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Duke Nukem 3D: 20th Anniversary World Tour

User is offline   axl 

  • 77

#2671

View PostNightFright, on 25 October 2016 - 09:53 PM, said:

I can confirm now that finishing E1L7 "Faces of Death" when coming from E1L5 "The Abyss" indeed doesn't return you to E1L5, but E1L6 instead. This happens in spite of the fact that the E1L7 nukebutton has a lo-tag of 5, pointing to E1L5. If you play E1L7 as standalone (without playing any previous map), it works as intended.

My assumption: Hardcoded behavior. When finishing a secret level, the game assumes you don't want to return to the same level from which you came, but the next. I dunno how to solve this. Maybe with an exception added to the EDuke32 code? Or rather a fix to obey the nukebutton lo-tags instead of remembering where you came from and automatically skipping that map...

I have added this issue to my list.

*EDIT*
It is apparently indeed due to hardcoded behavior of the secret nukebutton, as noted here:

"If Duke3D believes we are on a secret level (because we last used a Secret Exit Nuke Button), it will treat exiting a level differently. Instead of doing what it normally would for any type of level exit, it will attempt to continue onward from the level which led us to the secret level. (technical: ud.level_number is set to ud.from_bonus, but, since we are advancing by one, there is no need to adjust for the base index difference). Now that Duke3D has returned to the normal level past the one it had stored, it no longer needs to remember that level and clears that storage. This also ensures that Duke3D will treat the new level as a normal level."

It's disturbing that nobody at Gearbox, including the old level designers, remembered this. Or they simply forgot maybe?


I assume this has been corrected as I have just completed the first episode in WT and after finishing Faces of Death it did return me to The Abyss (E1L5) and not E1L6 (Launch Facility). While this is more logical than warping you to E1L6, it still isn't the best solution as I can't imagine people wanting to play through The Abyss again after just completed it to get to Faces of Death...

Maybe it would have been better to put a Battlelord boss in the final room of Faces of Death instead of (again) a Mini Battlelord. This way one could end the first episode by just killing the Battlelord boss in Faces of Death.
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User is offline   gemeaux333 

  • -1

#2672

How do you access E1L7 ?
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User is offline   axl 

  • 77

#2673

View Postgemeaux333, on 08 August 2017 - 05:29 AM, said:

How do you access E1L7 ?


Before WT it was a dukematch only level and could only be accessed in the campaign by using the noclip cheat in The Abyss. As of Duke Nukem 3D: 20th Anniversary World Tour this level is now a regular secret level complete with a level exit that can be accessed without cheating:


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User is offline   HMNuke93 

  • 194

#2674

It has the PSX version's exit.
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User is offline   axl 

  • 77

#2675

View PostHMNuke93, on 08 August 2017 - 07:45 AM, said:

It has the PSX version's exit.


Nope. The exit in the PSX version is extremely well hidden. It is located in a hidden vent located on the opposite wall of the final room where the nuke button is in WT.

"Interestingly the level exits for Total Meltdown and World Tour are different. The Total Meltdown exit is notably more obscure as the developers added an extra room to accommodate the exit button whereas in World Tour the exit button was added without adding anymore rooms to the level."

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User is offline   gemeaux333 

  • -1

#2676

thanks
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User is offline   Nancsi 

  • 221

#2677

Was there a specific reason why they put the blue keycard under Todd's profile?
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User is offline   necroslut 

  • 156

#2678

World Tour is, IMO, the best FPS release in years. As sad as that is. The maps were fucking great, and, after playing through them several times, still hold up. No disrespect to the community, but the claim that the community pumps out better content on a weekly-or-so basis is frankly pure bullshit.
Lee's soundtrack was a fucking pearl too, and I'd definitely pay another 20$ for another episode like is - unlikely as it is.

Just a shame the Nerve guys didn't, seemingly, share the same level of enthusiasm or competence, and brought the whole package down.

This post has been edited by necroslut: 18 August 2017 - 02:27 PM

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User is offline   Micky C 

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#2679

View Postnecroslut, on 18 August 2017 - 02:27 PM, said:

the claim that the community pumps out better content on a weekly-or-so basis is frankly pure bullshit.


I don't think anybody ever claimed that. We don't even get weekly-or-so releases let alone ones that blow quality out of the water.

The general claim was that over the last 20 years or so, the community has cumulatively compiled a large database of quality content which can be played for free, a decent chunk of it could be argued as being on par with or better than WT.

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1

User is offline   spessu_sb 

  • 72

#2680

View Postnecroslut, on 18 August 2017 - 02:27 PM, said:

Just a shame the Nerve guys didn't, seemingly, share the same level of enthusiasm or competence, and brought the whole package down.

Exactly due to this technical side of things, I haven't gotten this release. I did try it and the mouse input was horrible, there was forced autoaim, low quality audio bug and first map didn't impress me really because it gave some Serious Sam vibes instead (hordes over quality individual placed enemy encounters). I also have heard mixed opinions about the rest of the levels, thus I haven't bothered. I will probably be more interested to play it once/if the whole package gets fully compatible with eduke32 eventually.
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User is offline   necroslut 

  • 156

#2681

View PostMicky C, on 18 August 2017 - 03:02 PM, said:

I don't think anybody ever claimed that. We don't even get weekly-or-so releases let alone ones that blow quality out of the water.

The general claim was that over the last 20 years or so, the community has cumulatively compiled a large database of quality content which can be played for free, a decent chunk of it could be argued as being on par with or better than WT.

You haven't seen the Steam forums, then... I think I'm, after all these years, fairly acquaintanced with the Duke mod scene, and honestly, I can't think of that many releases that rival this. Not meant in any way as a disrespect to the community, there is plenty of good and great stuff, but I can't think of that much that rivals this in map design, honestly. If we look past technical stuff.

View Postspessu_sb, on 18 August 2017 - 03:07 PM, said:

Exactly due to this technical side of things, I haven't gotten this release. I did try it and the mouse input was horrible, there was forced autoaim, low quality audio bug and first map didn't impress me really because it gave some Serious Sam vibes instead (hordes over quality individual placed enemy encounters). I also have heard mixed opinions about the rest of the levels, thus I haven't bothered. I will probably be more interested to play it once/if the whole package gets fully compatible with eduke32 eventually.

The forced autoaim and sound quality was fixed in a patch though.
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User is offline   Zaxx 

  • 29

#2682

View Postnecroslut, on 18 August 2017 - 02:27 PM, said:

Just a shame the Nerve guys didn't, seemingly, share the same level of enthusiasm or competence, and brought the whole package down.

I don't think Nerve is at fault here honestly and I have a whole library of Gearbox games to support that theory: QA and post-release support is generally very shitty when it comes to Gearbox. Sure, World Tour has issues but it's nothing a few patches couldn't iron out... but Gearbox just does not want to spend money on those patches. When it comes to Nerve they made quite good ports of Wolf 3D and Doom 1-2 to XBLA and No Rest for the Living was a truly great level pack for Doom 2.

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 18 August 2017 - 04:43 PM

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User is offline   necroslut 

  • 156

#2683

View PostZaxx, on 18 August 2017 - 04:40 PM, said:

I don't think Nerve is at fault here honestly and I have a whole library of Gearbox games to support that theory: QA and post-release support is generally very shitty when it comes to Gearbox. Sure, World Tour has issues but it's nothing a few patches couldn't iron out... but Gearbox just does not want to spend money on those patches.

Well, several of the coding/design problems in World Tour shouldn't even have needed QA - the person who coded the boss should have realized even before it was implemented that a boss that only has short range attacks and doesn't attempt to move up close to use them simply won't work. Likewise that the incinerator would be overpowered. It shouldn't even have gone to QA, it should have been addressed in his head even before it was implemented.

And bugs like the incinerator turning minibosses invulnerable should be a 2-minute fix and should have been noticed immediately - the episode has a ton of minibosses and it's hardly an uncommon bug.

This post has been edited by necroslut: 18 August 2017 - 04:44 PM

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User is offline   Hendricks266 

  • EDuke32 Senior Developer
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  #2684

The difference is that Duke Nukem 3D's code wasn't written by John Carmack. We warned them that starting over was the wrong move.
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User is offline   Zaxx 

  • 29

#2685

View Postnecroslut, on 18 August 2017 - 04:43 PM, said:

Well, several of the coding/design problems in World Tour shouldn't even have needed QA - the person who coded the boss should have realized even before it was implemented that a boss that only has short range attacks and doesn't attempt to move up close to use them simply won't work. Likewise that the incinerator would be overpowered. It shouldn't even have gone to QA, it should have been addressed in his head even before it was implemented.

And bugs like the incinerator turning minibosses invulnerable should be a 2-minute fix and should have been noticed immediately - the episode has a ton of minibosses and it's hardly an uncommon bug.

I'd just like you to let one thing sink in: the sound quality issue got through QA. The whole thing just screams rushed development paired up with incompetent QA and I find it really interesting that Nerve, a company that is known for producing quality content makes basically its first misstep with a game "developed" by Gearbox (Aliens: Colonial Marines, though there were a lot of other developers there :DDD) and its second one, WT, published by Gearbox. The guys who made Doom 3: Resurrection of Evil and Quake Wars can't make a decent enough port and a polished level pack for Duke 3D? How does that happen?

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 18 August 2017 - 04:57 PM

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User is offline   necroslut 

  • 156

#2686

View PostHendricks266, on 18 August 2017 - 04:55 PM, said:

The difference is that Duke Nukem 3D's code wasn't written by John Carmack. We warned them that starting over was the wrong move.

I don't think that explains simple con errors though. I wasn't really talking about the rendering, netcode/multiplayer or that more technical stuff, because that's obviously complicated shit.
But also things like I think there's a total of one (1) new breakable sprite, and that's one that probably shouldn't even be breakable...

Most of the things I mentioned aren't even programming issues, they're game design issues. Incompetent game design. Rushed isn't even an excuse.

This post has been edited by necroslut: 18 August 2017 - 05:02 PM

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User is offline   Duke Legacy 

  • 994

#2687

I agree with Hendricks266 all the way they shouldn't have made another version of Duke 3D, instead they should have continue with EDuke32 since it was already on Steam to begin with or megaton instead of making us pay for another one.


even know I did like eps 5 and the plot of duke travel to different locations france russia, I think they should have there own eps Like how Duke out in Dc was.

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1

User is offline   NUKEMDAVE 

  • 477

#2688

Yeah, the right move would've been to add on to Megaton Edition. All they had to do was add Alien World Order as DLC, but nope. The fact they wouldn't take advice on World Tour seriously worries me about anything else they do in the future.
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User is online   MusicallyInspired 

  • 2,413

#2689

They were most likely trying to get out of the obligation of paying royalties like 3DR shirked out of before the Great Acquisition and Great Exodus.

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User is offline   Zaxx 

  • 29

#2690

View PostNUKEMDAVE, on 18 August 2017 - 07:57 PM, said:

Yeah, the right move would've been to add on to Megaton Edition. All they had to do was add Alien World Order as DLC, but nope. The fact they wouldn't take advice on World Tour seriously worries me about anything else they do in the future.

Well I dunno, I have to say I really don't think that Megaton was a release of any particular value apart from the fact that it included all the expansions. It was based on Jonof's old port instead of ED32, it really did not run all that well (I always had stuttering, the same I have in SW Classic Redux, I think it has to do something with the high res UI they forgot to optimize), it had jarring graphical problems (for example they did not do anything with the goddamn skyboxes so they just looked like shit in their 3D renderer) and widescreen support was basically non-existent (in widescreen resolutions you had no FoV correction which resulted in a decrease in vertical FoV, essentially rendering the game unplayable if you're sensitive to that stuff). Multiplayer was also late and not really good when it finally arrived. Megaton was a really poor port, I bought it just so I could play the expansions with EDuke32 and to give Devolver some money because I like Devolver.

WT on the other hand at least has some effort put into it: the new content is fun, they made a nice little DX11 renderer, added 3D skyboxes, fixed some issues with in the old levels, restored the second secret level of E1 etc. There are problems with it, I think the community would have been supported a lot more if they'd only improve EDuke32 instead of making a new port from scratch, I don't like that the expansions are missing and as the one millionth re-release of Duke 3D it's overpriced as fuck but it's hands down better than Megaton.

This does not mean I like how Gearbox handled it however: in my opinion if you re-release a game like Duke 3D you have to do that by embracing the community that supports it instead of just going your own way and marketing it like it's meant to please people who never had the chance to play Duke 3D before. That demographic simply does not exist and that's why the game was a giant flop. The funny thing? They did it again with Bulletstorm... I'm sure the sales are through the roof, I mean who wouldn't love the idea of paying full price for an old game? Gearbox Publishing is so dead in the water and clueless that it's not even funny.

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 18 August 2017 - 08:37 PM

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User is offline   Duke Legacy 

  • 994

#2691

I know the history of Megaton it was a complete mess on release worst then World Tour ever was When Megaton came up it didn't have it multiplayer, we had to wait agood 4 to 5 months intil it was release, But problems didn't stop there tons of issues appeared like out of sync bug issues and the add on eps didn't have mp support yet

I don't really blame them General Arcade or the people that made Megaton sure the thing had issues at the start but they were fix most of them anyway some of them are still there but hey those guys can't be on Duke 3d forever they have tons of games to do Sam Series SW and more

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User is offline   Nancsi 

  • 221

#2692

If Gearbox wants to fix the issues around WT, they will release a definitive edition which costs $20 as well, and it's completely free for WT owners.

The definitive edition should replace all active sprites with 3D models for the renderer mode (optionally you can turn them off), fix all notable issues like the sound loop in Abyss, and even some things from the past like the palette enemy respawns etc. Of couse these fixes might include the fixes of Firefly, and the Boss5 problem, maybe even adding new proper graphics for them.

Also they should make all 3 expansions and even Plug and Pray for the Steam Workshop available, and might be a wishful dreaming, but a new 6th episode would be awesome as well. I'm not sure Blum and Levelord is still interested though.

This post has been edited by Nancsi: 18 August 2017 - 11:24 PM

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User is offline   axl 

  • 77

#2693

View PostZaxx, on 18 August 2017 - 08:28 PM, said:

Well I dunno, I have to say I really don't think that Megaton was a release of any particular value apart from the fact that it included all the expansions. It was based on Jonof's old port instead of ED32, it really did not run all that well (I always had stuttering, the same I have in SW Classic Redux, I think it has to do something with the high res UI they forgot to optimize), it had jarring graphical problems (for example they did not do anything with the goddamn skyboxes so they just looked like shit in their 3D renderer) and widescreen support was basically non-existent (in widescreen resolutions you had no FoV correction which resulted in a decrease in vertical FoV, essentially rendering the game unplayable if you're sensitive to that stuff). Multiplayer was also late and not really good when it finally arrived. Megaton was a really poor port, I bought it just so I could play the expansions with EDuke32 and to give Devolver some money because I like Devolver.


Indeed. Megaton and Classic Redux both give me severe stuttering and don't run smooth at all. World Tour is indeed a lot more stable and smooth, but, the gameplay is, in my opinion, severely hindered by its awful mousewheel / weaponwheel. Luckily we have EDuke32. Sadly, we don't have a definitive port for Shadow Warrior (yet).
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User is offline   necroslut 

  • 156

#2694

View PostNancsi, on 18 August 2017 - 11:21 PM, said:

If Gearbox wants to fix the issues around WT, they will release a definitive edition which costs $20 as well, and it's completely free for WT owners.

The definitive edition should replace all active sprites with 3D models for the renderer mode (optionally you can turn them off), fix all notable issues like the sound loop in Abyss, and even some things from the past like the palette enemy respawns etc. Of couse these fixes might include the fixes of Firefly, and the Boss5 problem, maybe even adding new proper graphics for them.

Also they should make all 3 expansions and even Plug and Pray for the Steam Workshop available, and might be a wishful dreaming, but a new 6th episode would be awesome as well. I'm not sure Blum and Levelord is still interested though.

So you want them to remake all the graphics to modern standards and sell it for 20$ or give it away for free? That sure sounds realistic...

Indeed Megaton was never a great port and the amount of "love" it gets these days is both unwarranted and surprising. The only thing it ever had over EDuke32 was multiplayer - it was a fork of a decade-old source port where 95% of it's features were already for free.

The people that criticize World Tour's mousewheel should probably remember how it worked in the original game (as well as Megaton). It was changed in EDuke32 to allow scrolling through multiple weapons quickly, but the original way was pretty useless for scrolling more than one slot up/down, as you had to let each weapon fully draw and lower, making it really clunky to go from, say, the shotgun to the shrinker, using the wheel.
With World Tour being intended to be played on a console, with a controller that doesn't have room for hotkeys*, it wouldn't really have been playable.

*The often-ridiculed numpad was the one good thing the Atari Jaguar brought to the table, I honestly think it's a shame no other controllers ever used that idea. It could be incredibly useful for inventory management, something that is often very clumsy on consoles.

This post has been edited by necroslut: 19 August 2017 - 04:13 AM

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User is offline   Tea Monster 

  • Polymancer
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#2695

View PostNancsi, on 18 August 2017 - 11:21 PM, said:

... but a new 6th episode would be awesome as well. I'm not sure Blum and Levelord is still interested though.


Considering that everyone, very publicly slated it and said that it wasn't worth buying and that they "Might pick it up on Steam if it's cheap", then probably not.
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User is offline   axl 

  • 77

#2696

View Postnecroslut, on 19 August 2017 - 04:04 AM, said:

The people that criticize World Tour's mousewheel should probably remember how it worked in the original game (as well as Megaton). It was changed in EDuke32 to allow scrolling through multiple weapons quickly, but the original way was pretty useless for scrolling more than one slot up/down, as you had to let each weapon fully draw and lower, making it really clunky to go from, say, the shotgun to the shrinker, using the wheel.
With World Tour being intended to be played on a console, with a controller that doesn't have room for hotkeys*, it wouldn't really have been playable.


Well, if I remember correctly, mousewheel support was completely absent in the original game. I just used the numpad to switch weapons. The goal of modern ports is to make sure older games continue to work smoothly on modern computers combined with the possibility of modern controls.

The problem in WT is that its weaponwheel is very unresponsive and sometimes just doesn't react at all (even when I'm just scrolling down slowly for the next weapon in line... and not even multiple weapons quickly). If it is important for consoles, they could have made the wheel optional for the PC port.

Anyway, I'll stop nagging right now cause I really think the new episode is a very welcome addition to the duke nukem saga and is the best thing we got for Duke in years.

This post has been edited by axl: 19 August 2017 - 05:10 AM

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User is offline   necroslut 

  • 156

#2697

View Postaxl, on 19 August 2017 - 05:09 AM, said:

Well, if I remember correctly, mousewheel support was completely absent in the original game. I just used the numpad to switch weapons. The goal of modern ports is to make sure older games continue to work smoothly on modern computers combined with the possibility of modern controls.

The problem in WT is that its weaponwheel is very unresponsive and sometimes just doesn't react at all (even when I'm just scrolling down slowly for the next weapon in line... and not even multiple weapons quickly). If it is important for consoles, they could have made the wheel optional for the PC port.

Anyway, I'll stop nagging right now cause I really think the new episode is a very welcome addition to the duke nukem saga and is the best thing we got for Duke in years.

Mousewheel input wasn't supported, but it did have keys for next/previous weapon, which is what was bound to the mousewheel in other ports. EDuke32 is really the only version where it's actually useful to scroll more than one step, in Megaton for instance it's just too slow to be very useful due to what I mentioned above. It does seem unresponsive, though, like you often have to scroll twice as far as you'd think.

My point wasn't that the weapon scroll thing in WorldTour was great, just that people have seemingly forgotten it was arguably even worse in other versions, including Megaton.

Tea Monster said:

Considering that everyone, very publicly slated it and said that it wasn't worth buying and that they "Might pick it up on Steam if it's cheap", then probably not.

Indeed, and a lot of those people seemingly never even tried it... It's such a shame and you guys fucking suck, you might have cost us another excellent expansion episode.

This post has been edited by necroslut: 19 August 2017 - 05:21 AM

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User is offline   axl 

  • 77

#2698

View PostTea Monster, on 19 August 2017 - 04:55 AM, said:

Considering that everyone, very publicly slated it and said that it wasn't worth buying and that they "Might pick it up on Steam if it's cheap", then probably not.


I thought that the greatest criticism was aimed at the high price, the absence of the 3 expansion packs and some of the programming (the last boss etc...) but recall that most people praised the new levels and the music. I hope in fact that Blum and Levelord are aware of this fact. Lee Jackson is, as he frequently visits the forums.
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User is offline   Zaxx 

  • 29

#2699

View PostTea Monster, on 19 August 2017 - 04:55 AM, said:

Considering that everyone, very publicly slated it and said that it wasn't worth buying and that they "Might pick it up on Steam if it's cheap", then probably not.

WT is overpriced and that's just a fact. Honestly all Gearbox had to do was give a 50% discount to Megaton owners, then people would have shut up and paid 10 bucks for the extra episode gladly.
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User is offline   necroslut 

  • 156

#2700

View Postaxl, on 19 August 2017 - 05:29 AM, said:

I thought that the greatest criticism was aimed at the high price, the absence of the 3 expansion packs and some of the programming (the last boss etc...) but recall that most people praised the new levels and the music. I hope in fact that Blum and Levelord are aware of this fact. Lee Jackson is, as he frequently visits the forums.

Here, maybe, mostly... Though there was also a lot of extreme nitpicking and some outright retardedness. But outside these forums, such as the Steam forums, the reception was even harsher, Lots of mentions of "cheap cash grabs", greedy jews, the new episode being low quality which anyone could have spat out in a weekend, generally being far inferior to the almighty Megaton, Gearbox being the worst company ever, Gearbox should give the Duke IP away and so on. Considering how more or less unprecedented this kind of release, not just making new content for a classic game but bringing back the original development team to do so

View PostZaxx, on 19 August 2017 - 06:46 AM, said:

WT is overpriced and that's just a fact. Honestly all Gearbox had to do was give a 50% discount to Megaton owners, then people would have shut up and paid 10 bucks for the extra episode gladly.

Overpriced compared to what? To Megaton, which cost almost nothing to develop? Or compared to its development budget? Because it still hasn't made back it's development costs, according to Randy, so that doesn't really sound like it was overpriced, and it's certainly not a "fact".
If they sliced the price in half it would have needed to sell twice as many copies, which is far from a guarantee.

Gearbox can't be expected to eat up the costs while Devolver gets the profits. But there are apparently a lot of people, or at least a vocal group, who really thinks Gearbox owe them personally. Be it for Aliens CM, DNF, Gamergate, I'm not sure what exactly.

This post has been edited by necroslut: 19 August 2017 - 08:51 AM

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