[ShXIII]

my mistake i thought this site was about DNF and not about bending over for 3dr

[MrAdidaKing]

johndough, on May 18 2009, 05:28 PM, said:

Why don't you just leave?
Quit being a negative, screaming troll.

Um. Is it wrong to have an opinion around here? Just because he is not a 3DR fanboy doesn't mean he is necessarily wrong.

[OpenMaw]

ShXIII, on May 18 2009, 05:31 PM, said:

ok you people keep on defending 3dr, I'm just going by the obvious that we will never see DNF if it stay in 3DR's hands. Have you forgotten how long this game has been in "development"

Shut. The Hell. Up.


This whole basically confirms what I was starting to think went down. Take2 wanted to get their hands on the Duke IP in whatever monetary deal was going down, and 3DR wasnt about to give it all up for what little measly amount was being offered.

Take 2 was in the wrong here. 3D Realms clearly had a nearly finished game, and it was a matter of pride for them to be able to finish it with dignity. After all the years of struggling up hill to finally finish this game, and the damn near certainty they were CLOSE this time, this was a cold freaking move on Take2's part, and it WILL bite them in the ass.

[ShXIII]

Commando Nukem, on May 18 2009, 08:37 PM, said:

Shut. The Hell. Up.


This whole basically confirms what I was starting to think went down. Take2 wanted to get their hands on the Duke IP in whatever monetary deal was going down, and 3DR wasnt about to give it all up for what little measly amount was being offered.

Take 2 was in the wrong here. 3D Realms clearly had a nearly finished game, and it was a matter of pride for them to be able to finish it with dignity. After all the years of struggling up hill to finally finish this game, and the damn near certainty they were CLOSE this time, this was a cold freaking move on Take2's part, and it WILL bite them in the ass.

Yeah ok I really see TT getting bit in the ass from 3DR fucking everyone over for so many years

[BxB402]

ShXIII, on May 18 2009, 07:41 PM, said:

Yeah ok I really see TT getting bit in the ass from 3DR fucking everyone over for so many years

I don't know what kind of shitty game fan you are to get so pissed that they want to do a game right instead of quickly pumping out some crap like too many devs do today.

With all the good games out to play now...I am willing to wait as long as it takes to get DNF....i'm sure a lot of us are. 3DR got boned in this whole thing, no matter how long it's been since the game was announced. There is no excuse for what Take 2 has apparantly done.

You are just an impatient little snot that apparantly didn't read the press release very well, do yourself a favor and STFU before you look like more of a jackass.

[Reaper_Man]

BxB402, on May 18 2009, 08:47 PM, said:

I don't know what kind of shitty game fan you are to get so pissed that they want to do a game right instead of quickly pumping out some crap like too many devs do today.

Easy. He's a diehard Halo / Grand Theft Auto fan. More concerned about quantity than quality.

[MusicallyInspired]

Lol @ thread.

[A Number One]

Just a disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer and I don't even play one on TV.

According to the principles of basic political and legal bargaining, there are three things you ask for at the bargaining table
1) The thing(s) you really want
2) The thing(s) you're willing to compromise on
3) The thing(s) you'd love to get, but you're pretty sure you won't

You always, always, always lead with #3 and you pretty much expect that one to get knocked down. By setting a "high bar" at the outset, your other demands are supposed to look far more reasonable by comparison.

So what did Take Two lead with? The request for an injunction to freeze and obtain a copy of the source code. They probably knew they wouldn't get that. To that end, their failure to get this injunction is a minor victory in comparison to what's left. So now the question is: what is it they really want in categories 1 and 2?

Is it the Duke franchise? Maybe... we know they offered to buy it in terms that were "unacceptable" to 3D Realms. Is it the closing of the loophole where 3D Realms can sell the game through direct distribution? That's also a possibility, since Steam and other similar services are becoming more and more of a viable solution for making money.

Only time will tell as this thing begins to work its way through the legal system.

Sadly, we can probably kiss goodbye the idea that the game will continue to be worked on in the meantime in any way. 3D Realms doesn't have employees to do the work, and no one else is going to touch this mess with a ten foot pole, so there won't be any heroes to save the day here.

One wonders... even if 3D Realms wins this and walks away with damages (and I don't even know if that's possible in this case), will this mess take so long that George will decide the tech is too outdated and the project needs to start over yet again? Who knows...

[Ramen4ever]

Development time is irrelevant. No one was forcing anyone to wait. If you chose to wait, that's your own thing. Only people who cannot think for themselves jump on the "long development cycle" bandwagon. Everyone knows, stop preaching to the choir. That's for you shXIII.

If take 2 tried to rip 3dr off and take the IP, they had every right to tell them off.

Also, I don't recall Take2 guaranteeing DNF's release provided they win.

[formerlyTodd]

Someone over at the 3DR boards posted an interesting thought: Take 2 might have gotten in the way of someone making an investment in 3DR, by way of that lawsuit.

If TT did that - albeit inadvertently - and has little or no legal basis for the lawsuit itself, they might instead be liable for damages.

I wonder if that's worth 5 mil in damages

Anyhow IANL & my .000002. And to the obvious trolls in here - move on assholes.

-vag

[Sinisterambo]

ShXIII, on May 19 2009, 01:35 AM, said:

my mistake i thought this site was about DNF and not about bending over for 3dr

So you'd bend over for Duke?

Good job you've got a big ass to soften the blow from the mighty boot!

[Grigory_oc]

Just my supposition... May be the game is already 95% complete, so the temporary stoppage of development is not so fatal. I suppose that guys in 3dr were clever enough to expect the problems with take 2 in good time. And so they may have predetermined the push in development, making themselves able to fire huge team and then finish the game in a short...
If the understanding with take 2 was lost unexpectedly, the break in development is unplanned, shorten of a dev tram size is a forced measure and all that may cause a great delay again (((

[Reaper_Man]

The game isn't 95% complete.

[Yenji]

This is why it is good to be an independent developer eh? You don't have to deal with this kind of drama then.

So if they are reforming the company I wonder what will happen to their forums over there

[dino]

i hope take two drops somehow out and doesn't get to see a single penny. such behaviour shouldn't be encouraged.

[Drazula]

Yes, this is a Duke fansite, but we also have to keep a little common sense. It wasn't Take 2 that screwed up DNF it was 3DR. It wasn't Take 2 that took twelve years and still had an incomplete game, it was 3DR. It wasn't Take 2 that cost all 3DR employees their jobs, it was George and Scott.

As people go, George seems like a very nice guy. But as a game developer he leaves a lot to be desired. He lacks vision and focus. Anyone who says he (or 3DR) knows what they are doing, is a bit delusional.

Think about this: 3DR started before Epic. They had a franchise that was at least as good as Unreal (I would say much better). Yet they went under while Epic is a billion dollar company. Why? It's not bad luck, it is mismanagement. You can't blame Take 2 for that.

[Grigory_oc]

msleeper, on May 19 2009, 05:49 AM, said:

The game isn't 95% complete.

Who knows exactly...? But... yes, after all it is hard to believe in somthing like "95" ))). If it was real - there must be information about forthcoming release and so on... Probably something between 50 and 80%.

[Reaper_Man]

It was officially stated by Joe that the game is somewhere between 1% and 100% completed. Anything else is speculation - period.

[Ramen4ever]

They're a big company they won't simply bite and let go. .. unless their case gets thrown out. But even then, I would suspect that they would still try to get something out of those publishing rights.

[dino]

who determines how long the development may or may not take? Just because others have something done in 2-4 years doen't mean they work better or faster. You also need to consider how many people are working on a title at a time.

As long as the title isn't officially terminated they haven't really screwed up per say. I would consider screwing up as total failure which would basicly mean not being able to finalize the title.

Yes I agree that the development took too long, just the fact that it had to be reworked kinda left a bad taste in ones mouth but if they felt that the title wasn't good enough then so be it. Rather 1 outstanding title than 2 regular/somewhat decent titles.

[Babe]

ShXIII, on May 18 2009, 05:23 PM, said:

Wrong..... STOP BEING SO BLIND TO THE FACTS!!!! Take two offered to take the original development team TO ACTUALLY FINISH THE GAME. 3DR said no its there fucking fault the developers lost there job and DNF once again gets the inevitable delayed

Check out what Take 2 has offered before jumping in Take 2's defence.

Quote

Take-Two's proposal was unacceptable to 3DR for many reasons, including no upfront money, no guarantee minimum payment, and no guarantee to complete the DNF game.

You think 3DR will give Take 2 DNF when they are NOT promising to finish it ? And you think 3DR will give Take 2 the employees without a gurantee minimum payment ?

[Grigory_oc]

Drazula, on May 19 2009, 05:55 AM, said:

Yes, this is a Duke fansite, but we also have to keep a little common sense. It wasn't Take 2 that screwed up DNF it was 3DR. It wasn't Take 2 that took twelve years and still had an incomplete game, it was 3DR. It wasn't Take 2 that cost all 3DR employees their jobs, it was George and Scott.

As people go, George seems like a very nice guy. But as a game developer he leaves a lot to be desired. He lacks vision and focus. Anyone who says he (or 3DR) knows what they are doing, is a bit delusional.

Think about this: 3DR started before Epic. They had a franchise that was at least as good as Unreal (I would say much better). Yet they went under while Epic is a billion dollar company. Why? It's not bad luck, it is mismanagement. You can't blame Take 2 for that.

I don't blame anybody. I'm a little bit sad - the years go by and the game still is not released. Take 2 have it's own interests, they paid several millions and it is reasonable that they want something in return. And George probably thinks first of all about the creation process (or may be just absorbed in very deep and don't fully realize how the things are going...), not the money and profits. Often the process itself is more interesting than reaping of the fruits. The development was several times delayed and this complicates the issue, the finalizing. It's clear that GB isn’t really practical thinking. Ideally we need a man who care a lot about the creating of a really good game, but at the same time can provide efficient management and realize how to get more money for the expansion/acceleration.

[Thndr]

Quote

Take-Two's proposal was unacceptable to 3DR for many reasons, including no upfront money, no guarantee minimum payment, and no guarantee to complete the DNF game.

Sounds like they might've scrapped the original crew and without months of training a new crew, scrap DNF as well if they deal went through.
Business is business, and if they were planning on finishing the game, they would've sweetened the pot for 3DR so the could guarantee the sale of the IP and DNF to T2, therefor guaranteeing the game would be made, and swiftly. (as they have the power to do so)

Grigory_oc, on May 18 2009, 10:32 PM, said:

Take 2 have it's own interests, they paid several millions and it is reasonable that they want something in return.

Technically T2 did get something in return: The contract for exclusive publishing rights for Duke Nukem Forever.
---

Also, I find the arguing that 3DR is practically the devil stupid. Along with the whining dumbasses saying "GIVE US THE GAME, FUCK 3DR." They are just failing to realise that everyone wants the damn game.
Sure, we all admit that 3DR was rather irresponsible for hyping the game and not having it done after all these years, restarting twice. Sure we would like an awesome 1st party Duke game by 3DR, a proper sequel to DN3D.
But can we fault 3DR for them wanting to make the best damn game they could? Can we fault them for going quality over quantity? Do you want Nuke Dukem, the boxer from New York to fight robot alien scum? Or do you want Duke Nukem, the badass from LA, to kick the shit out of aliens, robots, alien robots, and robot aliens, all while shitting down their necks?
Hell, the only thing I can really fault 3DR on is being slow as fuck. (Granted I can give them some leniency for starting with new engines and trying to keep up with the times.)


Just because you're selfish and don't care whats best for everyone doesn't mean you're right. So just get over the fact that DNF is now delayed. Hell, if T2 does get DNF (and plans on MAYBE finishing it), there will be even MORE delay as T2 will have to hire people, train them on the engine, look at the bugs, fix the bugs, test, ect. Rolling out an entire line to do all that takes a few months just to get it started. (While 3DR already has an entire system setup and the know it works.)

[Yenji]

To me the team looked kind of small for a game in today's world. I can see a vicious cycle of a small team having to constantly go back and update items as they become outdated. Not to mention it must be frustrating to constantly go back and redo your work - even more so if nothing was wrong with it in the first place.

Games today seem about as elaborate as movies are. They likely tried to do too much with the resources they had available.

Personally I would have loved a duke game based on the 2001 trailer and then a squeal based on their current story line.

[Danukem]

I just gave the 3DR press release a careful read. As far as I can tell, this is the part most relevant to the lawsuit:

Quote

Take-Two never paid 3DR advances or any signing bonus or any other funds related to DNF, up until July 2008, at which time they paid $2.5m in connection with another agreement for an unannounced game. This is the sum total Take-Two has paid 3DR in connection with DNF. Take-Two claims that they paid $12m to GT Interactive/Infogrames to acquire the publishing rights for the DNF game. To be clear, 3DR was not a party to that transaction and did not receive any money from it.

The stuff that comes after is mostly about negotations with Take Two on an agreement that never materialized, so it isn't relevant.

3DR does admit that it received the $2.5m, but it isn't clear whether all of that money was for DNF. They say that were paid the money "in connection with another agreement". Does that mean that part of the $2.5m was for the other game, or does it mean that all of the $2.5m was for DNF, and there was other money given to them for the other game which they aren't telling us about? Also, while they say at the end that the lawsuit is "without merit", they don't say anything further about the $2.5m and what strings may have been attached to it. So even by 3DR's own account, it's not at all clear that they are off the hook. $2.5m isn't much as compared with the total development costs, but it could be enough to push them into bankruptcy for all we know.

Also, they mention the $12m that T2 paid to GT. I'm not sure how that could be relevant to the current suit, but the fact that they bring it up and deny that 3DR was a party to it or profited from it (which is believable) shows they are concerned about it.

[Ramen4ever]

DNF is announced so an unannounced game is most likely to be a sequel or expansion. Otherwise it wouldn't pertain to DNF.

[----]

ShXIII, on May 18 2009, 05:35 PM, said:

my mistake i thought this site was about DNF and not about bending over for 3dr

You once said you didn't care anymore. Can you finally make it come true, please?

[PokeThePower]

Commando Nukem, on May 18 2009, 07:37 PM, said:

Take 2 was in the wrong here. 3D Realms clearly had a nearly finished game, and it was a matter of pride for them to be able to finish it with dignity. After all the years of struggling up hill to finally finish this game, and the damn near certainty they were CLOSE this time, this was a cold freaking move on Take2's part, and it WILL bite them in the ass.

Since when is Take 2 OBLIGATED to pay to finish the project, especially after the history? Considering Take 2's financials haven't been so hot recently they can't just throw money anywhere and it's pretty clear they calculated what they felt they were willing to give and take based on *their* circumstances. Obviously, for whatever reason, it wasn't worth it to them to agree to the deal that 3DR wanted, and it wasn't worth it to 3DR to take the deal 2k offered.

The fact is you don't trust ANY money until it is agreed to on a contract, and even then you have to be wary until it's actually in your bank account. It is the responsibility of the head of a studio to ensure they have the funding necessary to continue operations. It is not 2k's responsibility. And if 3DR wound up in an agreement that prevented them from getting funding from anywhere else without 2k's approval (which I don't have any reason to think that happened), that's their fault for getting into that agreement. We don't know what their agreements are but you can NEVER blame a different company for not choosing to fund another company. There were exactly two people responsible for ensuring 3DR's solvency and that is the owners of 3D Realms.

Take 2 was never obligated to fund DNF so they can't be in the wrong for voluntarily choosing to not fund DNF no matter how much we'd really really like to see it.

They may be in the wrong with the lawsuit, but it was 3DR's responsibility to find funding however they could and nobody else. It is Take 2's right to change the terms at the last minute, that's the nature of business... this is why contracts exists and why if it's not in a contract, you can't base the entire future of your company on it, and even then you better have some backup plans.

Take 2 may have not behaved the way we would like, but it is NOT Take 2's fault that 3DR is down to nobody and DNF is likely toast.

[Iggy]

Holy shit, just got out of bed just to see a ton of new things has happened. To add my own miniscule opinion, I would utterly love to see DNF get finished and released, whether it's done by 3D Realms or another company.

Perhaps a good idea for someone to write a summary of this mess when it's all over? Could be a good article for Duke4.net.

[Striker]

Ramen4ever, on May 18 2009, 09:55 PM, said:

Development time is irrelevant. No one was forcing anyone to wait. If you chose to wait, that's your own thing. Only people who cannot think for themselves jump on the "long development cycle" bandwagon. Everyone knows, stop preaching to the choir. That's for you shXIII.

If take 2 tried to rip 3dr off and take the IP, they had every right to tell them off.

Also, I don't recall Take2 guaranteeing DNF's release provided they win.

Quoted for the fucking truth. Good going man.

Besides, nothing is 100% certain, so shXIII needs to stop spewing mindless verbal diarrhea shit.