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Weapon balancing mod  "Do you like vanilla or do you use custom settings?"

User is offline   Adamputee 

#1

Hey guys, Duke 3D is old, we know that... So I was thinking, how would you re-balance the weapons for 2016. Also, assume that auto-aim is disabled.

This is what I would propose:
Mighty Foot - should at least have 25 damage to kill a trooper in 2 kicks, pig cop in 4 (steel-toe boots + Duke is TOUGH)
Pistol - double the damage to 12, to actually give it some purpose (i.e. better than the chaingun at long distance?)
Shotgun - maybe a wider spread, but since it's the pig cops weapon, possibly shouldn't be touched
Chaingun Cannon - same as above ^ (but enforcer)
RPG - heavily overpowered, only gun needed to finish the game :/ would be better as the Duke 64 (mod) grenade launcher
- same weapon, just grenade projectile instead... otherwise, as a rocket launcher - reduce the damage to 100 so only a direct hit would kill a pig cop
Pipe Bomb - double damage, double radius - needs an advantage over the RPG (or grenade launcher)
Shrinker - slow to use... double the blast radius
Expander - awesome gun, very limited ammo though... double the ammo pickup amount OR would be great to have it slowly regenerate ammo (mod)
Devastator - seems to be balanced well enough (whilst auto-aim is off)
Laser Tripbomb - seem pointless to me, possibly should be throw-able and faster??? PSX port had it as an item - much better
Freezethrower - slow to use... double the damage (and FREEZERHURTOWNER off)

What do you guys think? Would be great to get your opinions on this ;)
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User is offline   NNC 

#2

Shotgun, Chaingun, RPG, Pipebombs and Devastator don't need any modifications, they are excellent weapons. Well, RPG and Pipebombs should have lower ammo limit, like 10 only. That would make some bosses nastier. Also, it would be a bit more realistic, as they are too heavy to carry.

Pistol is also good as it is now, as it's main function is to shoot distant enemies, especially turrets. Auto-aim makes the pistol much more valuable though. Ammo count should be 192, as it can be divided by 48.

Shrinker needs a bigger radius hence it could shrink minibosses with ease. With that it would be an excellent weapon. Now they are mostly usable against Commanders.

The Freezer is a fun weapon, not the best one, but I can use them in critical situations and it's great against Newbeasts and other heavy enemies. Not sure what kind of upgrade it needs... IMHO It shouldn't have an ammo counter, but more like in DNF, they should auto-load into 99.

The two secondary weapons, the Expander and now the Incinerator are weaker then their primary weapons, but I actually like them. Incinerator is great against Enforcers and Pigcops, and Expander is a bit like Freezer, a bit less effective, but can bomb enemies. It's the best weapon against egg and liztroop hordes. Try it in the end of Golden Carnage, and watch the result.

So, the Shrinker radius aside, and maybe some ammo counter fixes, I can't see any need of upgrades to these weapons.

What's left are the two useless stuff: Mighty foot and Tripbomb. The former is a really lousy melee weapon, and should be replaced with something else, like the Chainsaw in Doom. The tripbomb is nothing else, but an annoyance, and should be replaced with something else too. Railgun anyone?

This post has been edited by Nancsi: 30 October 2016 - 03:16 AM

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User is offline   Adamputee 

#3

You've got some good ideas but I was thinking re-balancing the weapons for no auto-aim, like modern fps games - or at least with a very VERY small amount of auto-aim (if that's possible with a mod).
I don't think realism should come into play ;) and I like that you can carry loads of ammo
I don't know about you, but I never use the pistol AT ALL! Ok yeah maybe against distant turrets if the chaingun is empty
The DNF freezer is actually a much better option - maybe it would switch to DNF style when the projectile ammo has ran out or secondary-fire...
The incinerator was just novelty, unless it gets merged into eduke32 HRP, we can just ignore it haha
Talking about a minimal-mod (a modern re-balanced version) - we shouldn't be (fully) replacing anything
Also keep in mind, how these changes would affect multiplayer - that should be priority really (i.e. DNF pistol was still competitive)
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User is offline   NNC 

#4

Pistol is THE anti-turret weapon, but it's also good against distant troopers, sharks and slimers. Even against distant Pigcops.

Incinerator needs to be learned properly. I loved using it against Pigcops and Enforcers, great counter against them.
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User is offline   Jmoc 

#5

Have a look at how DukePlus and War of Attrition tackled the weapon balance.
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User is offline   Adamputee 

#6

So I tried DukePlus - really really cool but I prefer to play close to the original (so only turned on a handful of options)
I tried out some of the settings I mentioned, and tested out a lot of DukePlus. My thoughts... Didn't really like the alternative weapons and mods except:
Akimbo pistols - should have been in the original game - I thought pistol at 9 damage felt right
Shotgun - double weapon spread - to ensure it stays a close range weapon
Chaingun overheating - better, but also annoying
Quick pipebombs - actually made them GOOD
Devastator alt-fire - awesome idea

Many of the options seemed to work really well
Though I do prefer to have the MIGHTY kick to be stronger (think Call Of Duty knife)

Also, idea... with the shrinker having a larger blast radius, seems to work well to do damage too
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User is offline   Danukem 

  • Duke Plus Developer

#7

Duke 3D was made in a time when fps weapons weren't intended to be balanced. Some weapons are just better than others, period. A lot of things have changed since 1996. Nowadays, shooters typically follow the model of games like Borderlands and Destiny, where each class of weapon is more-or-less equal to every other class of weapon, but has its own niche. Then the player has various upgrades and so do the weapons.
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#8

View PostTrooper Dan, on 31 October 2016 - 12:10 PM, said:

Duke 3D was made in a time when fps weapons weren't intended to be balanced. Some weapons are just better than others, period. A lot of things have changed since 1996. Nowadays, shooters typically follow the model of games like Borderlands and Destiny, where each class of weapon is more-or-less equal to every other class of weapon, but has its own niche. Then the player has various upgrades and so do the weapons.


Totally agree.

I would add that technically no matter what type of FPS you're playing the weapons are supposed to be well balanced right from the start since developers give it a serious thought, and having everything balanced the same or having bits of unbalance is intended and therefore rebalancing all the weapons would be a way to play the game the non-intended way (at least if that's the only thing you modify, if you change levels and such then it's a different story)
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User is offline   Adamputee 

#9

This - exactly ;)
Even DNF had the weapons balanced so that they are are almost all equal / better under certain conditions

Duke3D was made at a time where people didn't use a mouse for aiming haha (or at least weren't expected to use it)
So with that in mind, would you guys not think that the weapons should be re-balanced for mouse aiming, no auto-aim, high resolution + refresh rates?

But yeah you raised a point... anyway, episode 1 is kinda crappy for weapons (as it's basically only a demo)
- episode 1 with the extra guns added (mod) would be pretty cool (and the other monsters added too)
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User is offline   Danukem 

  • Duke Plus Developer

#10

View PostAdamputee, on 01 November 2016 - 10:14 AM, said:

- episode 1 with the extra guns added (mod) would be pretty cool (and the other monsters added too)


Try this. It's not a weapon balancing mod, but some of the changes to the weapons when at base level could be considered balancing. For example, you have different types of kicks if you press forward/back while kicking which are more damaging. Tripbombs can be stuck directly to monsters, making them more useful. The player moves more slowly and has a slower firing rate with the RPG (until you upgrade it). There are new weapons and you can choose one as a starting weapon. Attrition has a lot of the good stuff from DukePlus such as quick pipebomb, but builds on it. This is the mod I always go back to if I am inspired to mod Duke gameplay.
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