[axl]

Okay, just found out a small thing that keeps bothering me.

In the PC version of Duke Nukem 3D (both 1.3d and atomic), the seats in the Stadium map are flat. I always found this a bit of lazy design as it would look better with slopes. The PSX version "corrected" this and made slopes (bleachers). The N64 version also modified it to a more complete stadium.

Now as I'm reading the official "Duke Nukem 3D Atomic Edition Strategies and Secrets" guide by Jonathan Mendoza for the PC version, I was baffled to see 2 screenshots of the PC stadium map with bleachers / slopes. And moreover, in the guide, he explains to use these as cover strategy:

"if you manage to climb as high as you can in the bleachers, you will also have succeeded in severly limiting the Emperor's range".

So am I missing here something? Are there more versions of this map?

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[hismasterplan]

Always thought the same thing.

[Hendricks266]

Cool, that looks like the beta version which had collapsing buildings around the perimeter.

[icecoldduke]

I always hated the way Stadium looked in the final game, I personally like the look in the article a lot better; although I understand why the final design was chosen.

[MusicallyInspired]

Stadium was the absolute laziest map in the entire game. The entire franchise. Maybe they just wanted to focus on the arena for battle instead of flashy stuff that may or may not get in the way, but I was pretty disappointed by the great flat floating rectangle in the sky. They didn't even make a wall around it.

[icecoldduke]

 MusicallyInspired, on 26 July 2017 - 08:34 AM, said:

Stadium was the absolute laziest map in the entire game. The entire franchise. Maybe they just wanted to focus on the arena for battle instead of flashy stuff that may or may not get in the way, but I was pretty disappointed by the great flat floating rectangle in the sky. They didn't even make a wall around it.

Completely agree. Stadium was a terrible map, but what even made it worse, it was the map for the final fucking boss fight :/.

[axl]

 Hendricks266, on 26 July 2017 - 07:57 AM, said:

Cool, that looks like the beta version which had collapsing buildings around the perimeter.

Aha. That's interesting. So why the change ? It's an Allen Blum map. Are there any commentaries for this map on World Tour ?

[NNC]

I hope one day Allen Blum announces a proper remake of this map. (Well, a remix could be great for many other maps, like even E1L1), but Stadium is a lazy hackwork, and it calls for that.

[Never Forgotten]

 axl, on 26 July 2017 - 07:12 AM, said:

In the PC version of Duke Nukem 3D (both 1.3d and atomic), the seats in the Stadium map are flat. I always found this a bit of lazy design as it would look better with slopes. The PSX version "corrected" this and made slopes (bleachers). The N64 version also modified it to a more complete stadium.

If anyone here remembers my horrid maps I made years ago, I remade Stadium, well I took Stadium and made modifications to it. One thing that always bothered me about it was the way the bleachers were, so I made them angled. You can download the map if you want, it's not that bad, but I wouldn't recommend playing my old maps, they suck really bad... It's under the forum called Never Forgotten, which is the name I gave my level pack.... just thought I'd dredge up some bad memories for some of you.

[NNC]

A little offtopic here, but the best Stadium map IMHO was the first boss level of the Last Reaction episode. It had a pretty cool atmosphere with some shops, bowling room, cinema etc., I loved that. You also saw the Stadium's entrance in the penultimate level which was one of the coolest maps in the entire TC,

[Loke]

I've always liked the N64 version which I also based my Stadium Redux map heavily on.

[DavoX]

My take on it




About the seats being flat... I'm pretty sure it's to make the Cycloid easier so beat. They were probably getting clobbered by splash damage from the rockets. If the seats are flat the rockets just fly to the skybox.

[MusicallyInspired]

Stadium 64 was waaaaay better. I just kind of wish you could explore the rest of it like you can in multiplayer. The DNF 2013 mod rendition was also fantastic. Especially with Norvak's music.

[Fox]

I am not sure if they are supposed to be flat seats going by the cutscene

[Lunick]

Don't forget the Stadium picture TX posted

[Fox]

[icecoldduke]

Does anyone know why they went with the shitty design for the PC version of the game?

[CryptKiller]

For such barebones level, everyone seems to remember it.

I guess slopes were removed because they made dukematches too easy, you could kill players with missed rockets' splash damage while in final version there's much more area to evade the missiles.

[OpenMaw]

Well, I doubt it was for performance reasons.


My assumption was always, they simply ran out of time and didn't get to go back and really finese that map into something better. the splash damage argument makes some sense, but surely there were some better alternatives to give the level some more detail and strategy. As it is all you have to do is just keep moving and shooting and you'll beat the boss with almost no effort exerted. Rather sad the ending battle is such a curbstomp.

[Mike Norvak]

Mhh yeah, I haven't played World Tour yet and the final Boss, but I think the problem is the Cycloid it self, should have more a way to dodge attacks and/or more hit points, I know it could have been more challenging if the map has a different layout, but given the circunstances he's definitely an anticlimatic Boss.

[Fox]

The cutscene looks a lot more like the early version posted by Lunick than the final product.

[axl]

 Commando Nukem, on 27 July 2017 - 10:30 AM, said:

As it is all you have to do is just keep moving and shooting and you'll beat the boss with almost no effort exerted. Rather sad the ending battle is such a curbstomp.

True... just circle strafing and you win without any effort. Then again... this also applies to the Overlord and to some extent even the Alien Queen. In fact most bosses in those 90s FPS are rather pushovers... (The Spider Mastermind in Doom, Chernobog in Blood, Zilla in Shadow Warrior, ...).

The Cyberdemon in Doom and the Battlelord in Duke 3D are the exceptions that come to mind.

[PsychoGoatee]

 CryptKiller, on 27 July 2017 - 09:00 AM, said:

For such barebones level, everyone seems to remember it.

I guess slopes were removed because they made dukematches too easy, you could kill players with missed rockets' splash damage while in final version there's much more area to evade the missiles.

Indeed, it's a simple map but it's memorable. I can see why people don't like it, but before reading this topic today it never crossed my mind that a bunch of fans thought it was shitty. I love the map, it's not as detailed or intricate as other maps, but gameplay wise as a somewhat abstract take on a stadium, I never questioned it. It rules. I also like it better than the 64 version, though I actually played Duke 64 first, having the open air gives it a feel that is better than the semi-covered dome and whatnot to me, and the extra details and stuff don't make it more fun to play for me.

Not all maps should be just a big open space, but this one works for me. It's the icing on the cake of the best collection of maps in any game.

[MusicallyInspired]

You're just on a roll for controversial opinions today aren't you.

[KaijuTurtle]

I think it would have been cooler with the sloped seating, like in the Guidebook, but I actually agree with PsychoGoatee here. It's simple, and it's memorable. The idea of it being lazy never even occurred to me prior to this thread. You rise up onto the field and boom there's this big motherfucker and it's go time. I love it.

[MusicallyInspired]

Could have at least made some inaccessible distant buildings or something instead of just relying on the parallax sky texture. I appreciate simplicity of the design for sure. It gets right to the point. It's just a little TOO simple even for the time.

[king karl]

 MusicallyInspired, on 26 July 2017 - 08:34 AM, said:

Stadium was the absolute laziest map in the entire game. The entire franchise. Maybe they just wanted to focus on the arena for battle instead of flashy stuff that may or may not get in the way, but I was pretty disappointed by the great flat floating rectangle in the sky. They didn't even make a wall around it.

I think a main philosophy in oldschool game design is "build the last level first". They did the same thing in doom 1 and 2 also.....notice that hte ast levels in all old games are very simplistic

in reverse they built the first level last so they could show the player all the interesting tricks they had learned and really reel them in with good level design

its just a marketing strategy

[OpenMaw]

While there might be some truth in that, they could very easily have gone back later and added onto or polished Stadium up before release. Unless they simply did not have the time to do that.

[king karl]

 Commando Nukem, on 01 August 2017 - 02:12 PM, said:

While there might be some truth in that, they could very easily have gone back later and added onto or polished Stadium up before release. Unless they simply did not have the time to do that.

I doubt they had time.....but it really doesn't need it anyways. I mean its a pretty memorable and enjoyable fight right? but clearly 3DR agrees with you because of all the different versions of the map we see in later games

[TerminX]

They polished it up a bit and then reverted all the changes because it didn't really work out.