[Danukem]

This thread could be a conversation, or it could consist of me talking to myself until I run out of things to say -- I'm fine with it either way. I've been thinking about what it takes to get a modding project done in one's spare time and why it so often doesn't work out. A map, a mutator, a TC, any number of things can be a modding project. Statistically, I'm pretty sure that the majority (perhaps even the vast majority) of projects that start never finish. Why is that?

A mod can fail in concept or in execution. Conceptual failure happens in two ways: either the concept is so unclear that at some point you realize you don't know what you are doing, or the concept is so flawed that you realize it was just a bad idea. There's lots of ways that can happen, but if you are competent then you will either fix the conceptual problem or abandon the flawed project before it wastes much of your time. My interest today is in failure of execution. In particular, the failure to finish. This is where the vast majority of promising mods fail.

Projects that are conceptually sound fail to get finished because their creators either don't have the necessary resources, or they mismanage their resources. When I say "resource" I mean it in the broadest sense, which makes what I just said quite trivial. What's not trivial is that creators often don't realize that their own motivation to work on the project is a resource. Many creators also don't know how to manage that resource.

Competent creators know a thing or two about managing projects. A typical creator knows, for example, that if he/she doesn't have the skills necessary to complete the project him/herself, then he/she had better have someone reliable on the team who does have those skills (it's also important to have a backup plan in that case, since "reliable" people sometimes aren't!). But that same creator often makes the mistake of assuming that his/her own motivation to work on the project is an unlimited resource. It isn't. And unless you understand what motivates you and how to maintain motivation, you will most likely fail.

Here's a few facts about my own motivation when working on modding projects:

• I am more motivated when the project I am working on is fun for ME to play.
  
• I gain motivation when I can enjoy positive results at the end of each individual session of working on the project.
  
• I gain motivation when I am able to create something new, rather than duplicating something that already exists (either my own work or someone else's).
  
• I lose motivation when I have to do something tedious and repetitive without seeing a big positive result.
  
• I lose motivation when I have to expend effort on maintaining or fixing something that I thought I was finished with.
  
• I lose motivation when I expend effort to try to get other people to do things.

What are some things that make you gain or lose motivation?

Modding doesn't pay, so if you aren't motivated to do it, you won't. If your to-do list on your project includes a lot of stuff that make you lose motivation, but not a lot of stuff to gain it back, then you will most likely lose steam and quit. If this is a problem, then consider changing your project or your project priorities so that your motivation stays high. Otherwise, you won't get it done.

[MusicallyInspired]

In the past I've started projects that I thought would impress people. For a while that was enough to sustain the motivation, but if I wasn't really invested in the idea myself it would die out. Lately I haven't really worked on any projects because I don't want to fall back into that pit of peer validation. Sometimes learning how to overcome problems or even how to accomplish my vision would help as well, even if I wasn't particularly interested in the outcome personally. I can't do that anymore. I've got to do things entirely on my own terms. Then depending on if I want to see it finished bad enough, I might go through with it. But I've got a whole slew of WIP project skeletons in my closet and I dare not open the door lest it all comes tumbling down on me...

[Robman]

I agree with all the things you listed.

I've been pecking away at an SW mod for some years now. Motivation comes and goes. It's not really a set theme so I have no real rules I have to adhere to although I do have an expanded texture set I'm using. Anyway, this lets me map and allows my mind to wander and build whatever it is I would like.

I like to think of mapping as a creative outlet, similar to painting a picture or whatever. It's an exercise for the mind and it's taken me too damn long to learn how to build Sw maps so why stop now I guess.

Will people like my mod? Who knows. I've tried to keep learning new things and generally I work on a map until the limits are met as it's seems to be difficult for me to call a map finished until the option of working on it further is taken away, lol. If it means anything, you can be sure I've played any of the given maps I've made thousands of times, which I'm sure applies to everyone. I figure maybe Lo Wang's 20th anniversary could be a date to set for release.

[Hank]

Not sure if it fits.
Modding, somehow the word put's me off. I love creating things from scratch. Be it models, levels or even textures.

Pro Motivation:
Ability to let my imagination go places.
Ability to explore new techniques.
Last but not least
Feedback. The hope we are on the right track and people will like it, goes for miles.

Con Motivation:
Doing stuff and realizing to late that some of it has a fatal flaw, and you need to do a 100% redo.

[Mark]

There is one thing that can both motivate or discourage. Checking out screenshots or video of a high quality game such as Skyrim when I was making a medieval themed map for WGR2. Some times it motivates me by wanting to do something similar in Eduke. But most times I get discouraged ( luckily for only a short time ) that I'll never come close to replicating the same level of quality in Eduke.

That same kind of thing applied to Graveyard and Decay that I worked on. There were lots and lots of great zombie games and mods to drool over and then I went back to what I was making and for a short time it seemed lackluster. But my love for modding triumphs over all.

The biggest mistake I have made over the years, and I still haven't learned my lesson, is taking on too many projects at the same time. They all end up taking 5 times as long to finish and when spread out over the course of many months or even years it almost seems a chore to stay caught up and not get burned out.

[Danukem]

MusicallyInspired, on 09 May 2016 - 01:58 PM, said:

In the past I've started projects that I thought would impress people. For a while that was enough to sustain the motivation, but if I wasn't really invested in the idea myself it would die out. Lately I haven't really worked on any projects because I don't want to fall back into that pit of peer validation.

Yeah, approval from others works best if it is the icing on the cake, not when it is your main motivation. I'm going to post more about that later.

Robman, on 09 May 2016 - 04:01 PM, said:

I agree with all the things you listed.

I've been pecking away at an SW mod for some years now. Motivation comes and goes. It's not really a set theme so I have no real rules I have to adhere to although I do have an expanded texture set I'm using. Anyway, this lets me map and allows my mind to wander and build whatever it is I would like.

I like to think of mapping as a creative outlet, similar to painting a picture or whatever. It's an exercise for the mind and it's taken me too damn long to learn how to build Sw maps so why stop now I guess.

You have a different, more casual approach than I do, which is perfectly legitimate. For some reason I almost always feel a sense of urgency with my projects (unless it is an old project that has already had multiple releases).

Hank, on 09 May 2016 - 04:18 PM, said:

Not sure if it fits.
Modding, somehow the word put's me off. I love creating things from scratch. Be it models, levels or even textures.

*snip*

Con Motivation:
Doing stuff and realizing to late that some of it has a fatal flaw, and you need to do a 100% redo.

Modding is just what I call it when the released project is going to be based on an existing game. One thing I have found liberating is the realization that quality and novelty are independent of each other. I can make something good that has nothing original in it (just a different blend of old ideas, well executed). I can make something original that is a piece of shit. I find it generally works best to include a little bit of innovation, but stick with the tried and true for the most part.

100% redos can be devastating. If you find yourself doing that a lot, you may be a perfectionist. If you never find yourself doing that, then you may have low standards, or just be extremely talented. Most of my wasted work has been the result of a failure to survey the landscape before starting something. For example, working hard on a custom texture and not doing a very good job, only to notice that the perfect texture was already sitting there ready to use. Coding an elaborate workaround because I didn't know that commands already existed to do exactly what I wanted.

Mark., on 09 May 2016 - 04:31 PM, said:

There is one thing that can both motivate or discourage. Checking out screenshots or video of a high quality game such as Skyrim when I was making a medieval themed map for WGR2. Some times it motivates me by wanting to do something similar in Eduke. But most times I get discouraged ( luckily for only a short time ) that I'll never come close to replicating the same level of quality in Eduke.

That same kind of thing applied to Graveyard and Decay that I worked on. There were lots and lots of great zombie games and mods to drool over and then I went back to what I was making and for a short time it seemed lackluster. But my love for modding triumphs over all.

The biggest mistake I have made over the years, and I still haven't learned my lesson, is taking on too many projects at the same time. They all end up taking 5 times as long to finish and when spread out over the course of many months or even years it almost seems a chore to stay caught up and not get burned out.

2 modding projects is my max at a given time and I only really focus on one at a time. Because yeah, the alternative is very inefficient.

As for comparing your work to professional games: The remedy for that is to have a well-defined niche where your style and capabilities are acceptable and desirable. Try not to put your work in a position where it will be directly compared with a AAA title.

[Hank]

Trooper Dan, on 09 May 2016 - 07:51 PM, said:

Modding is just what I call it when the released project is going to be based on an existing game. One thing I have found liberating is the realization that quality and novelty are independent of each other. I can make something good that has nothing original in it (just a different blend of old ideas, well executed). I can make something original that is a piece of shit. I find it generally works best to include a little bit of innovation, but stick with the tried and true for the most part.

100% redos can be devastating. If you find yourself doing that a lot, you may be a perfectionist. If you never find yourself doing that, then you may have low standards, or just be extremely talented. Most of my wasted work has been the result of a failure to survey the landscape before starting something. For example, working hard on a custom texture and not doing a very good job, only to notice that the perfect texture was already sitting there ready to use. Coding an elaborate workaround because I didn't know that commands already existed to do exactly what I wanted.

They say in Hollywood something like: 'You'll be hard pressed to find an original idea'. I only want to bring something new to the table, it does not need a brand new table all together. All my levels have to have an element in it that was not done before. Sure, some think it is shit and some find it a cool idea. This outlook keeps me ticking though, motivated.

As for the 100% redo, I feel for you, especially if the solution looked you right in the face. In my cases, it was my blatant ignorance. I am an amateur. Sample: My actors have to have a specific set up (bones/skeleton sequence and facial anim), just because they work in Maya(Blender etc) does not mean they work in a given engine. And their cloth, especially the way I did it, took way too much resources. - Some levels, they look good, but I assumed incorrectly that I can just fake 0 gravity, later, and made the pass with that in mind; ha ha ha, well, dead wrong. But hey, I learned stuff, thus not a total right off.

[Forge]

I guess because I like talking about "me", but maybe somebody else feels the same way and they can kind of relate.

I made a few maps (not good maps, but that's irrelevant)
I made them for me and my own self-satisfaction that I had learned to build maps
After about four of them I got burnt out, no longer found it satisfying. If anything, I found it tedious and a chore.
I didn't map for a few years.
A project came along and I was asked to make a map for it.
I made the map. I still found it a tedious chore, but I wasn't making it for me, I was making it for someone else.
That was probably the most well received map I made.

Kind of a two edged sword. You want to make something for others to enjoy, but also for your own satisfaction. If you put too much emphasis on only one desire you may find yourself disappointed.

Not very articulate, but maybe someone will get where I'm coming from

[Mark]

I get what you mean. Because its what I like and prefer, my projects are hi-res and Polymer with 3D models and custom non-original enemies. Any or all of those things turn some people off from playing my creation. But what I like comes first. Let the chips fall where they may. While there are a few software and vanilla mods I really liked and admired for creativity, I don't think I would be motivated enough to create a map like that.

[Hank]

@ Forge - sounds to me mapping is not your thing?

I use the phrase 'made for my enjoyment' that stuff, that simply failed but is still OK to be on the net.
Not sure if I am now articulate enough or not, but making things for one's own enjoyment is a given; otherwise it falls under the job category.

[offtopic]
@ Mark - love your stuff, but I don't want to get of a tangent here in this thread. For now just permit me: Those that dislike your work, can do a right-click < delete.
[/offtopic]

[Mark]

Thanks.

[Forge]

Hank, on 10 May 2016 - 03:50 PM, said:

@ Forge - sounds to me mapping is not your thing?

meh.
I lost the fun factor somewhere in the middle of my fourth map. It was kind of a combination between my attitude and the community's attitude at the time (mostly my attitude). I put myself in a state where my goals were unattainable and I was unsatisfied with my own work. Anyway, just slapped together the map enough to release at that point and called it quits.

So maybe my contribution to this thread is to keep your goals and expectations realistic.

@nobody&everybody
You can say that you make maps only for your own pleasure, but in all honesty you're hoping that at least a few people will like it when you release it.

[Danukem]

Forge, on 10 May 2016 - 07:00 PM, said:

@nobody&everybody
You can say that you make maps only for your own pleasure, but in all honesty you're hoping that at least a few people will like it when you release it.

First, your maps are quite good and I don't know why you keep saying they aren't. There's one in particular which has a large underwater section which I think is great, and I don't even like underwater maps normally.

As for your point: It made me think of Gambini, who made Duke maps off and on for many years without releasing anything. Then of course he finally did, and became the attention-whore prima donna that we all know and love

I agree that anyone who releases their work is doing it at least in part for positive feedback, myself included. But someone who doesn't enjoy the process and works mainly for the attention is in a terrible position. They will be miserable most of the time, and sooner or later they won't even get the attention they seek.

[Danukem]

I got some serious and detailed criticisms about Duke Forces over in the forum at Mod DB, and it made me think about another aspect of motivation: how to handle criticism. In this case it was useful and constructive criticism, but severe in certain respects. It is already proving very useful and it has helped me come up with a new list of things to work on and improve.

Here are the points I wanted to make about responding to criticism:

• You should have a firm understanding of the basic strengths and weaknesses of your work before you release it. If you can't be objective about it, then you won't respond well to criticism. That doesn't mean you will be able to anticipate what everyone will say, but it does mean that certain criticisms won't come as a complete shock. If you aren't centered and don't have an objective understanding of your work, then you will be buffeted around by feedback (both positive and negative) like a leaf in the wind.
  
• When receiving criticism, your goal should be to extract as much useful information from it as possible, and make the best possible changes as warranted. Responding to the critic is not the goal. On one extreme, you could pander to them and make the exact changes they say they want. On the other extreme, you could say they are wrong and do nothing. But both of those extremes make the mistake of focusing on the critic, instead of extracting and responding to useful information. Even if a criticism is "wrong" there is a good possibility that it contains useful information.

[Forge]

Some of the criticism is legitimate, but a significant portion of it is what that person "feels" would make it more fun or engaging for "him". (and only him)

You can't take everything everybody says about your work to heart. Accept the praise and condemnation with equal grace, and take in the good and bad criticisms mentioned with a realistic aspect.