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Original Build editor  "where to find it?"

User is offline   Big Bene 

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#1

Hello!

I'm looking for the original, MS-DOS-based build editor for the original game.

The information is probably visible plain and open here and elsewhere, but personally, I couldn't find it to save my life.
Everybody just keeps telling "use Mapster/eDuke, it's better and runs on new Windows".

But what I want to do is creating a satirical game (Nazi Dinosaurs from outer Space) with a fictional history - pretending that the game orginated in the 1980ties or so - so there should be a "new" version with (halfways) modern graphics (Far Cry level), and at least one "old" version with 2.5D graphics, that runs on a 486 on DOS. Obviousely, the "modern" version I can't do all alone, but the "vintage" version, I probably can. Not saying I will do it anytime soon, I'm not in a hurry, probably will try to make some smaller an easier-to-do maps before. But the idea is to do "vintage" games that would actually run on vintage computers.
If it doesn't run on modern Windows (without emulator), that's all the better, it would add to the desired vintage flavour.

I know there was a DOS-based map editor, I owned it and used it years ago, but I can't find it anymore...

Or am I completely wrong, and I can use eDuke to create maps for the original engine?

Thanx and greetings

Ben

This post has been edited by Big Bene: 20 March 2017 - 12:15 AM

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User is offline   Lunick 

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#2

If you really want the original Build.exe, it should be on the original Duke 3D disc (or GOG installation).
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User is online   Daedolon 

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#3

View PostBig Bene, on 20 March 2017 - 12:13 AM, said:

Or am I completely wrong, and I can use eDuke to create maps for the original engine?


Mapster32 comes with EDuke32 and creates map files that are identical with the original editor (unless you specifically create new effects like TROR). Plus, it's more stable and generally more user-friendly.

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User is offline   MetHy 

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#4

View PostBig Bene, on 20 March 2017 - 12:13 AM, said:

Or am I completely wrong, and I can use eDuke to create maps for the original engine?


You can, and I'd recommend doing so because Mapster32 has a LOT of small things which make mapping easier and faster, but make sure you test your map in DOS Duke as you Build it, rather than just testing it in EDuke32.
EDuke32 supports features which the original game doesn't, and if you only test your map in EDuke32 thinking it's "vanilla" just because you don't use TROR and the likes, you could be wrong.

Some of these EDuke32 only features are obvious, but some are not and even experienced mappers (who usually only play in EDuke32) wouldn't even know their stuff isn't vanilla compatible. For instance, the subway effect can only carry active sprites in vanilla, but in EDuke32 it can carry any sprite. Also the rocket ship from E2L1 can be placed at a much higher height in EDuke32 than that of the player, but not so much in vanilla. In EDuke32 you can have textures with transparency behind a semi transparent mask wall, but in vanilla that would appear pink. Etc.
There isn't exactly a list of differences like this and some might even be unknown so you'll just have to test your map in DOS to make sure it's vanilla compatible.


This post has been edited by MetHy: 20 March 2017 - 03:18 AM

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User is offline   Big Bene 

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#5

Lunick said:

If you really want the original Build.exe, it should be on the original Duke 3D disc (or GOG installation).

I don't own the CD anymore. I recently downloaded the Atomic Edition, but the build.exe file was missing. Which release should I look for?




View PostDaedolon, on 20 March 2017 - 01:46 AM, said:

Plus, it's more stable and generally more user-friendly.


I got this impression, too, so I actually hoped for an answer like this.
But after reading this thread, I see that backwards compability (though certainly intended) seems to be a problem:

Quote

That's true. A random example is how the rockets coming out of the alien spaceship (E2L1 style) on the boss Rooftop map of Duke Hard only works in EDuke32, even though nothing was specifically done to make that effect behave differently than in DOS Duke (i've come to the conclusion that with that effect, the rockets instantly explode if the SE which tells where the rocket is coming from is too high compared to the player's height; I mean, the rockets don't even explode against the ship, they can explode in mid air too as long as that SE is too high compared to the player. Except it works no matter what in EDuke32.)
Other random examples :
-some sprites will appear all glitchy if you make them floor aligned in DOS Duke, but not in EDuke32. I think it has to do with the size of the textures/sprites used; not all sizes used to support floor alignment.
-if you use a semi-transparent mask wall, and behind that mask wall use a texture on a wall that also has transparency; that transparency part of the texture, instead of being black like it is normally (with no mask wall in front of it) it will appear pink so long as there is that semi-transparent mask wall in front of it. However in EDuke32, it does appear black no matter what which means you have more freedom as far as what to put behind semi-transparent mask walls are concerned.

Quote

Also, subway sectors used to only be able to carry active sprites (or else it would appear all glitchy). In EDuke32, they can carry any sprite. So if you don't know that, make a map and put sprites on a subway sector and see it work in EDuke32, you wouldn't suspect it doesn't work in vanilla.


Quote

Again, minor example, but there is probably more; plenty of small things seem to be possible in EDuke32 which weren't possible in vanilla Duke; so one shouldn't expect his map to work invanilla Duke if he's built it with mapster32, just because he didn't go over the limit.
Since there is no list of all the small differences like this between vanilla and EDuke32, if you want to do a vanilla map, the best thing remains to test your map every so-often to make sure it behaves normally in DOS Duke. Again, even with the extra trouble of having to do that, it still is worth it to map in mapster32 over the old Build due to all the new features added to the editor.


Quote

As far as maps are concerned, like I said if you use mapster32 to map it's sadly not as simple as not going over the limit. Your map Abstractech doesn't go over the limit but can't be played in anything other than EDuke32 (and it doesn't use anything out of the examples I mentioned above; so the reasons why it doesn't work in vanilla is because of other EDuke32 only smallthings).


It's that kind of thing that concerned me and made me ask for the old build.exe to begin with.

The very idea of doing anything with Duke3D or the Build engine is having it backwards compatible, enjoing the fact that my content could at least theoretically be run on a 486 machine, otherwise I would go straight to the Unreal engine, frankly spoken.

I have worked with the orignial build.exe in the past, and it was good fun. This doesn't mean I'm fixed to it, if the benefits of Mapster really are so overwhelming as described, I'm the last one to denounce it, but it has to be 100% backward compatible to the original engine, that's the one and only essential point, otherwise I see no point in doing it at all. If anyone can show me a way to guarantee backward compatibility, I'm more than ready to use Mapster.

To put it clear: I do not have a 486 running at the moment. I use DosBox under Ubuntu. It's just about how my own nostalgic feelings work.
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User is offline   Big Bene 

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#6

View PostMetHy, on 20 March 2017 - 03:17 AM, said:

You can, and I'd recommend doing so because Mapster32 has a LOT of small things which make mapping easier and faster, but make sure you test your map in DOS Duke as you Build it, rather than just testing it in EDuke32.
EDuke32 supports features which the original game doesn't, and if you only test your map in EDuke32 thinking it's "vanilla" just because you don't use TROR and the likes, you could be wrong.
...

Cross-posted, I wrote my reply to Lunick and Daedalon before reading your post.
I will have to go back to work now, so sorry I can't react further before tomorrow.
Thanx for all the input!
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User is offline   MetHy 

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#7

If when you build your map you test in DOS Duke, there is no problem at all.

You may be trying things with some effects, and see that it doesn't work, so you'll try something else. The same way you would if you were using Build but with more comfort.

I'm just saying that MAYBE, in some rare cases, that same thing could have worked in EDuke32 and also that one who tests his map in EDuke32 only shouldn't take for granted vanilla compatibility just because he didn't use big features like TROR.
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User is online   Micky C 

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#8

Yeah you're getting mixed up between the editor and the game.

Mapster32 is completely backwards compatible with the original game. 100% guaranteed.

ALL of the concerns you've pointed out can be done in the original build editor just as easily as mapster32. It makes no difference. On the game side eduke has extra fixes, but the game fixes can be taken advantage of by the original build. The only concern is whether you choose to use to take advantages of the fixes or not.

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This post has been edited by Micky C: 20 March 2017 - 04:25 AM

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User is offline   Drek 

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#9

You can edit the mapster32.cfg file so that it uses the dos version for play testing (ctrl+p)

; Game executable used for map testing
gameexecutable = eduke32.exe

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User is offline   Hendricks266 

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#10

^You would have to change that to a dosbox.exe with its configuration file set to autorun duke3d.exe with autosave_playtest.map. oasiz made something like this for the Powerslave maps recently.
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User is offline   Nancsi 

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#11

View PostMetHy, on 20 March 2017 - 03:17 AM, said:

You can, and I'd recommend doing so because Mapster32 has a LOT of small things which make mapping easier and faster, but make sure you test your map in DOS Duke as you Build it, rather than just testing it in EDuke32.
EDuke32 supports features which the original game doesn't, and if you only test your map in EDuke32 thinking it's "vanilla" just because you don't use TROR and the likes, you could be wrong.

Some of these EDuke32 only features are obvious, but some are not and even experienced mappers (who usually only play in EDuke32) wouldn't even know their stuff isn't vanilla compatible. For instance, the subway effect can only carry active sprites in vanilla, but in EDuke32 it can carry any sprite. Also the rocket ship from E2L1 can be placed at a much higher height in EDuke32 than that of the player, but not so much in vanilla. In EDuke32 you can have textures with transparency behind a semi transparent mask wall, but in vanilla that would appear pink. Etc.
There isn't exactly a list of differences like this and some might even be unknown so you'll just have to test your map in DOS to make sure it's vanilla compatible.


One more typical update:

In the original Build you couldn't build a two-way train and Reconcars with different paths. This is possible with Mapster, although Reconcar locators must be built later, or you will see the shortcomings like seen in Golden Carnage.

Also, AFAIK you can connect now two underwater sectors with two-way teleport. That wasn't possible earlier, and some levels like Lost Highway L3 were screwed by it.

This post has been edited by Nancsi: 20 March 2017 - 08:54 AM

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User is online   Daedolon 

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#12

I made a simple executable that launches a batch file which is set up to launch dosbox, a bit convoluted, but it works.. I'm not sure if it's still in the Powerslave mapping package.

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User is online   High Treason 

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#13

If you're really worried about compatibility, you can always use JFDuke3D. It's an old Windows port that is no longer updated, but other than the optional OpenGL renderer and its enhancements, it changed very little from the original game and editor.

http://www.jonof.id.au/jfduke3d

Of course, Mapster is the more capable editor overall, so if you're willing to keep your mind on not breaking compatibility, it is probably the easier option overall.

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User is online   Micky C 

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#14

View PostHendricks266, on 20 March 2017 - 05:14 AM, said:

^You would have to change that to a dosbox.exe with its configuration file set to autorun duke3d.exe with autosave_playtest.map. oasiz made something like this for the Powerslave maps recently.



Time to whip out the mapster from the EDuke16 project you were working on eh? Posted Image

Polymer wishlist: Global illumination, SSAO, Bloom, reflective surfaces, adjustable specular (wetness), volumetric lighting.
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User is offline   Big Bene 

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#15

Have a lilttle time to reply now, not much, will answer the individual posts later in detail. All in all, much useful information, thanx a lot to all of you!

Just a short question:
I will give Mapster a try, can you give me a hint wich version I should get?
On the download page, it says it works on Linux, but there's no obvious Linux version shown to choose.
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User is online   Daedolon 

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#16

You'll have to build it yourself, the latest source code is available from the EDuke32 site.

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User is online   Micky C 

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#17

View PostBig Bene, on 21 March 2017 - 01:42 AM, said:

Have a lilttle time to reply now, not much, will answer the individual posts later in detail. All in all, much useful information, thanx a lot to all of you!

Just a short question:
I will give Mapster a try, can you give me a hint wich version I should get?
On the download page, it says it works on Linux, but there's no obvious Linux version shown to choose.



What Daedolon said. The build instructions are on the wiki: http://wiki.eduke32....Duke32_on_Linux

Polymer wishlist: Global illumination, SSAO, Bloom, reflective surfaces, adjustable specular (wetness), volumetric lighting.
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User is online   Mark. 

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#18

I know nothing about Linux but yet I still have a question about it. ;)
Why are Linux versions not supplied with every new revision? Is it:

A. legal issues in combining all the library files together for public download
B. too much time and effort involved
C. It builds differently on each computer therefore its left up to each Linux user
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User is online   Micky C 

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#19

Basically yeah a lot of different types of linux and different versions. Building from source isn't that hard on linux.

Polymer wishlist: Global illumination, SSAO, Bloom, reflective surfaces, adjustable specular (wetness), volumetric lighting.
Mapper of the Month December 2014.

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