, as proved by Stargunner being moved from the upcoming games list to the released games list.

I'm betting on yet another lie by our old pal Joe.


No, it did become Alien Rampage. When they abandoned that specific Duke Nukem Forever they moved the name over to the sequel to Duke 3D they had in development.
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User is online   Hendricks266 

  • EDuke32 Senior Developer
  • 6,035

  #226

The Alien Rampage v1.13 disc has the following dates:

 Volume in drive D is RAMPAGE
 Volume Serial Number is 9677-886D

 Directory of D:\

1996-12-04  10:21 AM             6,312 FAQ.TXT
1996-12-04  10:29 AM             1,211 INSTALL.CFG
1995-10-14  07:00 PM           140,088 INSTALL.EXE
1996-09-20  03:47 AM            51,476 LOGO.PCX
1996-12-05  04:05 AM        11,596,975 RAMPAGE.SHR
1996-09-19  05:40 AM               748 README.TXT
1996-12-04  10:20 AM             3,711 TECHINFO.TXT
               7 File(s)     11,800,521 bytes
               0 Dir(s)               0 bytes free


Since this is a post-1.0 version, I suspect the September 1996 release date is credible.

The DNF sidescroller prototypes/data in my possession date between August and November 1996. Meanwhile, I also have a prototype of Alien Rampage calling itself "Ravager" dated August 1995. It has the same player sprite as the released game.
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User is offline   necroslut 

  • 199

#227

 Hendricks266, on 19 March 2018 - 05:53 PM, said:

The Alien Rampage v1.13 disc has the following dates:
[/code]

Since this is a post-1.0 version, I suspect the September 1996 release date is credible.

The DNF sidescroller prototypes/data in my possession date between August and November 1996. Meanwhile, I also have a prototype of Alien Rampage calling itself "Ravager" dated August 1995. It has the same player sprite as the released game.

I think it's rather well known that Ravager and Alien Rampage, at least, is the same game. What it's relation to Forever is you probably have more insight into than anyone here.

Even if it were true, not very much in the way of assets can have been transferred over as side-DNF and A.R. don't even seem to share the same art style, with Duke being pre-rendered and AR drawn. Duke also seems to have a mouse-aimed control scheme, and the only weapon shown in the leaked screenshots is an electric type weapon, neither match anything in AR. I suppose there could have design choices carried over, but we don't really know anything about those.
Could side-Duke and Ravager have been developed in tandem, sharing only the base engine?

Blue barrels are heavier than regular barrels

This post has been edited by necroslut: 20 March 2018 - 12:20 AM

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#228

I can't believe people are actually discussing "faith", Randy is just a guy, a businessman and many other things. Regarding the Aliens CM incident, I think somewhere along the lines things got F***ed u, the popularity of borderlands was unexpected and efforts went elsewhere and somewhere along the lines Sega said "cough up our game" and at risk of losing his business he released a dud. As for DNF, I never really saw Duke Nukem Forever's final product as anything more than patchwork in a way it probably should have been marketed as such which I kind of hope this new package is. Maybe a case of "the missing floppys"

This new package that they are putting together actually business wise makes a lot of sense. I actually hope that if they are going to release this as a legacy collection, we get to see some of the other levels that might have been scrapped as incomplete drawing to a close of the final build of the game. Even the build as it was when gearbox took over. If George actually commented "theres a reason we never released it" then so be it.

Im not 100% sure what to think about Frederick Vs Randy's comments however. I have some appreciation for Randys "you're going to be disappointed" comments, that feels honest enough, but then if there is so little to see wtf have they been doing for the 15 or so years in development?? but also Fred's comments don't make sense either "90%" complete seems like a bit of a stretch, the idea that they just dumped it because the assets went black because of lighting or whatever doesn't add up. You'd work it out over scrapping 90% of completed work.

Fingers crossed we might get a whole bunch of cool assets from the builds so we can use them elsewhere?
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User is offline   necroslut 

  • 199

#229

 Benjamin Foley, on 20 March 2018 - 12:23 AM, said:

I can't believe people are actually discussing "faith", Randy is just a guy, a businessman and many other things. Regarding the Aliens CM incident, I think somewhere along the lines things got F***ed u, the popularity of borderlands was unexpected and efforts went elsewhere and somewhere along the lines Sega said "cough up our game" and at risk of losing his business he released a dud. As for DNF, I never really saw Duke Nukem Forever's final product as anything more than patchwork in a way it probably should have been marketed as such which I kind of hope this new package is. Maybe a case of "the missing floppys"

This new package that they are putting together actually business wise makes a lot of sense. I actually hope that if they are going to release this as a legacy collection, we get to see some of the other levels that might have been scrapped as incomplete drawing to a close of the final build of the game. Even the build as it was when gearbox took over. If George actually commented "theres a reason we never released it" then so be it.

Im not 100% sure what to think about Frederick Vs Randy's comments however. I have some appreciation for Randys "you're going to be disappointed" comments, that feels honest enough, but then if there is so little to see wtf have they been doing for the 15 or so years in development?? but also Fred's comments don't make sense either "90%" complete seems like a bit of a stretch, the idea that they just dumped it because the assets went black because of lighting or whatever doesn't add up. You'd work it out over scrapping 90% of completed work.

Fingers crossed we might get a whole bunch of cool assets from the builds so we can use them elsewhere?

Even if Fred's "90%" estimate would be entirely correct, a lot of people read that as 99.9% - a game that is 90% done still has a lot of work to be done on it. One could probably argue that LameDuke was 90% complete, even though very little of its content remained in the final game. Though how you even compute how complete a game is that really didn't have any design specs or full plan....

Blue barrels are heavier than regular barrels

This post has been edited by necroslut: 20 March 2018 - 03:48 AM

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User is offline   Altered Reality 

  • 203

#230

Posted Image
Personally, I'll believe the story that leads to the least disappointment.

If I believe Fred:
- if he's right, I'll be ecstatic for being right all along and getting a great game
- if he's wrong, I'll be sorely disappointed that I'm getting little more than what I saw in the trailer

If I believe Randy:
- if he's right, I won't be disappointed because I get exactly what I was expecting
- if he's wrong, I'll be ecstatic for getting a great game

The choice seems clear to me.

If your brain tells you one thing and your heart tells you another, get rid of those silly doubts and listen to your brain.
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User is offline   spessu_sb 

  • 92

#231

 Zaxx, on 19 March 2018 - 02:51 AM, said:

Fred made a mistake when he said it's 90% complete because if you go around saying stuff like that to overly enthusiastic fans like spessu_sb the next day they'll start spreading the word that DNF 2001 is real and it's 15 hours of awesome gameplay that will be better than DNF 2011.

Love it how you just twist ppls words as you please. Nowhere have I said that it is x-amount of long or feels very well polished. What I have said however, is I take fred's word that it is playable and fun. What playable and fun means, is left for everyone to figure on their own but its definitely not a full game without glitches if thats what you thought i expected. Also said that it is most definitely not what you mister negative keep saying that it's just straight up shit, or in your words "sucks ass".

You don't know me as person one single bit, so don't go assuming that I'm the type of person who goes around saying "this game is x-hrs long and feels like a complete game" based on vague information what some people only said. There's a big difference between is this -- long duration and is playable and fun and if I have to break it down for you to understand. Playable indicates that it is something that does function in some way but not something you probably could fully enjoy as a game because otherwise it would have been released and would be stated as simply Good or something other than playable. Fun indicates that it does not suck ass but has something that makes you smile, but that neither means as complete product with start and ending would make you smile but more from the bits and pieces that got made, like certain sections/levels based on fred's and charlie's words.

This post has been edited by spessu_sb: 20 March 2018 - 06:05 AM

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User is offline   Zaxx 

  • 272

#232

 spessu_sb, on 20 March 2018 - 05:42 AM, said:

Love it how you just twist ppls words as you please. Nowhere have I said that it's x-amount of long or feels very well polished. What I have said however, is that it is most definitely not what you mister negative keep saying, that "it's shit".

You don't know me as person one single bit, so don't go assuming that I'm the type of person who goes around saying "this game is x-hrs long and feels like a complete game" based on vague information what some people only said.

Sorry if you feel you got singled out but that was not my intention, you just stuck out to me with your unrealistic expectations regarding DNF 2001.

I mean this is what you wrote after Fred's impressions of the game surfaced:

Quote

The world deserves to get this version after all the tease that went on for years and in the end just to get disappointed with that final released quickly hacked together version.

I'm ready to bet my money that this one has stood the test of time because it's the real deal and thus worlds better than 2011 one.

No, it did not stand the test of time because the finished product does not exist. Is that clear enough? I don't understand how you couldn't see what an unrealistic pipe dream you have here.

And just to stay with your expectations this is what I wrote in context:

Quote

Fred made a mistake when he said it's 90% complete because if you go around saying stuff like that to overly enthusiastic fans like spessu_sb the next day they'll start spreading the word that DNF 2001 is real and it's 15 hours of awesome gameplay that will be better than DNF 2011. That mentality has to be discouraged so people don't start imagining things because that will only lead to a shitstorm that's bad for everyone. If the expectations are not realistic then let's say Gearbox releases the damn thing only so conspiracy theories and accusations can surface an hour later about how they deliberately held back content while the "real DNF 2001" is in some secret basement being awesome and 90% complete.


What did you write when you saw what Randy had to say? This fucking thing:

Quote

Randy randy boy.. I don't buy your words that DNF 2001 which was seemingly for the longest time being developed, single DNF version, that it was only 9percent done in freakin 5years. lol.
98-early 2003 makes 5years one single build and it doesn't at all seem far fetched to me that a game can seriously get some progress in 5years, one single build/version. Because charlie did that 2001 trailer break down analysis back when 2011 DNF released and those statements supports Fred's words. Also the fact that Randy doesn't even have the builds but some words of ex-3DR employs who now work on GB and have seen some old version of DNF 2001 once upon a time.

It seems to me like randy is just trying to kill the hype asap to get the attention away from this iconic project.

See, it's exactly what I described. You've yet to see a second from DNF 2001 but you're already ready to put the blame on Pitchford. You don't want the dream to die and that's fine but you know, at some point you just have to face the music and accept that the dream died a decade ago.

And well, you definitely have to stop spreading your delusions and attacking people who happen to have a realistic viewpoint.

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 20 March 2018 - 06:32 AM

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User is offline   spessu_sb 

  • 92

#233

 Zaxx, on 20 March 2018 - 06:23 AM, said:

Sorry if you feel you got singled out but that was not my intention, you just stuck out to me with your unrealistic expectations regarding DNF 2001.

I mean this is what you wrote after Fred's impressions of the game surfaced:

No, it did not stand the test of time because the finished product does not exist. Is that clear enough? I don't understand how you couldn't see what an unrealistic pipe dream you have here.

And just to stay with your expectations this is what I wrote in context:


What did you write when you saw what Randy had to say? This fucking thing:

See, it's exactly what I described. You've yet to see a second from DNF 2001 but you're already ready to put the blame on Pitchford. You don't want the dream to die and that's fine but you know, at some point you just have to face the music and accept that the dream died a decade ago.

And well, you definitely have to stop spreading your delusions and attacking people who happen to have a realistic viewpoint.


Guess I should have clarified more indepth that "stand the test of time" thing meaning. DNF 2011 is a game that has mechanics that I despise, call of duty etc influence. To me, it doesn't require very much to surpass DNF 2011. Now if DNF 01 alpha/beta/whatever it is, has as fred and charlie says, legit playable sections, then to me that kinda is already the real deal and worlds better than the final released product. For a fact I know it doesn't have plain regenerating health in it because back in early 00's that simply wasn't a thing yet. It neither has a weaponlimit or call of duty sprint running thing etc because these mechanics neither were standard at the time. This already makes the gameplay mechanics 100% better than 2011 one because it actually handles like a PC FPS, which is the type I prefer.

If there were to be any npc's/scripted events (I expect there to be minimal amount at most because it wasn't a complete product) then that most likely is also worlds better than the final one because 01 trailer lays a completely more serious setting/atmosphere/tone compared to the joke fest of Dylan Forever.

Put blame on Pitchford. How about for the fact that this guy has literally done nothing good for the Duke Nukem ip? World Tour as idea yeah, was great but it was also over priced, it was buggy in general, it was with several technical issues such as the most low quality sound samples ever by accident but yet they let it go public and took long time to fix it too, no ability to disable autoaim eventhough dos dn3d allowed such already.. Fred, a person who already delivered a classic fps in modern times (RotT remake). Yeah it's absolutely horribly optimized etc but if not mistaken, it was also him who told the truth about how they used prefabs/meshes in a wrong way, which resulted in serious performance issues. Base idea of that game was right though, fastpaced and un-forgiving.

Now this same guy described the Doom 4 private quakecon reveal gameplay in ~2015 perfectly accurately, eventhough Bethesda nor anyone else really gave info what it's like. Also seeing him talk on that 2017 end of summer Gearbox-Duke4.net stream, just dying to give the un-finished dnf versions for world to see and offering to do it all for free to get it runnin on modern os etc. Speaking this with a legit passion in his eyes, briefly also describing some of the content just to see Pitchford bluntly and depressingly talk negative about whatever Duke Nukem related. This guy, Randy Pitchford for the longest time bragged how he got Duke rights from 3D Realms via the won lawsuit, how HE owns the Duke license now and not 3DR and now he supposedly can't do shit with the ip? He neither does even try to make ANY kind of positivity towards it. Once again.. 3DR has the actual DNF builds, fred talks about them based on his firsthand experience, randy talks about them without even having the fucking builds. Why again would I take randys word for it when this guy has not only lied massively in the past (ACM, DNF 2011 hype speaches..) but literally is keeping Duke in the grave.

Don't have any delusions, just expectations based on what I've analyzed from told statements. And I neither have attacked you lol. If anything, you bait started it yourself.

 spessu_sb, on 05 March 2018 - 03:48 PM, said:

The world deserves to get this version after all the tease that went on for years and in the end just to get disappointed with that final released quickly hacked together version.

I'm ready to bet my money that this one has stood the test of time because it's the real deal and thus worlds better than 2011 one.

To which you responded

 Zaxx, on 05 March 2018 - 06:15 PM, said:

Well it stood the test of time so much that it was scrapped and never finished. It would be awesome to see this version of the game as a curiosity but rest assured that as a video games it's unfinished and sucks ass. The fondness that is associated with DNF 2001 comes from an E3 trailer, that's all and I'd like remind you that the trailer for DNF 2011 was awesome as hell too.
To which my "attack" responce was.

 spessu_sb, on 05 March 2018 - 06:30 PM, said:

Maybe you haven't read what Charlie has written here and so, what Fred has described it literally features based on him inspecting those builds first hand.

It was scrapped because GEORGE wanted the (at the time visuals) to be updated because they would have not given Doom 3 or HL2 a competition. Big sacrifice to scrap everything even if no else wanted but George. Endless loop of just to keep adding on whatever it was that George wanted DNF to feature, the latest and greatest idea/feature any other game had shown. But I disagree like I think many gamers would, in that yeah visually DNF01 may have not challenged neither those upcoming games really but in gameplay it would have raw beaten them.


This post has been edited by spessu_sb: 20 March 2018 - 07:33 AM

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User is offline   Honza 

  • 13

#234

 Altered Reality, on 20 March 2018 - 03:52 AM, said:

Posted Image
Personally, I'll believe the story that leads to the least disappointment.

If I believe Fred:
- if he's right, I'll be ecstatic for being right all along and getting a great game
- if he's wrong, I'll be sorely disappointed that I'm getting little more than what I saw in the trailer

If I believe Randy:
- if he's right, I won't be disappointed because I get exactly what I was expecting
- if he's wrong, I'll be ecstatic for getting a great game

The choice seems clear to me.


Yes I'm expecting exactly this.

Considering what happened with DNF2011 my expectations are that we will be given some super encrypted piece of that 2001 build and we would be unable to do anything with - maybe play 1-2 levels and that's it. No mod tools, no good "hands-on" experience.
Why? Well they might feel ashamed what was there and how they implemented it - it's exactly what Randy said - you have to live with it and if community gets proof there was more and they didn't use it he will always be responsible for it, if they give limited content then it can't be proved.

I still believe the best thing for the community would be a leak Half-Life 2 Alpha/Beta style - it just went out in the open and I remember they even sold it in Russia as half-finished product, so yes there is market for this and people are willing to pay for it.
For those interested in knowing more: http://half-life.wik...alf-Life_2_Beta
In the end community took the pieces together and released it as mod: http://half-life.wik...ing_Information
Which in my opinion would be the best case scenario for DNF1998 and DNF2001 - Valve even decided to live with the mod based on the leak (showing they are actually grown ups): http://half-life.wik...on#Legal_status
Considering they already got paid for the DNF2011 I can't imagine there would be any actual damage/losses.

I don't know but after 4 years of development having 9 % completed? If I was working in that studio and after 4 years 9 % was done I would not be happy with myself, let alone the bosses must have been displeased as hell.

In any case somebody is lying here - either it's the guy saying it's 90 % complete (Schreiber) or it's Randy and there is only one way to prove it - make a document about your work on Duke Nukem Forever as it would certainly fall under fair use: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use

If Schreiber is right and points the camera to the directory structure, shows some never seen before art, provided SHA256 checksums of all of the content there including with file sizes and maybe 20 minutes of gameplay throughout the whole thing then we know who was right while staying on the legal end of it...

On a side note - I remember long time ago Randy said he didn't acquire Duke Nukem IP to just release DNF - as he spent a lot of money on it and he released nothing beyond gluing together the DNF2007 build, his bosses are OK with it?

This post has been edited by Honza: 20 March 2018 - 08:22 AM

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User is offline   Zaxx 

  • 272

#235

 spessu_sb, on 20 March 2018 - 07:21 AM, said:

snip

Okay, I understand your perspective better now that you've explained it so I'll just leave it at that and focus on the stuff that I disagree with.

Quote

Put blame on Pitchford. How about for the fact that this guy has literally done nothing good for the Duke Nukem ip? World Tour as idea yeah, was great but it was also over priced, it was buggy in general, it was with several technical issues such as the most low quality sound samples ever by accident but yet they let it go public and took long time to fix it too, no ability to disable autoaim eventhough dos dn3d allowed such already.. Fred, a person who already delivered a classic fps in modern times (RotT remake). Yeah it's absolutely horribly optimized etc but if not mistaken, it was also him who told the truth about how they used prefabs/meshes in a wrong way, which resulted in serious performance issues. Base idea of that game was right though, fastpaced and un-forgiving.

Now this same guy described the Doom 4 private quakecon reveal gameplay in ~2015 perfectly accurately, eventhough Bethesda nor anyone else really gave info what it's like. Also seeing him talk on that 2017 end of summer Gearbox-Duke4.net stream, just dying to give the un-finished dnf versions for world to see and offering to do it all for free to get it runnin on modern os etc. Speaking this with a legit passion in his eyes, briefly also describing some of the content just to see Pitchford bluntly and depressingly talk negative about whatever Duke Nukem related. This guy, Randy Pitchford for the longest time bragged how he got Duke rights from 3D Realms via the won lawsuit, how HE owns the Duke license now and not 3DR and now he supposedly can't do shit with the ip? He neither does even try to make ANY kind of positivity towards it. Once again.. 3DR has the actual DNF builds, fred talks about them based on his firsthand experience, randy talks about them without even having the fucking builds. Why again would I take randys word for it when this guy has not only lied massively in the past (ACM, DNF 2011 hype speaches..) but literally is keeping Duke in the grave.

For the record I really don't have a "soft spot" for Pitchford (the guy's a snake oil salesman, no question about it) but I have to defend him here a little.

First things first I think it's pretty evident that Randy cares about Duke and that without him we would have never seen DNF on store shelves. Like it or not he is part of the 3D Realms family: he worked on Duke 3D Atomic Edition, he worked on Shadow Warrior, that stuff is part of his DNA as a game developer and sure, he may not be the perfect IP holder but when you look around you really don't see anyone who could be more suited to continue with the IP. And really without Gearbox I don't think we'd have a 3D Realms now in any shape or form because back in 2009 the company was in very deep shit. They really needed GBX's investment, they needed someone who was willing to buy the Duke IP because without that it's likely that Take Two would have won a giant lawsuit against 3DR and all of the company's IPs would have been auctioned to various publishers.

Now of course everything has a downside and so does the fact that Gearbox is owning the IP now. Gearbox is an AAA developer, they think in terms that AAA developers like to think in and from that position the Duke IP is sadly in a very hard place now. DNF was not successful, Duke is not popular, a large chunk of the current generation has no idea what Duke Nukem is and that pretty much rules out an AAA Duke game happening anytime soon. Because of this we just don't see stuff happening with Duke anymore, Randy is instead focused on trying to give the IP some visibility by including Duke as an extra character in other franchises, giving him cameos in movies, selling the movie rights so a Duke movie could be made etc. I think that a smarter businessman would realize that AAA is not the right route now and instead focus on making smaller titles (stuff that Devolver Digital would do) but then again Pitchford could be scared that if a small "indie" game ends up being shit it could only further devalue the franchise.

The sad reality is that if you want to stick to that "AAA mindset" there is not much to do with Duke now other than releasing remasters and just sitting on the IP. And who knows, maybe if Gearbox does publish a DNF Collection a DNF remaster for PC and current gen consoles will be a part of that and the thing is that DNF's bad reception has a lot to do with the fact that it ran like shit on consoles. With good performance, the 4 weapon limit that was added with a patch and with some other adjustments that are not outside the scope of a remaster DNF could be redeemed and salvaged a bit. With the current console hardware you can easily remaster even DNF so it runs at 1080p and 60 fps, with that and the low expectations people have for the game now the critical consensus could easily be "hey, it's not as bad as I remember" and that could definitely help the franchise.

As for World Tour sure, it had serious issues at launch and even now it's not where it should be but if you look at it you can clearly see that they tried to make a quality port. World Tour has a lot more effort put into it than Megaton had, it has a new episode from the original designers (and a map designed by Randy, the guy who doesn't care according to you...), new music from Lee Jackson so you know, when it comes to WT as a package it's great, they just fucked up the technical side of it. I don't think that has much to do with a lack of effort and a lot more with the fact that Gearbox is new at publishing stuff so things don't work as well as they should.

And when it comes to Fred and the current 3D Realms I think it's pretty obvious that while the passion is clearly there they have to improve when it comes to game development. I've yet to play Rad Rodgers (a game that actually looks like a good one but they managed to royally fuck up everything else connected with it: the KS campaign, the change in publisher, you name it, it's doomed now) but Interceptor's / Slipgate's work doesn't scream quality to me. RoTT was good but it has serious technical issues and tons of bugs = not good enough for Duke. Bombshell was quite bad on top of the technical issues and tons of bugs = not good for Duke at all YET without GBX's interference it would have been a Duke game and the last nail on the franchise's coffin. Thanks Gearbox!

I want to like the new 3D Realms, I really do but I can't right now. Publishing Ion Maiden is a step in the right direction but they have to step up their game as developers.

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 20 March 2018 - 08:39 AM

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User is offline   Steveeeie 

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#236

DNF 2011 contained videos and images from older builds. Gearbox wouldn't need any kind of special licensing rights to update DNF2011 to include an extended game play video of its state in 2001. Surely this would answer a lot of questions about completion.

This post has been edited by Steveeeie: 20 March 2018 - 10:33 AM

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User is offline   Altered Reality 

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#237

 Honza, on 20 March 2018 - 08:20 AM, said:

Yes I'm expecting exactly this.

I'm expecting this to happen in any case - even if what we get includes lots of levels, raw assets, and the level editor. People will still bitch that what they got was not the complete package, that they got gypped, that the "real" DNF 2001 is way more awesone than that, that it's still hidden somewhere waiting to be leaked, and that Randy is holding onto it and not releasing it because it would put him to shame. Even if Wieder confirms that what they released is all that exists, people will say Randy convinced him to say that.
I really hope that we get a substantial package, just to see haters in denial rage anyway.

 Honza, on 20 March 2018 - 08:20 AM, said:

On a side note - I remember long time ago Randy said he didn't acquire Duke Nukem IP to just release DNF - as he spent a lot of money on it and he released nothing beyond gluing together the DNF2007 build, his bosses are OK with it?

Oh yes, I remember. I'm firmly convinced that people would have liked it better had he said that he absolutely, under no circumstance, will ever develop anything new related to Duke Nukem, and he will just rerelease Duke Nukem 3D again and again, because Duke Nukem 3D is the only Duke Nukem-related thing Duke Nukem fans don't hate. That was NOT sarcasm.

If your brain tells you one thing and your heart tells you another, get rid of those silly doubts and listen to your brain.

This post has been edited by Altered Reality: 20 March 2018 - 10:44 AM

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User is offline   Honza 

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#238

 Altered Reality, on 20 March 2018 - 10:41 AM, said:


Oh yes, I remember. I'm firmly convinced that people would have liked it better had he said that he absolutely, under no circumstance, will ever develop anything new related to Duke Nukem, and he will just rerelease Duke Nukem 3D again and again, because Duke Nukem 3D is the only Duke Nukem-related thing Duke Nukem fans don't hate. That was NOT sarcasm.


I think Duke fans were quite clear on what they want - they don't want Call of Duty clone and they don't want any weapons limit. If you ask me Shadow Warrior 2013 delivered exactly that and in my opinion it was an excellent game and the gamers (user score) agree:
http://www.metacriti...e-nukem-forever
http://www.metacriti.../shadow-warrior

Also Duke fans want the game to be at lease somewhat controversial, which I'm quite sure it won't be because we unfortunately live in politically correct World and because putting any adult stuff into it would give it rating which would consequently hurt sales.
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User is offline   Altered Reality 

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#239

 Honza, on 20 March 2018 - 10:58 AM, said:

I think Duke fans were quite clear on what they want - they don't want Call of Duty clone and they don't want any weapons limit. If you ask me Shadow Warrior 2013 delivered exactly that and in my opinion it was an excellent game and the gamers (user score) agree:
http://www.metacriti...e-nukem-forever
http://www.metacriti.../shadow-warrior

Ah, yes, but put Duke into a game with similar style and brace yourself for the shitstorm: "Duke wouldn't do this! Duke wouldn't do that!" "This isn't the REAL Duke!" "That's not how it worked in Duke Nukem 3D!" "Worst game EVER!" "Duke is dead!" "They are raping my childhood!" "Ruined forever!" "Only George understands Duke games!"

 Honza, on 20 March 2018 - 10:58 AM, said:

Also Duke fans want the game to be at lease somewhat controversial, which I'm quite sure it won't be because we unfortunately live in politically correct World and because putting any adult stuff into it would give it rating which would consequently hurt sales.

But give them something that IS controversial, and they will bitch. Case in point: "You're fucked".
Also, DNF was rated M, even though George had repeatedly said it would get the gaming equivalent of PG-13.

If your brain tells you one thing and your heart tells you another, get rid of those silly doubts and listen to your brain.

This post has been edited by Altered Reality: 20 March 2018 - 11:28 AM

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User is offline   Commando Nukem 

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#240

 Altered Reality, on 20 March 2018 - 11:13 AM, said:

Ah, yes, but put Duke into a game with similar style and brace yourself for the shitstorm: "Duke wouldn't do this! Duke wouldn't do that!" "This isn't the REAL Duke!" "That's not how it worked in Duke Nukem 3D!" "Worst game EVER!" "Duke is dead!" "They are raping my childhood!" "Ruined forever!" "Only George understands Duke games!"





Well, yeah, I wouldn't expect Duke to run around wielding a Katana because that's not his style. Shadow Warrior worked for Lo Wang, more or less, because it didn't get in the players way with a lot of overt scripting. It let the player carry their guns, and kill badguys, and it hit the ground running instead of meandering through set pieces for hours upon hours.

Duke has always, even in the 2D days, retained some pretty solid core tenants of the gameplay experience. Duke Nukem Forever zagged against a lot of those core tenants for broad appeal. Which is the biggest mistake a lot of franchises make, instead of sticking to what made them popular and successful, and building off of that, they go for what everybody else is doing.

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