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Shadow Warrior: Deadly Kiss restoration project  "No, the project is not dead."

#301

View PostMetHy, on 24 September 2020 - 11:18 PM, said:

If you ask me the only real offenders are level 8: Zilla's Villa and level 9: Monastery. Pretty much everything about those two levels scream of a pre-DN3D era of FPS level design, and if my memory from the betas is correct, at least Monastery is indeed a very old map.

Hara-Kiri Harbor and Raider of the Lost Wang, despite having uninspired key use (get a key to open a room with a key in it and repeat) still manage to feel very much like true Build era maps thanks, among other things, to their stronger thematic cohesion, the way they're anchored deeper into realistic design cues, and their more awe-some use of effects.

Every other level in the game is great if you ask me, but my favourite must be Water Torture and the impressive feeling of 3D and grandeur that emanates from it despite only being a few corridors and a few rooms big.


It's kinda interesting when we talk about Duke levels, the older ones seem like the fan favourites. You know, the ones originate in LameDuke or in one of the 1995 betas (episode 1, most of episode 2, Freeway, Derelict etc.)

SW seems like the opposite, the older ones are the biggest offenders, and the later Duke-style levels like Bath House, Floating Fortress or Water Torture are the favourites.

The biggest difference however is the level designers. SW didn't have the talent of Allen Blum. I think the guy would have made that game legendary. Keith Schuler was good, in fact very good. The levels above are all by him, also the last two maps in the demo episode are mostly by him. He is no perfect however, he kinda lacked some of the grandeur vision of Blum (just look at the cheap Unfriendly Skies level, would you buy a ticket on such an "airport"), and he was more of a follower, than a leader. If you think about it, his best levels are inspired by Blum's work on Duke, while levels which needed new ideas failed (Auto Maul for example). I think he is pretty much equal to Levelord in talent.

And then, we have Stephen Cole. I'm sorry, but the guy was not good. He made a good work with Zilla's Construction and Hara-Kiri Harbor, but most of his maps were, as oasiz said, cheap "pagoda techbases" with lots of cramped, uninteresting rooms, and a terrible keycard placement with random rooms dragging the gameplay unnecessarily.

Wanton's leveldesign is inconsistent because too many people worked on it. I always said the more people involved, the less satisfying the result will be. I like for example Matt Harris' maps (and I particularly like the first secret level, Redwood Forest, it came with some real surprises), but Cho Yan Wong or Tyler Larsen for example were meh. The airplane map got a job for Charlie Wiederhold, and it was amazing back then, but it didn't age well due to its annoying gameplay and its worn out novelty.

This post has been edited by The Watchtower: 29 October 2020 - 12:58 PM

0

User is online   Phredreeke 

#302

...no love for Crista Forest's Fishing Village?
2

#303

View PostPhredreeke, on 29 October 2020 - 04:35 PM, said:

...no love for Crista Forest's Fishing Village?


I said it many times it's my favourite map in Twin Dragon. Certainly one that is more memorable than the others on the pack.
0

User is offline   MetHy 

#304

View PostThe Watchtower, on 29 October 2020 - 12:55 PM, said:

It's kinda interesting when we talk about Duke levels, the older ones seem like the fan favourites. You know, the ones originate in LameDuke or in one of the 1995 betas (episode 1, most of episode 2, Freeway, Derelict etc.)

SW seems like the opposite, the older ones are the biggest offenders, and the later Duke-style levels like Bath House, Floating Fortress or Water Torture are the favourites.

The biggest difference however is the level designers. SW didn't have the talent of Allen Blum. I think the guy would have made that game legendary. Keith Schuler was good, in fact very good. The levels above are all by him, also the last two maps in the demo episode are mostly by him. He is no perfect however, he kinda lacked some of the grandeur vision of Blum (just look at the cheap Unfriendly Skies level, would you buy a ticket on such an "airport"), and he was more of a follower, than a leader. If you think about it, his best levels are inspired by Blum's work on Duke, while levels which needed new ideas failed (Auto Maul for example). I think he is pretty much equal to Levelord in talent.

And then, we have Stephen Cole. I'm sorry, but the guy was not good. He made a good work with Zilla's Construction and Hara-Kiri Harbor, but most of his maps were, as oasiz said, cheap "pagoda techbases" with lots of cramped, uninteresting rooms, and a terrible keycard placement with random rooms dragging the gameplay unnecessarily.

Wanton's leveldesign is inconsistent because too many people worked on it. I always said the more people involved, the less satisfying the result will be. I like for example Matt Harris' maps (and I particularly like the first secret level, Redwood Forest, it came with some real surprises), but Cho Yan Wong or Tyler Larsen for example were meh. The airplane map got a job for Charlie Wiederhold, and it was amazing back then, but it didn't age well due to its annoying gameplay and its worn out novelty.



This discussion should probably be cut and pasted in "Shadow Warrior Corner".

I think Keith Schuler is great. It is true that none of his maps have the "awe" factor and scale of some of Blum's levels or even The Abyss, but honestly that's not a problem with KS, that's a problem with Shadow Warrior as a whole.

Apart maybe from Floating Fortress, none of the maps do, and the lack of meaninful outdoor area is a common issue throughout the entire game. I'd even say this about Sumo Sky Palace, the player only truly realizes he's on a floating rock when going down that ladder leading below, I think the place lacks an outdoor area to start the map with that truly shows what the place is (and I don't think the small outdoor court with the first key does that either).
Then you have maps like Zilla's Villa and Monastery which alternate between indoor/outdoor areas but the outdoor areas are super confusing. Are they outdoor courts inside the place or are they outside the place? It doesn't help that they all have the same height as the indoor places around and uses the same wall textures, so they just feel like another room instead of proper outdoor places that could help set the place both in theme and in scale.
Also, Zilla's Villa has that amazing outdoor place at the end but it's an unreachable place, from my point of view the player should have started there instead, let him see the entire villa with his eyes including the rooftop he'll get to access later on.
Then you have Raider of the Lost Wang, it does start with an outdoor area but it's kind of a clusterfuck. The temple has what looks like a main entrance in the middle but it doesn't lead anywhere, plus the entire front is hidden by rocks and more rocks so you don't get any good view at it, then you have 2 side entrances but they're half natural looking so you never know where the nature stops and where the temple starts.

So in short, the lack of awe-some scale and view is a common problem in almost the entire game and I don't think it's right to blame KS for it especially since Bath House is one of the few maps that do manage to give a proper sense of scale with its starting outdoor area.
It is also worth noting that some of the levels had better plans in that regard when looking at the beta versions, for instance Sumo Sky Palace had a much bigger outdoor area at some point that really helped get a sense of the scale of the place, and so did Airport, that you mentionned.
Airport used to make a lot more "sense" realisticly speaking in the beta versions; but all this stuff got cut, probably to wrap up the game in time. Airport became more like a 2nd version of Seppuku Station in many ways, including not caring that the layout made sense; but instead making sure everything flows and interconnects properly with height level variations for dynamism; and honestly, it's probably a better Build level for that than what it would have become had they kept the realistic layout of the beta version. That layout made more sense realisticly speaking but it doesn't seem as practical for gameplay in my opinion.
One thing I don't understand though is why they cut the cockpit of the crashed plane, I don't think there is anything wrong with it and it could have been perfectly functional except for the fact that you couldn't see the outdoor from the cockpit itself.

Anyway - my point wanted to be that I think KS is awesome. I could be wrong but with the information we got but from the betas and everything I think he's one of the level designers that tried the most to experiment with things like ROR and effects. I think it shows that he used to be a programmer and the fact that he is the one that wrote the official mapping FAQs is probably a testatement to all that.
I think a lot of the flaws in level design may be attributed to the "cut and wrap up" phase; and despite nitpicking a lot about Cole's levels, I do think Cole was a good designer and had plenty of his moments as well.

This post has been edited by MetHy: 30 October 2020 - 12:40 AM

3

User is offline   the_raven 

#305

So, how's progress on DK?
Also, did I get this right? The protagonist of DK is a Chun-Li parody and not Lo Wang? :huh:

This post has been edited by the_raven: 13 December 2020 - 06:04 AM

0

User is offline   Player Lin 

#306

View Postthe_raven, on 13 December 2020 - 06:04 AM, said:

Also, did I get this right? The protagonist of DK is a Chun-Li parody and not Lo Wang? :huh:


More like parody/insult of Lo Wang because she was named "No Wang".
1

User is offline   jkas789 

#307

View PostPlayer Lin, on 13 December 2020 - 06:54 AM, said:

More like parody/insult of Lo Wang because she was named "No Wang".


The more I find out about Deadly Kiss the better it gets. Please, please tell me that name is still a thing! It does not have to be No Wang explicitly. It can be Noe Wang, or Nou Wang, or Noi Wang, whatever. Just keep the intent of the "No" and the "Wang" in there.

This post has been edited by jkas789: 13 December 2020 - 07:49 AM

1

User is offline   MrFlibble 

#308

View PostPlayer Lin, on 13 December 2020 - 06:54 AM, said:

More like parody/insult of Lo Wang because she was named "No Wang".

Why insult? It just expands upon the same pun as the original name. Yeah, it sounds incredibly crude if you think about it (and I guess these days, someone's bound to find hideous misogyny in it) but hey. It's no worse than the "Titsubishi" logo etc.
2

User is offline   Jimmy 

  • 1776 World Wide

#309

If there were updates someone would have posted them already.
2

User is offline   jkas789 

#310

View PostMrFlibble, on 13 December 2020 - 07:57 AM, said:

Why insult? It just expands upon the same pun as the original name. Yeah, it sounds incredibly crude if you think about it (and I guess these days, someone's bound to find hideous misogyny in it) but hey. It's no worse than the "Titsubishi" logo etc.


Oh boy, I can already see the shitstorm coming from the name. Why can't we have nice crude things anymore...
1

User is offline   Hendricks266 

  • Weaponized Autism

  #311

Her name is Tenshi Youka Wang (which was misspelled as Tensi Yoka in the original materials). No Wang is something her adversaries call her.
2

User is offline   jkas789 

#312

View PostHendricks266, on 13 December 2020 - 06:13 PM, said:

Her name is Tenshi Youka Wang (which was misspelled as Tensi Yoka in the original materials). No Wang is something her adversaries call her.


So.. 8th Angel King (Queen?)?

I know Tenshi can be translated to angel in english (which I mean, female name makes sense) and that Wang roughly means King. However my weeb skills and my google-fu only gives me 8th (as in literally 8th) as a english translation/meaning for youka. Cool name though. Definitely better than what I have seen in some manga and anime (well not really but I have seen worse).
1

User is offline   Player Lin 

#313

View PostMrFlibble, on 13 December 2020 - 07:57 AM, said:

Why insult? It just expands upon the same pun as the original name. Yeah, it sounds incredibly crude if you think about it (and I guess these days, someone's bound to find hideous misogyny in it) but hey. It's no worse than the "Titsubishi" logo etc.


When Hendricks ask me about names of DK in PM a while ago about if I know something and he tells me that No Wang name was "insult" to Lo Wang.

As an Taiwanese that know Chinese and some Japanese, that name just totally no sense to me.
But since it's what "her adversaries" called her so well, that's still a valid "insult" if you ask me.:P

So her real name is Tenshi Youka Wang, okay that was explained why I didn't find anything about Yoka, but Tenshi yield some results like what jkas789 said, it means Angel in Japanese(also, in Chinese, it's means Son of Heaven, a title of the Emperor of China.
Oh and Youka was not a bad name for Japanese too.

This post has been edited by Player Lin: 18 December 2020 - 03:02 AM

1

User is offline   jkas789 

#314

View PostPlayer Lin, on 18 December 2020 - 02:54 AM, said:


So her real name is Tenshi Youka Wang, okay that was explained why I didn't find anything about Yoka, but Tenshi yield some results like what jkas789 said, it means Angel in Japanese(also, in Chinese, it's means Son of Heaven, a title of the Emperor of China.
Oh and Youka was not a bad name for Japanese too.


Oh boy the many meanings of Youka can be a problem. However I think the best to choose from would be the one that is made from the kanji is sun is flower.

So her name came be roughly translated to (and this is taking into account that AFAIK in Japanese surnames are mentioned first) King (Queen?) Angel of sunflowers (Wang Tenshi Youka)? Please someone correct if I'm wrong here, as I'm assuming that's how you would translate words into English.

Well that is definitely a weeb name.

This post has been edited by jkas789: 18 December 2020 - 03:47 AM

1

User is offline   the_raven 

#315

View PostPlayer Lin, on 13 December 2020 - 06:54 AM, said:

More like parody/insult of Lo Wang because she was named "No Wang".


View PostHendricks266, on 13 December 2020 - 06:13 PM, said:

Her name is Tenshi Youka Wang (which was misspelled as Tensi Yoka in the original materials). No Wang is something her adversaries call her.


But wasn't 'Wang' Lo Wang's personal name? Lo - family name, Wang - personal name.
I mean, his brother's name is Hung Lo (or Lo Hung, if you want to go with the Chinese naming rule). So then, other than humour or some easter egg, why would their sister not have 'Lo' somewhere in her name? Is she married?

This post has been edited by the_raven: 18 December 2020 - 03:50 AM

1

User is offline   Player Lin 

#316

View Postthe_raven, on 18 December 2020 - 03:50 AM, said:

But wasn't 'Wang' Lo Wang's personal name? Lo - family name, Wang - personal name.
I mean, his brother's name is Hung Lo (or Lo Hung, if you want to go with the Chinese naming rule).


If using western style, Lo is personal name and Wang is family name, since SW was made by 3DR, it most likely they'll using western style for his name.
(BTW, Trad. Chinese locale of SW 2013 was used western style for Lo Wang's name translation, not Chinese/Korean style -- family name first then personal name)

Lo and Wang are both famous Chinese family name so well(Wang was more famous than Lo for sure), not really sure about that but I would bet 3DR was intended using western style, sometimes Chinese/Korean style would cause confusing, even though western style would too...

Maybe Hendricks has more info about that...?


EDIT: No, I confused something, no, "Lo" should NOT be a famous Chinese family name, the closed one should be "Luo", but that one still less famous than Wang for sure.

So, based on this, Lo should just personal name in "Lo Wang"'s case for sure, even it's possible be family name but would be a rare case. :P

https://en.wikipedia...Family_Surnames

Also, at least two Wang in that list, different Chinese characters(and different means) for sure.
Most famous one : 王(Wang2/wáng or Wang4/wàng) - king or prosperity
And less famous one : 汪 (Wang1/wāng)

View Postjkas789, on 18 December 2020 - 03:46 AM, said:

So her name came be roughly translated to (and this is taking into account that AFAIK in Japanese surnames are mentioned first) King (Queen?) Angel of sunflowers (Wang Tenshi Youka)? Please someone correct if I'm wrong here, as I'm assuming that's how you would translate words into English.

Well that is definitely a weeb name.


Well, mixture both Chinese(Wang) and Japanese(Tenshi Youka) is very weird for whatever reasons...but why not, the SW universe already way, way too weird for both of us(Chinese/Taiwanese and Japenese)... :P

The difference of Wang Tenshi Youka or Tenshi Youka Wang is Chinese/Korean style or Western style to me, both valid and I don't see what's wrong with them.

Hell, even I prefer wrote my real (Chinese) name in Western style as my English name, and my username/nickname too, Lin is my family name.
I only use Chinese-style in very, very few cases(the recent one case was my TES5 child race character name -- a character based on my own creation and lore that based my childhood self --, and my Fallout 4 female character name LOL) and I don't have English-style name.

This post has been edited by Player Lin: 18 December 2020 - 07:49 AM

4

User is offline   jkas789 

#317

Honestly I default to your knowledge Lin. I'm just trying to understand the name out of curiosity (and well, I'm a fucking weeb and a huge SW fan) but given your background you input has more weight IMO.

I too found it weird that they use a combination of Chinese and Japanese words. I can kinda understand it though, for a foreigner it may have been difficult to differentiate. Kinda like when gringos think Guatemala is a mexican state.
1

User is offline   Player Lin 

#318

View Postjkas789, on 18 December 2020 - 07:06 AM, said:

Honestly I default to your knowledge Lin. I'm just trying to understand the name out of curiosity (and well, I'm a fucking weeb and a huge SW fan) but given your background you input has more weight IMO.

I too found it weird that they use a combination of Chinese and Japanese words. I can kinda understand it though, for a foreigner it may have been difficult to differentiate. Kinda like when gringos think Guatemala is a mexican state.


Shit I edited so many times on my previous post, not sure if you read my edited lines...

Thanks for that, I guess. LOL

Yeah, I know many(?) foreigners even see the whole Asia cultures were the same for whatever reasons, and mix them totally...when I saw those familiar things but totally went wrong/weird directions I just cannot stop unsaw them... :unsure:

But well, sometimes that just can't avoided... :(

This post has been edited by Player Lin: 18 December 2020 - 07:48 AM

1

User is offline   Hendricks266 

  • Weaponized Autism

  #319

Good discussion. You've all put more thought into these names than any of the original teams did. :D
7

User is online   Phredreeke 

#320

View PostPlayer Lin, on 18 December 2020 - 07:46 AM, said:

Yeah, I know many(?) foreigners even see the whole Asia cultures were the same for whatever reasons, and mix them totally...


The way I see it SW is a parody of the American portrayal of Asian culture (an example of this is the TV showing a caning, this being a reference to Michael Fay)
3

User is offline   Player Lin 

#321

View PostPhredreeke, on 18 December 2020 - 09:54 AM, said:

The way I see it SW is a parody of the American portrayal of Asian culture (an example of this is the TV showing a caning, this being a reference to Michael Fay)


Yeah, parody. I won't disagree that. :)

But still, it cannot prevent if one thinking outside of parody or believe it's like every Asian cultures will has that or some silly things in the game but actually is not...
0

User is offline   Jimmy 

  • 1776 World Wide

#322

I don't think a 90s BUILD FPS is causing people to think negatively of Asian cultures.
2

User is online   Phredreeke 

#323

Makes you think what Duke Nukem 3D makes people think about Americans
0

User is offline   jkas789 

#324

View PostPhredreeke, on 19 December 2020 - 10:37 AM, said:

Makes you think what Duke Nukem 3D makes people think about Americans



Meh, not that much. At the vey least in Mexico we've had years to be acclimatized to the "AMERICA, FUCK YEAH!" part of the USA.

Honestly it would be weird if you guys did not go on a rampage guns blazing. ;)
2

User is offline   Jimmy 

  • 1776 World Wide

#325

It's a family tradition.
5

User is offline   Player Lin 

#326

View PostJimmy, on 19 December 2020 - 10:22 AM, said:

I don't think a 90s BUILD FPS is causing people to think negatively of Asian cultures.


Well, it's hold true for you guys, but it actually caused some "arguments" in some of Asian countries(Japan, Chian/HK/Taiwan and maybe somewhere else).

But it's just minor and because those places didn't care Action FP Shooters back that time or more like care about its violence/sexy things so...yeah, no body really so care about cultures problems... I guess. :unsure: :P
0

User is offline   Master O 

#327

View PostPlayer Lin, on 20 December 2020 - 12:34 AM, said:

Well, it's hold true for you guys, but it actually caused some "arguments" in some of Asian countries(Japan, Chian/HK/Taiwan and maybe somewhere else).

But it's just minor and because those places didn't care Action FP Shooters back that time or more like care about its violence/sexy things so...yeah, no body really so care about cultures problems... I guess. :unsure: :P


That's interesting that Shadow Warrior caused controversy there, when Japanese fighting games routinely caricature and parody other races and nationalities.
3

User is offline   jkas789 

#328

We mexicans love to be represented. We love Speedy Gonzalez and there was an actual revolt when WB tried to remove it. In fact the controversy was so big that WB was forced to broadcast it again. Also when Coco came out it was an instant hit over here. Never mind the latino Mario.

Also KOF. There is a reason Angel was added to the game you know ;)

We love that shit.
3

User is offline   Jimmy 

  • 1776 World Wide

#329

View PostMaster O, on 20 December 2020 - 08:51 AM, said:

That's interesting that Shadow Warrior caused controversy there, when Japanese fighting games routinely caricature and parody other races and nationalities.

Yeah, sounds like bullshit to me honestly. The idea that Shadow Warrior is offensive is overblown and perpetuated by babies.

Coco is a masterpiece by the way.

This post has been edited by Jimmy: 20 December 2020 - 06:46 PM

2

User is offline   Player Lin 

#330

TBH, I don't really get those complaints, especially from those older, never playing games, closed mind ones... :unsure:

But really, who cares.

Japanese was weird, for whatever reasons...
1

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