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Did anybody here ever stop to think how similar Duke and Trump really are?

User is offline   Forge 

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#181

View PostMicky C, on 28 January 2017 - 11:40 PM, said:

So you're comparing your country against another country so degenerate that you're building a $50 billion wall just to separate yourself from?

i'm not talking about a wall, i'm talking about your australian gun logic.
I also compared Switzerland, which has a very high gun per capita - 2nd in the world, to Australia, which has a higher murder per capita than Switzerland..
By your logic, Australia is a fucking degenerate thunderdome because they can't control the murder-urges that guns psychically beam around the planet into people's dreams while they sleep. Even (and apparently especially) into countries that have very few privately owned guns.

Wanna see a Trick?

View PostMicky C, on 28 January 2017 - 07:43 PM, said:

Why don't you compare America to that of other developed, western nations and see what the new ranking is?

I just gave you what you asked for, and now you're dissatisfied with the results of the data

Quote

The problem is you're not looking at the whole picture. Many of those countries have a higher crime rate, so even with a lower proportion of guns, the result by simple math is a lot more gun death. And you're still arguing "oh we're far better off than other countries, so what's the problem?" Don't forget you're also far worse than pretty much all of the developed countries too.

here you go again fudging the criteria to suit your goal

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At the end of the day, comparisons with other countries is meaningless. The real question is this: can American lives be saved if guns are removed from the population in the U.S? To that, the answer is most certainly yes.

The reason why I brought up Australia which got us into this giant comparison in the first place is that it shows that criminals won't run rampant on the streets killing and stealing without challenge, which is typically the primary argument or 'logic' against any kind of gun control.

more strawman
please do at least a little research before you climb on a soap box

Posted Image
*gun homicides are overwhelmingly tied to gang violence. In fact, a staggering 80% of gun homicides are gang-related (CDC)

This post has been edited by Forge: 29 January 2017 - 10:46 AM

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User is offline   ErgoTheChappy 

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#182

View PostDrek, on 29 January 2017 - 07:42 AM, said:

While you're at it remove those dangerous cars too plz :)

Also those dangerous carbs!

Been doing birthday stuff yesterday/today... will get back into the mix later.

This post has been edited by ErgoTheChappy: 29 January 2017 - 10:12 AM

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User is online   Trooper Dan 

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#183

Looking at that list...so there were 0 suicides in the US?

Since this has become another free-for-all political thread, I propose that we actually get back to the original topic of the thread or take the generic political discussion elsewhere. There are already other threads for that.
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User is offline   ErgoTheChappy 

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#184

View PostTrooper Dan, on 29 January 2017 - 10:59 AM, said:

Looking at that list...so there were 0 suicides in the US?

Suicides are rolled into the methods of death (gunshot, overdose, etc).

Interestingly suicide by drinking yourself to death because your wife is a shrieking Octabrain isn't a widely tracked statistic.

View PostTrooper Dan, on 29 January 2017 - 10:59 AM, said:

Since this has become another free-for-all political thread, I propose that we actually get back to the original topic of the thread or take the generic political discussion elsewhere. There are already other threads for that.

I'm with ya. The doozy I have planned for after my partying today was going to be put in the "I have no idea" thread and just a link in here.
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User is online   Trooper Dan 

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#185

View PostErgoTheChappy, on 29 January 2017 - 11:12 AM, said:

Suicides are rolled into the methods of death (gunshot, overdose, etc).


I don't think so. Notice it says "murder by gun". Murder != suicide. There are nearly 20K gun suicides per year. Typically, the anti-gun crowd does roll those numbers together, which is why we normally hear claims that the number of gun killings per year in the US is about 30K.
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User is offline   ErgoTheChappy 

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#186

Good point. Would be curious to compare the overdose numbers in that list as well vs totals then. They may have deliberately left out intentional suicides specifically to show what the situation looks like without suicide in the mix. For example hanging doesn't show up in the list.

/salute... back after I'm officially 40 and too old for this shit.
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User is online   MusicallyInspired 

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#187

Intentional suicide. Now there's a concept.
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User is offline   Forge 

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#188

View PostTrooper Dan, on 29 January 2017 - 10:59 AM, said:

Looking at that list...so there were 0 suicides in the US?

suicide ranks below kidney disease.

i'm guessing it was left off the chart because the methodology that can be used to get the job done overlaps other causes.
Also note that they left off homicide by means other than using a gun - which would rank above alcohol

monitor your favorite means of death:
http://www.worldlife...-age-and-gender

even this is vague. It has suicide and homicide, but not the methods used.
You'll probably never find a 'perfect' chart.

This post has been edited by Forge: 29 January 2017 - 12:04 PM

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User is offline   Micky C 

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#189

View PostDrek, on 29 January 2017 - 07:42 AM, said:

While you're at it remove those dangerous cars too plz :)


Actually by the looks of things, we'll have self-driving cars soon which should greatly reduce the number of accidents Posted Image

View PostForge, on 29 January 2017 - 09:10 AM, said:

I also compared Switzerland, which has a very high gun per capita - 2nd in the world, to Australia, which has a higher murder per capita than Switzerland..


See, you keep making comparisons that rely on one assumption: the proportion of gun ownership is perfectly correlated with the proportion of gun homicide. As soon as that assumption is proved invalid, your entire argument collapses.

There are all sorts of other variables that affect homicide rates, such as law enforcement and population density. You've made the comparison with Switzerland. Perhaps they have a relatively high gun ownership because they have compulsory military service and store their weapons at home. There are significant implications from this; these people don't choose to have their guns and therefore typically would simply keep them locked up all the time, they're also trained so as to reduce accidents, undertake psychiatric testing and background testing before they're given the gun. It also doesn't account for the type of weaponry, for example I doubt the army would have an extensive need for conceiled weapons like handguns in the heat of battle compared to more conventional weapons like rifles.

So as you see, direct comparisons are fairly meaningless because there are simply too many factors. You need to take it by a case-by-case basis.

View PostErgoTheChappy, on 29 January 2017 - 10:00 AM, said:

Also those dangerous carbs!


You guys do have fairly large serves Posted Image
I blame the hidden sugars in food Posted Image

View PostTrooper Dan, on 29 January 2017 - 10:59 AM, said:

Looking at that list...so there were 0 suicides in the US?

Since this has become another free-for-all political thread, I propose that we actually get back to the original topic of the thread or take the generic political discussion elsewhere. There are already other threads for that.



Probably just easier to rename this thread, maybe to something like "how can trump improve america".

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User is offline   Forge 

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#190

View PostMicky C, on 29 January 2017 - 02:40 PM, said:

See, you keep making comparisons that rely on one assumption: the proportion of gun ownership is perfectly correlated with the proportion of gun homicide. As soon as that assumption is proved invalid, your entire argument collapses.

I've also pointed out that Finland has the world's third highest gun per capita, but a very low murder per capita rate when compared to australia.
The number of guns has negligible correlation to the number homicides.

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There are all sorts of other variables that affect homicide rates, such as law enforcement and population density. You've made the comparison with Switzerland. Perhaps they have a relatively high gun ownership because they have compulsory military service and store their weapons at home. There are significant implications from this; these people don't choose to have their guns and therefore typically would simply keep them locked up all the time, they're also trained so as to reduce accidents, undertake psychiatric testing and background testing before they're given the gun. It also doesn't account for the type of weaponry, for example I doubt the army would have an extensive need for conceiled weapons like handguns in the heat of battle compared to more conventional weapons like rifles.

Cherry picker alert!
more fudging the data and criteria around to get the results you want.


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So as you see, direct comparisons are fairly meaningless because there are simply too many factors. You need to take it by a case-by-case basis.

which is against what you wanted earlier, but since those numbers didn't come out the way you wanted, it's time for a new approach.

give it up already. the data doesn't lie. not even for your own country.

Posted Image

*The number of murder victims fluctuated slightly from 1993 to 2007, whereas manslaughter remained relatively stable.
*The number of murder victims peaked in 1999, at 344; the number of manslaughter victims peaked in 2002, at 48.
*not on the charts - There was a 3.0% decrease in the number of homicide victims in Australia, from 434 in 2013 to a five year low of 421 in 2014

Posted Image

*The percentage of homicides committed with a firearm continued a declining trend which began in 1969. In 2003, fewer than 16% of homicides involved firearms. The figure was similar in 2002 and 2001, down from a high of 44% in 1968

So as you can see - murder rates in your country haven't had a huge change since the 1996 & 2002 gun laws. The use of firearms for muder was already trending down anyway. The major change was weapon of choice. That's all.

Posted Image

This post has been edited by Forge: 29 January 2017 - 03:12 PM

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User is offline   Micky C 

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#191

What I wanted was a broad comparison with other first-world western countries. What you've done is compared Australia with one or two obvious outliers, which I believe is the true case of cherry picking.

You're right, the overall homicide decrease, while noticeable, hasn't been a massive improvement, and I should have been more specific from the start when it comes to reducing gun-related loss of life. Namely that of mass murders.

Now, let me ask you this. Why do Americans need semi-automatic and automatic firearms?

A few rules for your reply:
1. No deflecting the topic by shifting focus to other causes of death.
2. No saying you need automatic firearms to defend against other automatic firearms since that's a circular argument.
3. No falling back on it being written on some arbitrary old piece of paper.

Go.

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This post has been edited by Micky C: 29 January 2017 - 03:41 PM

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User is online   Trooper Dan 

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#192

I am locking this thread, because it is just generic political argument now and there are other threads for that. Everyone is welcome to continue the discussion in one of the established political threads, and copy/paste anything they have written. There's nothing wrong with the original thread topic, but no one seems interested in it anymore.

@Micky: The lock is no disrespect to your post, it just happens that yours was the last when the music stopped in this particular game of musical chairs.
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