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DNF #1
Duke 3D #1
So I actually never played Keen before. I had some downtime so I decided to buy the Steam Collection of them.
Is it just me or is episode 3 softlock city?
Commander Keen Corner "Recharge your Neural Stunner and get aboard the Bean-with-Bacon."
#92 Posted 26 August 2020 - 05:07 PM
Its been probably five or more years for me, but I can't remember having any technical problems. I'm pretty sure there was one area where the game could get broken though. Now that I think of it, it might have been Episode 2 that had the level that could be broken.
#93 Posted 26 August 2020 - 05:17 PM
I don't mean crashes, just to be clear. I mean unwinnable situations where progress (and in one case, suicide) is literally impossible. That kind of softlock.
This post has been edited by Ninety-Six: 26 August 2020 - 05:19 PM
#94 Posted 26 August 2020 - 07:07 PM
I distinctly remember an unwinnable situation with one of the big blue guys in some kind of wooden house. I don't remember if that was 2 or 3. I'm sure there were others, because I distinctly remember that being my only real problem with 2/3. Dreams also had the problem where you could easily place yourself in an unwinnable situation, probably why I never beat that one.
#95 Posted 26 August 2020 - 07:31 PM
Yeah I wasn't a fan of episode 2, either, albeit for entirely different reasons.
My first run of it ended in complete disaster when I reached the "final" stage (insofar as the term can be applied with the nonlinear map design). This was because of the purple things, I don't know what they are. I call them commanders even though they look nothing like the "boss" of episode 1 who was also called a commander. Whatever. The opening bit where they can jump at random and kill you.
Of course, the "trick" is to turn off the lights, which stops them from jumping. Which the game does a poor job of explaining. There's not really a point in the levels where its demonstrated on its own merit.
Sure, one of the elders tells you about it. In an entirely optional stage later in the episode, well past levels where that would be useful outside the levels near the end (not even the level itself has a lightswitch despite being swarming with the bastards). The elder is also at the very bottom of the level, again swarming with Vorticons, in a small room guarded by a vorticon and three of the little blue bastards that stun you. And the only other elder message was just flavor text about not killing the vorticons. And half of episode 1's messages were flavor too, rather than anything useful.
Is it really any wonder I decided it wasn't worth the effort and passed on? Super critical information that literally renders the final level impossible without it should never be guarded so tightly, nor look no different from non-essential information.
I know there's a light switch right at the start of the last level but given that at no point in the episode was it demonstrated to really do anything, outside of make it harder for me to see, it seemed way more like a detriment than necessary.
Sorry this turned into a rant. That was just...unpleasant. I'm hoping 4 and 5 are better(if I can ever get past this current infuriating military base level).
My first run of it ended in complete disaster when I reached the "final" stage (insofar as the term can be applied with the nonlinear map design). This was because of the purple things, I don't know what they are. I call them commanders even though they look nothing like the "boss" of episode 1 who was also called a commander. Whatever. The opening bit where they can jump at random and kill you.
Of course, the "trick" is to turn off the lights, which stops them from jumping. Which the game does a poor job of explaining. There's not really a point in the levels where its demonstrated on its own merit.
Sure, one of the elders tells you about it. In an entirely optional stage later in the episode, well past levels where that would be useful outside the levels near the end (not even the level itself has a lightswitch despite being swarming with the bastards). The elder is also at the very bottom of the level, again swarming with Vorticons, in a small room guarded by a vorticon and three of the little blue bastards that stun you. And the only other elder message was just flavor text about not killing the vorticons. And half of episode 1's messages were flavor too, rather than anything useful.
Is it really any wonder I decided it wasn't worth the effort and passed on? Super critical information that literally renders the final level impossible without it should never be guarded so tightly, nor look no different from non-essential information.
I know there's a light switch right at the start of the last level but given that at no point in the episode was it demonstrated to really do anything, outside of make it harder for me to see, it seemed way more like a detriment than necessary.
Sorry this turned into a rant. That was just...unpleasant. I'm hoping 4 and 5 are better
This post has been edited by Ninety-Six: 26 August 2020 - 07:37 PM
#96 Posted 26 August 2020 - 07:46 PM
Ninety-Six, on 26 August 2020 - 07:31 PM, said:
I'm hoping 4 and 5 are better (if I can ever get past this current infuriating military base level).
They are. Beyond a bit of obtuse level design I can't really think of anything wrong with them. Again, same issue, I haven't touched a Keen game in years. I'd say even 6 is pretty sweet, its really Dreams that has issues.
#97 Posted 26 August 2020 - 08:02 PM
Well the Steam collection doesn't have either Dreams or 6, so I guess I won't find out for a while. I'm not sure why they're not included, but.
#98 Posted 26 August 2020 - 10:07 PM
Ninety-Six, on 26 August 2020 - 08:02 PM, said:
Well the Steam collection doesn't have either Dreams or 6, so I guess I won't find out for a while. I'm not sure why they're not included, but.
Because Zenimax doesn't own the rights to Keen Dreams and the rights to Keen 6 are unknown or lost.
Keen Dreams is shareware though despite some of the efforts of a certain horrible person so feel free to find a download of that.
- The Sarien Encounter
-
#99 Posted 26 August 2020 - 10:14 PM
The rights to Dreams were bought by some guy who's selling it on the Switch right now. I think it used to be on Steam too but it was removed. The guy is a bit of a nut or so I hear. Keen 6 was a FormGen Retail release, according to Wikipedia. No idea why it's not on Steam. But then, id can't seem to sell Heretic 2, Hexen 2: Portals of Pravus, or some other games with their name on it for whatever reason. License issues suck for consumers.
EDIT: Ninja'd
EDIT: Ninja'd
This post has been edited by MusicallyInspired: 26 August 2020 - 10:14 PM
#100 Posted 26 August 2020 - 10:28 PM
Lunick, on 26 August 2020 - 10:07 PM, said:
Because Zenimax doesn't own the rights to Keen Dreams and the rights to Keen 6 are unknown or lost.
Keen Dreams is shareware though despite some of the efforts of a certain horrible person so feel free to find a download of that.
Keen Dreams is shareware though despite some of the efforts of a certain horrible person so feel free to find a download of that.
To be honest I'm even more confused now.
I believe you, but all the same I'm compelled to ask. My understanding of copyright is basic at best, but how can they own the IP and the main games, but not those two? I'll admit the case of Keen 6 is maybe not unique; after all as Duke fans we aren't strangers to rights weirdness with "expansions". Still, if dreams and 6 were id-developed then I'm not sure how they can not own that. Don't they still sell Return to Danger and Ultimate Challenge alongside Spear of Destiny? Those were FormGen expansions too, right?
Again, I'm not saying you're wrong, or that I disbelieve. I'm just legitimately trying to understand this particular copyright kerfuffle.
This post has been edited by Ninety-Six: 26 August 2020 - 10:47 PM
#101 Posted 26 August 2020 - 10:58 PM
Keen Dreams was developed for Soft Disk Software so despite at the time id Software owning the IP, that particular game is owned by Soft Disk. Even though Zenimax obtained the IP by now owning id Software, that didn't automatically give them the rights to Keen Dreams (and by extension Keen 6). Whatever deal that was made between Soft Disk must have been different to FormGen but also consider that Keen came before Wolf 3D and id might not have been as careful with IP ownership while developing Keen stuff.
#102 Posted 26 August 2020 - 11:09 PM
Lunick, on 26 August 2020 - 10:58 PM, said:
but also consider that Keen came before Wolf 3D and id might not have been as careful with IP ownership while developing Keen stuff.
Alright, fair enough.
Thanks for the clarification.
#103 Posted 26 August 2020 - 11:30 PM
In case I haven't posted before, first time I came into contact with Commander Keen games in early/mid 2000s, I played through the shareware games: Keen 1, 4 and 6 demo (they were included on those Top 101 Games CDs, there was also Keen Dreams but I never realized that as kid since the folder name may have been KDREAMS and I didn't realize it was another Commander Keen game) but I haven't finished any of them, the closest is finishing a couple of levels of each (and all except one in Keen 6 demo). Back then I played on Easy skill, which meant less enemies and more ammo for raygun per pickup (I think 7 shots instead of 5 on the normal/hard difficulties).
In 2018, I decided to come back to Keen games and I have played and finished all 7 Commander Keen games (Hard skill for Dreams and 4-6, the first 3 games have no skill levels), using DOSBox. I own them as part of Book of ID from id anthology, they are all fully patched except for Keen 6 which is initial 1.0 CGA version for some reason (though I had to manually patch it to version 1.4 or 1.5) and let me say how frustrating were some of them. I will try to comment on each from what I remember (plan to replay them) and some tips I can give:
Save game after each level complete (you can save only on world map in Keen 1-3, in rest games you can save anywhere), if you screw up you can load. You start with 5 lives and can acquire more when you reach a certain score (every 20000 or so I think). The raygun ammo can be collected even above 99 shots (I think in first 3 games you can't see the exact amount of ammo when you have more than 99 shots, however you can have more than 100 shots, as you notice if you use raygun, you will still have 99 shots shown in menu).
If a level has a lot of collectibles (teddy bears and ray guns), you can farm a lot of lives and ammo, pretty much giving you nearly infinite. Then you can die on purpose and reset the level. There is a level exactly like this in Keen 2, I can't think of other levels that have so many things to collect (in same room) where you would end up better if you collect all/most of stuff, then die on purpose so you can reset the level. On the other hand, if you use too much ammo on a level and die, it is better to just load your last save as you will have same amount of ammo you had when you died. Oh yeah, the last level in Keen 2 has a bunch of rayguns at start so if you die, you can just retry without loading (though in first three games, dying automatically returns you to world map, so you must press CTRL to enter that level again) just make sure you have enough lives but since it is the last level, it doesn't matter, assuming you saved with 20 or so lives and use them, just load your last save (hopefully you saved with the 20 lives or else it would be boring to keep loading game after game over screen).
Pogo can be activated by ALT button if I'm not mistaken, while shooting raygun required a combo (ALT and CTRL or ALT and SPACE) which was quite ridiculous that they didn't bind shooting to a single button.
Commander Keen 1 was ok for the most part, though some later levels were really annoying, the one which had 3 rayguns at start and was full of those Garg enemies (the big green ones with big mouth) was frustrating to me. There is also a secret level which is exactly found in that level mentioned above. You need to go down, then get frozen by the cannon that fires ice cubes (and hope you get launched over that wall), then avoid that robot (if it shoots you while frozen, it will just thaw ice) and hope he doesn't shoot you right when you were thawing or else you die.
Commander Keen 2 was a bit harder but still fun for the most part, just some levels had too many of those space wolves and the fact you die in one hit, just didn't help at all. Also note there is a level that I remember being able to soft lock, you have to use those screws (the small red robots) to climb on them to reach a side but if you don't activate that platform and let them fall to bottom, then there is no way to get that card/key or whatever necessary item to progress. Oh and finally, destroy those machines by shooting in their top, also don't press the switch near machines (activated with ALT which activates pogo) or else you get instant game over. I don't think there is a secret level in Keen 2.
Commander Keen 3 was much harder, really annoying sometimes, even seemingly impossible to complete 3 levels (I admit I used God Mode to get past these three levels in my first playthrough, even though I could reach the final boss without completing these levels, I couldn't figure out to complete these levels without dying, as I wanted to complete them all) but when I replayed the game later and carefully checking some YouTube levels and try to replicate how that person completed the level, I finally managed to complete those levels after probably each level taking me 30 mins or even a full hour to complete. I really hated those ninja wolves that were hard to avoid and I also fucking hated those enemies that sing and their blast goes through the wall, so it can kill you if the enemy happens to attack while you are already busy fighting someone else or just running. Thankfully there are invulnerability ankhs (in some of these problematic levels) but they are rare and if I'm not mistaken they last a very short time (5-10 seconds) so you need to hurry. Also there is a secret level you can access on the world map, involving riding the monster that occasionally shows up.
As bonus, I remember replaying through these three games using Commander Genius port (mostly for the fact you can save during levels like in later Keen games) but there were many glitches throughout them and the secret level in Keen 3 was unreachable in this port. The bug may have been fixed since then (I played in summer 2018 last time).
Keen Dreams was also frustrating, I remember dying all the fucking time, no joke I don't remember completing a single level without dying in my first playthrough, even the last level against the final boss because I wasn't fast enough to throw the 12th bomb before he stepped on me (or rather touched me, considering all it takes is one touch for Keen to die). You no longer have your pogo stick and throw flower power pellets that temporary turn the enemies into flowers. Then after a few seconds they come back, so you can't get rid of them. Ok, I played on Hard skill but I also learned there is a glitch which causes game to reset to Easy skill, so what I read online and did (and should have worked) was whenever I came back to game after quitting, I started new game on Hard, THEN loaded my saved game so the skill is kept in memory.
Also the final boss requires you to have at least 12 bombs to be able to even enter the final level, if you don't collect enough bombs, you can soft lock and not able to finish game. Thankfully didn't happen to me, not sure if I had collected all bombs but I had more than enough, 18 or 24, forgot how many are in total. And to be fair, the game tells you when you enter a level that bombs are nearby but you can easily miss them and completed levels can't be replayed.
Commander Keen 4 was ok for the most part but later levels were a bit hair pulling with the invincible fire monsters, they were almost everywhere and even saving often on two different slots, dying was a pain in ass, needless to say at least one time I saved before I died, so I switched to other save to continue (in same level), that's why I don't "quicksave" and I instead manual save. There is a secret level somewhere found, ah yes I reminded. It's in the pyramid level I think. You have to gather 12 worms (?) and then they form a giant foot (???) which transports you to secret level!
Commander Keen 5 was fucking frustrating, I remember dying so many times, I think I didn't bother with saving lives, so I often just continued level if I died at beginning, on last level I was on my last life and screwed up and couldn't finish the game (I think you had to let a TV like enemy detonate above the machine to win) because I had stupidly overwrote ALL my 5-6 saves on same level but then I realized I actually have one life left, died on purpose, restarted level (with my last life, meaning I had seen the fucking GAME OVER screen so many times whenever I died) and finally finished! God, that game was so frustrating! Oh and there is a secret level that I don't remember how to access it. There is an unrelated glitch that whenever a small enemy that explodes while Keen walks toward a door (transition to another part of level), if the small enemy explodes, then you access the secret level (?????). I didn't really understand what was going on but I did look on YouTube to see how to correctly access the secret level and not with this weird glitch!
Commander Keen 6 was a bit better imo, not as hard as Keen 4 and nowhere as devilish as Keen 5 but still a bit annoying in some places. Since it's not included in the Steam collection for some reason (meaning you don't get to play it, sadly), I'm not sure if I'm going to write anything about it as I don't remember much but I vastly preferred it to Keen 4 and 5. I found those enemies (that look like want to hug you) to be quite goofy looking and making me smile whenever I see them. They are the ones that appear on title screen. As for secret level, I don't remember much and how to access it, I think you were supposed to hang on a satellite while it travels you to a platform with the secret level (similar to how you access Keen 3 secret level) or was that in Keen 5?
I did also play through a couple of community mods last year, including Keen 7, 8 and 9 (the unofficial The Universe is Toast trilogy) but had to downgrade my Keen 5 version (to make Keen 9 work) as it wouldn't be accepted (wtf?) as it required KEEN5E.EXE (and mine was KEEN5.EXE) and for Keen 6 (to make Keen 8 work) I don't know, probably needed it upgraded to 1.4 or the initial 1.0 EGA version, which I also had to find or patch somewhere. At least Keen 7 is standalone, since Keen 4 is the shareware episode and often Keen 4 come packed installed already. Oh and about the mods, I played on NORMAL skill and some of them (especially Keen 9, seeing as it was a mod for Keen 5) were still fucking annoying at times, requiring save/load spam to get past some sections.
For other mods, let's see. I played Birdman (one level demo) which was interesting where you play as the blue bird from Keen 4 and then some Keen Dreams mods that mostly sucked, one of them, Keen Dreams Plus, was the only good Keen Dreams mod I played so far, which is an extended version of the original game with more levels, fixes, etc. While others such as Keen Meets the Meats (the planned sequel to Keen Dreams) was a broken piece of shit, annoying few levels that I played and couldn't progress through the levels or return to world map because DOSBox would freeze/crash, I couldn't make the mod work fine, apparently it had memory issues and it was unplayable to me outside of first 3-4 levels. Oh and I hated how when Keen died, he turned into a sandwich, which made dying more painful and frustrating, though if you choose to restart level, he would be fine, it's the death animation that was rather strange (though funny at first). Oh and of course you have a meatball that temporary turned enemies into ash but then they came back to life after a few seconds. Again I was playing on normal and still annoying.
I think that's all I can say about Commander Keen games. I want to give another shot soon, probably after replaying the original Keen games or checking some more community mods.
In 2018, I decided to come back to Keen games and I have played and finished all 7 Commander Keen games (Hard skill for Dreams and 4-6, the first 3 games have no skill levels), using DOSBox. I own them as part of Book of ID from id anthology, they are all fully patched except for Keen 6 which is initial 1.0 CGA version for some reason (though I had to manually patch it to version 1.4 or 1.5) and let me say how frustrating were some of them. I will try to comment on each from what I remember (plan to replay them) and some tips I can give:
Save game after each level complete (you can save only on world map in Keen 1-3, in rest games you can save anywhere), if you screw up you can load. You start with 5 lives and can acquire more when you reach a certain score (every 20000 or so I think). The raygun ammo can be collected even above 99 shots (I think in first 3 games you can't see the exact amount of ammo when you have more than 99 shots, however you can have more than 100 shots, as you notice if you use raygun, you will still have 99 shots shown in menu).
If a level has a lot of collectibles (teddy bears and ray guns), you can farm a lot of lives and ammo, pretty much giving you nearly infinite. Then you can die on purpose and reset the level. There is a level exactly like this in Keen 2, I can't think of other levels that have so many things to collect (in same room) where you would end up better if you collect all/most of stuff, then die on purpose so you can reset the level. On the other hand, if you use too much ammo on a level and die, it is better to just load your last save as you will have same amount of ammo you had when you died. Oh yeah, the last level in Keen 2 has a bunch of rayguns at start so if you die, you can just retry without loading (though in first three games, dying automatically returns you to world map, so you must press CTRL to enter that level again) just make sure you have enough lives but since it is the last level, it doesn't matter, assuming you saved with 20 or so lives and use them, just load your last save (hopefully you saved with the 20 lives or else it would be boring to keep loading game after game over screen).
Pogo can be activated by ALT button if I'm not mistaken, while shooting raygun required a combo (ALT and CTRL or ALT and SPACE) which was quite ridiculous that they didn't bind shooting to a single button.
Commander Keen 1 was ok for the most part, though some later levels were really annoying, the one which had 3 rayguns at start and was full of those Garg enemies (the big green ones with big mouth) was frustrating to me. There is also a secret level which is exactly found in that level mentioned above. You need to go down, then get frozen by the cannon that fires ice cubes (and hope you get launched over that wall), then avoid that robot (if it shoots you while frozen, it will just thaw ice) and hope he doesn't shoot you right when you were thawing or else you die.
Commander Keen 2 was a bit harder but still fun for the most part, just some levels had too many of those space wolves and the fact you die in one hit, just didn't help at all. Also note there is a level that I remember being able to soft lock, you have to use those screws (the small red robots) to climb on them to reach a side but if you don't activate that platform and let them fall to bottom, then there is no way to get that card/key or whatever necessary item to progress. Oh and finally, destroy those machines by shooting in their top, also don't press the switch near machines (activated with ALT which activates pogo) or else you get instant game over. I don't think there is a secret level in Keen 2.
Commander Keen 3 was much harder, really annoying sometimes, even seemingly impossible to complete 3 levels (I admit I used God Mode to get past these three levels in my first playthrough, even though I could reach the final boss without completing these levels, I couldn't figure out to complete these levels without dying, as I wanted to complete them all) but when I replayed the game later and carefully checking some YouTube levels and try to replicate how that person completed the level, I finally managed to complete those levels after probably each level taking me 30 mins or even a full hour to complete. I really hated those ninja wolves that were hard to avoid and I also fucking hated those enemies that sing and their blast goes through the wall, so it can kill you if the enemy happens to attack while you are already busy fighting someone else or just running. Thankfully there are invulnerability ankhs (in some of these problematic levels) but they are rare and if I'm not mistaken they last a very short time (5-10 seconds) so you need to hurry. Also there is a secret level you can access on the world map, involving riding the monster that occasionally shows up.
As bonus, I remember replaying through these three games using Commander Genius port (mostly for the fact you can save during levels like in later Keen games) but there were many glitches throughout them and the secret level in Keen 3 was unreachable in this port. The bug may have been fixed since then (I played in summer 2018 last time).
Keen Dreams was also frustrating, I remember dying all the fucking time, no joke I don't remember completing a single level without dying in my first playthrough, even the last level against the final boss because I wasn't fast enough to throw the 12th bomb before he stepped on me (or rather touched me, considering all it takes is one touch for Keen to die). You no longer have your pogo stick and throw flower power pellets that temporary turn the enemies into flowers. Then after a few seconds they come back, so you can't get rid of them. Ok, I played on Hard skill but I also learned there is a glitch which causes game to reset to Easy skill, so what I read online and did (and should have worked) was whenever I came back to game after quitting, I started new game on Hard, THEN loaded my saved game so the skill is kept in memory.
Also the final boss requires you to have at least 12 bombs to be able to even enter the final level, if you don't collect enough bombs, you can soft lock and not able to finish game. Thankfully didn't happen to me, not sure if I had collected all bombs but I had more than enough, 18 or 24, forgot how many are in total. And to be fair, the game tells you when you enter a level that bombs are nearby but you can easily miss them and completed levels can't be replayed.
Commander Keen 4 was ok for the most part but later levels were a bit hair pulling with the invincible fire monsters, they were almost everywhere and even saving often on two different slots, dying was a pain in ass, needless to say at least one time I saved before I died, so I switched to other save to continue (in same level), that's why I don't "quicksave" and I instead manual save. There is a secret level somewhere found, ah yes I reminded. It's in the pyramid level I think. You have to gather 12 worms (?) and then they form a giant foot (???) which transports you to secret level!
Commander Keen 5 was fucking frustrating, I remember dying so many times, I think I didn't bother with saving lives, so I often just continued level if I died at beginning, on last level I was on my last life and screwed up and couldn't finish the game (I think you had to let a TV like enemy detonate above the machine to win) because I had stupidly overwrote ALL my 5-6 saves on same level but then I realized I actually have one life left, died on purpose, restarted level (with my last life, meaning I had seen the fucking GAME OVER screen so many times whenever I died) and finally finished! God, that game was so frustrating! Oh and there is a secret level that I don't remember how to access it. There is an unrelated glitch that whenever a small enemy that explodes while Keen walks toward a door (transition to another part of level), if the small enemy explodes, then you access the secret level (?????). I didn't really understand what was going on but I did look on YouTube to see how to correctly access the secret level and not with this weird glitch!
Commander Keen 6 was a bit better imo, not as hard as Keen 4 and nowhere as devilish as Keen 5 but still a bit annoying in some places. Since it's not included in the Steam collection for some reason (meaning you don't get to play it, sadly), I'm not sure if I'm going to write anything about it as I don't remember much but I vastly preferred it to Keen 4 and 5. I found those enemies (that look like want to hug you) to be quite goofy looking and making me smile whenever I see them. They are the ones that appear on title screen. As for secret level, I don't remember much and how to access it, I think you were supposed to hang on a satellite while it travels you to a platform with the secret level (similar to how you access Keen 3 secret level) or was that in Keen 5?
I did also play through a couple of community mods last year, including Keen 7, 8 and 9 (the unofficial The Universe is Toast trilogy) but had to downgrade my Keen 5 version (to make Keen 9 work) as it wouldn't be accepted (wtf?) as it required KEEN5E.EXE (and mine was KEEN5.EXE) and for Keen 6 (to make Keen 8 work) I don't know, probably needed it upgraded to 1.4 or the initial 1.0 EGA version, which I also had to find or patch somewhere. At least Keen 7 is standalone, since Keen 4 is the shareware episode and often Keen 4 come packed installed already. Oh and about the mods, I played on NORMAL skill and some of them (especially Keen 9, seeing as it was a mod for Keen 5) were still fucking annoying at times, requiring save/load spam to get past some sections.
For other mods, let's see. I played Birdman (one level demo) which was interesting where you play as the blue bird from Keen 4 and then some Keen Dreams mods that mostly sucked, one of them, Keen Dreams Plus, was the only good Keen Dreams mod I played so far, which is an extended version of the original game with more levels, fixes, etc. While others such as Keen Meets the Meats (the planned sequel to Keen Dreams) was a broken piece of shit, annoying few levels that I played and couldn't progress through the levels or return to world map because DOSBox would freeze/crash, I couldn't make the mod work fine, apparently it had memory issues and it was unplayable to me outside of first 3-4 levels. Oh and I hated how when Keen died, he turned into a sandwich, which made dying more painful and frustrating, though if you choose to restart level, he would be fine, it's the death animation that was rather strange (though funny at first). Oh and of course you have a meatball that temporary turned enemies into ash but then they came back to life after a few seconds. Again I was playing on normal and still annoying.
I think that's all I can say about Commander Keen games. I want to give another shot soon, probably after replaying the original Keen games or checking some more community mods.
This post has been edited by RunningDuke: 26 August 2020 - 11:32 PM
#104 Posted 27 August 2020 - 02:02 AM
what in the everlasting gobstopping fuck is this
This...has to be some kind of joke, right?
According to my Steam play time, I have been attempting this same damn level for 6 hours. Literally 50% of my entire playtime has been spent doing this level over, and over, and over, and over.
And then finally, finally after multiple softlocks, a really hard elevator shaft, and mind-numbing repetitive motions to keep my life counter up by repeating everything in the level every single time
I get closer to the bottom of the caves and I see this
This is the only way forward. The ball is stuck bouncing eternally in a circle. I can't pass through it, and even if I could I can't shoot the vorticon because I can't shoot through the ball except on sheer accident so it's impossible to predict when to line up with the vorticon when he jumps and just
who the fuck
why the fuck
how the fuck
This...has to be some kind of joke, right?
According to my Steam play time, I have been attempting this same damn level for 6 hours. Literally 50% of my entire playtime has been spent doing this level over, and over, and over, and over.
And then finally, finally after multiple softlocks, a really hard elevator shaft, and mind-numbing repetitive motions to keep my life counter up by repeating everything in the level every single time
I get closer to the bottom of the caves and I see this
This is the only way forward. The ball is stuck bouncing eternally in a circle. I can't pass through it, and even if I could I can't shoot the vorticon because I can't shoot through the ball except on sheer accident so it's impossible to predict when to line up with the vorticon when he jumps and just
who the fuck
why the fuck
how the fuck
This post has been edited by Ninety-Six: 27 August 2020 - 02:12 AM
#105 Posted 27 August 2020 - 02:23 AM
Level design never really was ID's strong point, nor play-testing. I generally skip over Keen 2 and Keen 3 when playing those games as I find them to be a negative experience, in a series I generally like otherwise. To annoy yourself further, try playing with a gamepad - the two button firing, whilst fine with a keyboard, makes this incredibly annoying, you can't even escape this on the Galaxy engine games, because only jump and pogo can be bound to joysticks, not firing.
#106 Posted 27 August 2020 - 02:29 AM
High Treason, on 27 August 2020 - 02:23 AM, said:
To annoy yourself further, try playing with a gamepad - the two button firing, whilst fine with a keyboard, makes this incredibly annoying, you can't even escape this on the Galaxy engine games, because only jump and pogo can be bound to joysticks, not firing.
Sad part is I have been, so I'm already aware of how troublesome it is. Unfortunately due to problems with my wrist, I really can't play many keyboard-only games. There are some configurations that work, but they either depend on a physical setup I can't do without my main machine, or alternatively require special key rebindings but that, for some reason, the DosBox keymapper doesn't work on this computer.
#107 Posted 27 August 2020 - 03:15 AM
As you're on a modern system, I have to wonder if something like Joy2Key (or whatever it was called) would help with controller issues, as it isn't like the game has any analog movement that would be lost by mapping the gamepad to keys anyway.
This isn't really an option for me as I'm generally in real DOS and simply decided to try the game with my gamepad for fun - where fun generally means spending more time trying to figure out why something isn't working, in this case discovering that the gameport on the back of my (notoriously unreliable) 286 probably never worked to begin with and needed repairs. Remapping a gamepad to key presses isn't exactly trivial or reliable in DOS even when the gameport does work. Lucky for me, I can fall back on the keyboard quite easily though, so it's not such a big deal. Gamepads work quite well with Captain Comic though, in fact it might play even better with one, as well as Crystal Caves and Duke 1, not so sure about Cosmo yet as the option to enable it wasn't entirely obvious.
This isn't really an option for me as I'm generally in real DOS and simply decided to try the game with my gamepad for fun - where fun generally means spending more time trying to figure out why something isn't working, in this case discovering that the gameport on the back of my (notoriously unreliable) 286 probably never worked to begin with and needed repairs. Remapping a gamepad to key presses isn't exactly trivial or reliable in DOS even when the gameport does work. Lucky for me, I can fall back on the keyboard quite easily though, so it's not such a big deal. Gamepads work quite well with Captain Comic though, in fact it might play even better with one, as well as Crystal Caves and Duke 1, not so sure about Cosmo yet as the option to enable it wasn't entirely obvious.
#108 Posted 27 August 2020 - 04:27 AM
So I tried a different level. And so there was an RNG pool of water where if the little blue bastards didn't die, they would knock you off the platform and kill you. But of course, if they went far enough offscreen then they would freeze and wouldn't move until you were moving over the pool. And were unable to defend yourself.
And then this.
What am I supposed to do here? I can't try and direct him to the right; he deactivates at that distance. And about 0.001% of the time his kicks will send him onto the little pedestal there. But even if he kicks himself off the platform he'll just hover in the air??
So that's seemingly two unwinnable levels without god-tier RNG. Sure, both of these levels are technically optional I think, but if these are optional then I guess technically the whole game is optional then too, isn't it?
Yeah I think I'm done.
I'm deeply sorry to anyone whose childhoods I just opened up and dumped all over. I really am. I didn't want it to turn out this way. I thought I'd be playing a fun little platformer from id's early days; the game that put them on the map. I certainly didn't want it to turn out like this.
But I'm sorry. This game, or at least the second and third episodes, are just full of shockingly bad game design. Very poorly thought-out mechanics, very poorly explained mechanics, abysmal enemy design, atrocious enemy placement...
I know this was the early days of PC gaming but platformers were a tried and true genre by this point in gaming history. Maybe not on PC but I don't think that really excuses this. I don't really believe in games aging; I think what is bad now was bad then. People just reacted differently I guess. But if I had played this as a kid myself... I don't think I'd like it much either.
I know this is a duke fansite and my biases towards a certain entry in the series are worn clear as day, but I played the entire first Duke game about a year ago for the first time (only ever having access to the shareware version previously). And I'm being perfectly critical when I say this: I think DN1 just completely obliterates this game. It's not a perfect game, but I think it's clear DN1 was meant to be a fun game you could play, as opposed to something designed to piss you off as much as possible as a substitute for difficulty. Not even abusing saves really helps here.
And the fact that on Keen 3 alone, and neither of the previous episodes, the game outright tells you to abuse saves... it communicates to me that id knew about all the softlocks and terrible level design within but either couldn't or wouldn't do anything about it.
I will grant that Keen was a technically impressive game that paved the way for PC gaming on the whole, and DN1 would most likely not exist without it. But I don't think that makes the game good. It just makes it impressive.
I might go back and try 4 instead, but it's hard to say for sure right now. I'm pretty bummed out after all this. I really did not expect it to turn out like it did.
And then this.
What am I supposed to do here? I can't try and direct him to the right; he deactivates at that distance. And about 0.001% of the time his kicks will send him onto the little pedestal there. But even if he kicks himself off the platform he'll just hover in the air??
So that's seemingly two unwinnable levels without god-tier RNG. Sure, both of these levels are technically optional I think, but if these are optional then I guess technically the whole game is optional then too, isn't it?
Yeah I think I'm done.
I'm deeply sorry to anyone whose childhoods I just opened up and dumped all over. I really am. I didn't want it to turn out this way. I thought I'd be playing a fun little platformer from id's early days; the game that put them on the map. I certainly didn't want it to turn out like this.
But I'm sorry. This game, or at least the second and third episodes, are just full of shockingly bad game design. Very poorly thought-out mechanics, very poorly explained mechanics, abysmal enemy design, atrocious enemy placement...
I know this was the early days of PC gaming but platformers were a tried and true genre by this point in gaming history. Maybe not on PC but I don't think that really excuses this. I don't really believe in games aging; I think what is bad now was bad then. People just reacted differently I guess. But if I had played this as a kid myself... I don't think I'd like it much either.
I know this is a duke fansite and my biases towards a certain entry in the series are worn clear as day, but I played the entire first Duke game about a year ago for the first time (only ever having access to the shareware version previously). And I'm being perfectly critical when I say this: I think DN1 just completely obliterates this game. It's not a perfect game, but I think it's clear DN1 was meant to be a fun game you could play, as opposed to something designed to piss you off as much as possible as a substitute for difficulty. Not even abusing saves really helps here.
And the fact that on Keen 3 alone, and neither of the previous episodes, the game outright tells you to abuse saves... it communicates to me that id knew about all the softlocks and terrible level design within but either couldn't or wouldn't do anything about it.
I will grant that Keen was a technically impressive game that paved the way for PC gaming on the whole, and DN1 would most likely not exist without it. But I don't think that makes the game good. It just makes it impressive.
I might go back and try 4 instead, but it's hard to say for sure right now. I'm pretty bummed out after all this. I really did not expect it to turn out like it did.
This post has been edited by Ninety-Six: 27 August 2020 - 04:31 AM
- The Sarien Encounter
-
#109 Posted 27 August 2020 - 08:06 AM
I was never a big fan of thr first 3 Keen episodes. With the delayed jump and awkward level designs. 4 and 5 are much much better. Or at least more fun.
#110 Posted 27 August 2020 - 08:16 AM
That's uplifting to hear. That makes a good multitude of people saying GG is better. I guess I will go for it after all.
According to some cursory research I did, Keen 3 was rushed out and...yeah, I was smelling it even before it was confirmed. It just reeks of being unfinished.
I don't suppose there's a mod out there that makes Keen 3 less of a trainwreck? I'll even accept 2 and its really dumb design choices but 3 is almost unplayable with how broken it is, between all the softlocks and unwinnable situations.
According to some cursory research I did, Keen 3 was rushed out and...yeah, I was smelling it even before it was confirmed. It just reeks of being unfinished.
I don't suppose there's a mod out there that makes Keen 3 less of a trainwreck? I'll even accept 2 and its really dumb design choices but 3 is almost unplayable with how broken it is, between all the softlocks and unwinnable situations.
- The Sarien Encounter
-
#111 Posted 27 August 2020 - 08:30 AM
Don't get the wrong idea, GG can be HARD. But I don't feel like it's totally unfair. It's a great challenge. That said, I haven't beaten it yet lol.
#112 Posted 27 August 2020 - 08:43 AM
Hard is one thing.
Unwinnable is another.
I'm all fine with hard. In fact I welcome it, so long as you are given all the tools (and knowledge, Keen 2!) to succeed. You just have to actually do it.
Case in point, the level I first complained about. If you remove the cave section (or at least all the softlocks in it) then what we are left with is a brutally hard but ultimately fair challenge. There is plentiful ammo at the start (if you explore but hey at least it's there), you don't usually have to worry about falling on top of an enemy or out-of-sight instant death trap. It's just a really hard stage.
Minus the infuriation caused by the aforementioned softlocks and how long it took to get back to the caves even on a single attempt (which rarely happened), for the most part I wasn't getting too frustrated. Even if it did take me six damn hours, I was still mastering the level, getting through it.
That stuff I'm perfectly alright with. No matter how long it takes.
It's why the level ending with an impassable softlock hits all the harder. I spent six hours mastering the thing only to have no payoff.
If GG is hard and earns its difficulty, I will have no issue. It's the outright broken level design of the predecessor that really makes the Vorticon set play like ass.
Unwinnable is another.
I'm all fine with hard. In fact I welcome it, so long as you are given all the tools (and knowledge, Keen 2!) to succeed. You just have to actually do it.
Case in point, the level I first complained about. If you remove the cave section (or at least all the softlocks in it) then what we are left with is a brutally hard but ultimately fair challenge. There is plentiful ammo at the start (if you explore but hey at least it's there), you don't usually have to worry about falling on top of an enemy or out-of-sight instant death trap. It's just a really hard stage.
Minus the infuriation caused by the aforementioned softlocks and how long it took to get back to the caves even on a single attempt (which rarely happened), for the most part I wasn't getting too frustrated. Even if it did take me six damn hours, I was still mastering the level, getting through it.
That stuff I'm perfectly alright with. No matter how long it takes.
It's why the level ending with an impassable softlock hits all the harder. I spent six hours mastering the thing only to have no payoff.
If GG is hard and earns its difficulty, I will have no issue. It's the outright broken level design of the predecessor that really makes the Vorticon set play like ass.
#114 Posted 27 August 2020 - 09:45 AM
You guys do know that you can skip most of episode 3 and get to fight Mortimer McMire in about two levels or so, right?
#115 Posted 27 August 2020 - 02:13 PM
I agree with Master O. Because I don't remember the parts 69 is talking about. I'm guessing I bypassed quite a bit the last time I played it. Honestly, I don't think too many people's childhoods were dumped on by the rant about Keen 2 and 3. Most people who played it probably only played the shareware episode. Dunno about around here. I always felt that Keen 4 and Jazz Jackrabbit were better than the original, too awkward to play.
#116 Posted 27 August 2020 - 03:58 PM
Master O, on 27 August 2020 - 09:45 AM, said:
You guys do know that you can skip most of episode 3 and get to fight Mortimer McMire in about two levels or so, right?
Yes, but as I said, technically the whole game is optional.
I'm a completionist. I need to see everything. And unfortunately it's not like there's some sort of marker on the map to indicate which levels are straight-up unbeatable and which ones are doable.
#117 Posted 27 August 2020 - 10:05 PM
Ninety-Six, on 27 August 2020 - 04:27 AM, said:
I'm deeply sorry to anyone whose childhoods I just opened up and dumped all over. I really am. I didn't want it to turn out this way. I thought I'd be playing a fun little platformer from id's early days; the game that put them on the map. I certainly didn't want it to turn out like this.
But I'm sorry. This game, or at least the second and third episodes, are just full of shockingly bad game design. Very poorly thought-out mechanics, very poorly explained mechanics, abysmal enemy design, atrocious enemy placement...
I know this was the early days of PC gaming but platformers were a tried and true genre by this point in gaming history. Maybe not on PC but I don't think that really excuses this. I don't really believe in games aging; I think what is bad now was bad then. People just reacted differently I guess. But if I had played this as a kid myself... I don't think I'd like it much either.
I know this is a duke fansite and my biases towards a certain entry in the series are worn clear as day, but I played the entire first Duke game about a year ago for the first time (only ever having access to the shareware version previously). And I'm being perfectly critical when I say this: I think DN1 just completely obliterates this game. It's not a perfect game, but I think it's clear DN1 was meant to be a fun game you could play, as opposed to something designed to piss you off as much as possible as a substitute for difficulty. Not even abusing saves really helps here.
And the fact that on Keen 3 alone, and neither of the previous episodes, the game outright tells you to abuse saves... it communicates to me that id knew about all the softlocks and terrible level design within but either couldn't or wouldn't do anything about it.
I will grant that Keen was a technically impressive game that paved the way for PC gaming on the whole, and DN1 would most likely not exist without it. But I don't think that makes the game good. It just makes it impressive.
I might go back and try 4 instead, but it's hard to say for sure right now. I'm pretty bummed out after all this. I really did not expect it to turn out like it did.
But I'm sorry. This game, or at least the second and third episodes, are just full of shockingly bad game design. Very poorly thought-out mechanics, very poorly explained mechanics, abysmal enemy design, atrocious enemy placement...
I know this was the early days of PC gaming but platformers were a tried and true genre by this point in gaming history. Maybe not on PC but I don't think that really excuses this. I don't really believe in games aging; I think what is bad now was bad then. People just reacted differently I guess. But if I had played this as a kid myself... I don't think I'd like it much either.
I know this is a duke fansite and my biases towards a certain entry in the series are worn clear as day, but I played the entire first Duke game about a year ago for the first time (only ever having access to the shareware version previously). And I'm being perfectly critical when I say this: I think DN1 just completely obliterates this game. It's not a perfect game, but I think it's clear DN1 was meant to be a fun game you could play, as opposed to something designed to piss you off as much as possible as a substitute for difficulty. Not even abusing saves really helps here.
And the fact that on Keen 3 alone, and neither of the previous episodes, the game outright tells you to abuse saves... it communicates to me that id knew about all the softlocks and terrible level design within but either couldn't or wouldn't do anything about it.
I will grant that Keen was a technically impressive game that paved the way for PC gaming on the whole, and DN1 would most likely not exist without it. But I don't think that makes the game good. It just makes it impressive.
I might go back and try 4 instead, but it's hard to say for sure right now. I'm pretty bummed out after all this. I really did not expect it to turn out like it did.
Haha, just reading your posts reminds me exactly how much I hated these exact levels (these exact areas too) from Keen 3 and my feelings in general about some of the Keen games. Don't worry and don't feel sorry for trashing the Keen games, although I have some fond memories (even if I didn't finish them) of Keen 1, 4 and the demo version of 6, I really HATED Keen Dreams, Keen 3 and 5, while only slightly hating Keen 2 for some of its levels (also forgot to mention about turning off the lights to prevent those space wolves from jumping but since you already figured out that, I didn't feel the need to repeat myself). Yeah I hated Keen 5 due to its difficulty but it was way better than Keen 2 and 3, can't decide if it's better than first Keen game, maybe slightly better in terms of gameplay but the sadistic level design just didn't do it to me.
Keen 1, 4 and 6 were the best and not only for nostalgia but also they were the most balanced too. So don't worry, you will enjoy a lot better Keen 4 but probably get frustrated with Keen 5. The only hint I can give at moment is to avoid that big red robot's lasers in Keen 5, climb on a pole and wait for it to pass. I remember losing a lot of lives at beginning of that level which has the giant red robot.
Oh and some of the tips I gave above, mostly applied to the original Keen trilogy (the Vorticons trilogy) but there's a few other tips I forgot to give for the Galaxy trilogy (yes I consider Keen 6 as part of trilogy even if it was published by FormGen) such as the fact that collecting 100 of droplets in Keen 4 (and the equivalent in Keen 5 and 6) gives you an extra life.
And finally, if you thought the Commander Keen games were bad, wait until you get to play the older id software games that they made for Softdisk, I mean stuff like Dangerous Dave, Hovertank, Slordax, etc. I always thought most of these games were pretty bad, considering the fact you die in a single hit in most of them and Dangerous Dave for example doesn't even have save game option and if you get game over, you either continue from PREVIOUS level or quit game and restart from first level. Sure it has 8 levels but I couldn't get past level 7 without cheating with God Mode or Level Select, seriously I fucking hated Dangerous Dave, only the first few levels were fun, later levels were complete shit. The final boss fight was interesting but too bad you had to get past the awful level 7, thus reaching the ending with God Mode enabled (and the final boss isn't even too bad, can take one or two attempts) or warping directly to final level. Hovertank and the Catacomb games were more forgiving, in Hovertank you can take 3 hits before dying and in Catacomb games you have a health bar and tons of potions to heal, so at least these games are easy. Good luck playing Catacomb 3D (and Catacomb Abyss) with its low FOV and nauseating gameplay. I remember playing and finishing all these games back in 2018-2019 and I hated most of them. Only the Catacomb games may have been decent (and about half of Hovertank) and maybe also Rescue Rover (the second game was way better) but all the others (Dangerous Dave, Slordax, Shadow Knights, etc) were trash, requiring cheats to beat them.
I also agree to the fact Duke Nukem 1 and 2 were WAY better than Commander Keen games, at least in Duke platformers you have a health bar with 8 hits (and the 9th hit killing you) and better weapons (with infinite ammo too, at least the starting weapons) and even if there were some unfair levels in the Duke platformers (from what I played 5 years ago, in the summer of 2015), they were a LOT better and much more fair than the average Keen level. In contrast, Commander Keen dies instantly in all the games, with exception of Doom 2 Easter Egg (where he is found four times at end of Level 32) where he seems to have 100 health.
And yes, it's true that you can skip most of Keen 3 and fight the final boss but it doesn't help for those of us who like to complete all levels. Either way, Keen 3 was rushed and probably the only good thing about it was the ending.
#118 Posted 27 August 2020 - 10:21 PM
RunningDuke, on 27 August 2020 - 10:05 PM, said:
And finally, if you thought the Commander Keen games were bad, wait until you get to play the older id software games that they made for Softdisk, I mean stuff like Dangerous Dave, Hovertank, Slordax, etc. I always thought most of these games were pretty bad, considering the fact you die in a single hit in most of them and Dangerous Dave for example doesn't even have save game option and if you get game over, you either continue from PREVIOUS level or quit game and restart from first level. Sure it has 8 levels but I couldn't get past level 7 without cheating with God Mode or Level Select, seriously I fucking hated Dangerous Dave, only the first few levels were fun, later levels were complete shit. The final boss fight was interesting but too bad you had to get past the awful level 7, thus reaching the ending with God Mode enabled (and the final boss isn't even too bad, can take one or two attempts) or warping directly to final level. Hovertank and the Catacomb games were more forgiving, in Hovertank you can take 3 hits before dying and in Catacomb games you have a health bar and tons of potions to heal, so at least these games are easy. Good luck playing Catacomb 3D (and Catacomb Abyss) with its low FOV and nauseating gameplay. I remember playing and finishing all these games back in 2018-2019 and I hated most of them. Only the Catacomb games may have been decent (and about half of Hovertank) and maybe also Rescue Rover (the second game was way better) but all the others (Dangerous Dave, Slordax, Shadow Knights, etc) were trash, requiring cheats to beat them.
Believe it or not I actually have played a few of those older games already. A few years back I wanted to look at id's proto-Wolfenstein engine games, since I had just finished Wolf, Spear, and its expansions.
This also meant playing the original Catacomb games too. My verdicts are gonna be in spoilers since this is slightly off-topic:
Spoiler
#119 Posted 28 August 2020 - 12:22 AM
Ninety-Six, on 27 August 2020 - 10:21 PM, said:
Believe it or not I actually have played a few of those older games already. A few years back I wanted to look at id's proto-Wolfenstein engine games, since I had just finished Wolf, Spear, and its expansions.
This also meant playing the original Catacomb games too. My verdicts are gonna be in spoilers since this is slightly off-topic:
This also meant playing the original Catacomb games too. My verdicts are gonna be in spoilers since this is slightly off-topic:
Spoiler
Ah ok then. I played and finished these in 2018-2019, so I don't remember every detail. I looked at spoiler and yeah I agree with you, I will reply to each in the spoiler:
Spoiler
Let me know when you start with the rest Keen games, I want to hear your opinion on those (and if you managed to get Keen 6, at least the demo version).
This post has been edited by RunningDuke: 28 August 2020 - 12:26 AM
#120 Posted 28 August 2020 - 03:54 AM
Spoiler
All in all I guess Keen's somewhat disastrous first game just fits in with the roller coaster of quality that was early id software. Some were good, some were bad, and some were level 19 of Hovertank.
This post has been edited by Ninety-Six: 28 August 2020 - 03:56 AM
