#1 Posted 05 March 2016 - 03:16 PM
IMPORTANT: The map is heavily relies on use of jetpack, so watch for the fuel!
Before you play it I want to say that I'm glad that I finally released something. It's not as good and detailed as Bridge Between Two Islands, and it's not very good from a techical standpoint (there are a lot of misaligned textures - I really tried to fix it, but there are still a lot of them), but I have a lot of fun while making it. Thanks to Merlijn, Sixty Four and Zykov Eddy for beta-testing!
This post has been edited by Sanek: 06 March 2016 - 05:10 AM
#2 Posted 05 March 2016 - 05:12 PM
By the way press shift + f5 during gameplay to change the music (I changed it to snake1.mid, fits pretty well) so you don't have to listen to that incredible dull dethtoll crap.
#3 Posted 05 March 2016 - 06:20 PM
I was actually thinking about big boss battle on the top of that mountain, but I decided to end it there, because I was afraid I would mess it up.
#4 Posted 06 March 2016 - 05:26 AM
While the design isn't as detailed as some of your other work, the immense scale of the map and the gameplay make up for it.
And the jetpack is well implemented. The beach town is probably my favorite part.
#5 Posted 09 March 2016 - 08:30 AM
#6 Posted 09 March 2016 - 09:32 AM
I remember someone commenting earlier about how Battlelord Jr's aren't really intended to be end-of-level bosses even though they are used in that manner by mappers. I think I'd concur with that assessment. Not every map needs to end with a boss battle.
Keep Radar away!
#7 Posted 10 March 2016 - 06:51 AM
I've never been so humiliated in my entire mapping life. I don't except that everybody will like my map, but calling it lazy and annoying really hurt me. The rating is not fair. The map is anything but lazy - if I don't feel like I can finish the map, I'll just abandon it. But such reviews just ruins all the fun that I have while I was mapping and feel like all my work is not worth it.
I put all my effort into that map, called the testers to check it, and tried to make the map look good and grand, and after that I read such a thing. He either don't like me personally, or he's just mean SOB.
This post has been edited by Sanek: 10 March 2016 - 06:57 AM
#8 Posted 10 March 2016 - 07:07 AM
#9 Posted 10 March 2016 - 08:56 AM
And I don't think it's meant to be personal.
Remember, Mikko didn't like Siebenpolis either (which had a similar premise). I don't think this type of gameplay is his cup of tea.
#10 Posted 10 March 2016 - 04:15 PM
Be that as it may, calling it "lazy" is inevitably more of an attack on the mapper more than it is an attack on the content of the map.
Keep Radar away!
#11 Posted 10 March 2016 - 04:44 PM
A lot of the map also consists of hunting for buttons which really is a lazy way to implement puzzles.
^map related, but just an opinion. button puzzles have been a staple of Duke3D since 1996.
Maybe Mikko could have been more specific as to what was bad about it - Frustrating like a Billy Boy map, Annoying like the user map, 'We Store Your Crap', or just spread out in a random illogical pattern in order to make the map more drawn out than it needs to be.
After a bunch of half-assed and aborted projects, Sanek is back with an okay if quite a flawed map.
but it still reeks of laziness like some many of Sanek's recent projects.
^this is judging the mappers character, not the map
also, each map should be approached as an individual work. previous releases should not even be considered.
(unless it's part of a map pak/episode series like adg)
This post has been edited by Forge: 10 March 2016 - 04:49 PM
#12 Posted 11 March 2016 - 10:43 PM
Hehheh they really have been I'm surprised in Mikko for this only. Because even he said to me ..we may take the original layouts and progress methods for granted... this is true right here to. Nothing like an explosion, switches, and keycards sorry if it gets old its what's mostly available and it can't be punished I agree... But getting mad at Mikko over it its probably just because he is the only one reviewing maps. Don't take that for granted either and again its just one view he has done a lot of work for Duke I believe so you just have to respect the view. It would probably help if there was 3 reviewers at least.
Just remember that reviews are one personal view but don't be mad at Mikko bud.. Most reviewers are also mappers and most people got different styles/vibes. Its like I said probably for the 100th time if you had fun making this, your good to go. It does help when there is more reviewers and not just one. I really should do some reviews on cgs I even started a few but I am still very active I got plans lets just say that. But whenever I play all you guys maps (and I play every release when I can) I review it in my head actually. If I only just sat down I personally think I could write a respectable review Forge I know you got some left in the tank :s I hope so because..hehe
Anyways, this map surprised me because it was so open and huge I mean if that's not exploration tell me what is I got lost. But there is however some things that can be improved attempting a wide open map with outdoor areas is another thing on its own. You did pretty well at that. I would like to see somebody record themselves beating the levels and post it on youtube and include the link in there review I must say that my feedback in testing I pointed out there could be more shading though so don't be mad at Mikko. I agree there could be more shading in a wide open map. But at the same time it takes a toll on such an open map if you start adding shading sectors. Got to be careful how many lines you add in such open map you could cause some tearing especially for lower end pcs. You have to take that into consideration even as a reviewer. I guess what I am saying is arrrghhhh
#13 Posted 12 March 2016 - 04:32 AM
Well, it is, but not in our community perspecta. After your maps get score between 90 and 93, the score of 86 is a bit of a letdown, isn't it?
I disagree. Mikko is getting personal when he reviews my maps (and not only mine - his overall approach to the new releases is based on the previous maps released by mapper). The Edge by Zykov Eddy, the map that don't have any enemies, top-notch design (sure it's original, but not in Duke3D way) and overall pretty maze-like and boring, gets 94 POINTS OUT OF 100!!! It's better than Bridge Between Two Islands, The Unknown Planet and Baptized in Lunar Dust - maps that is the definition of top-notch mapping (well, you can cut my map out if you want). So, Zykov Eddy's map get a score because he's crying about his depression, while my own experimental map, Cold in November (no enemies, but done without any new art), which was released when I feel pretty sad too, don't get any score at all - "No Rating". He even compared me to Eddy and called me as some kind of second-rate imitator. About my most original and personal map ever (well, I put heart into it). Read his words:
"Sanek is again following in the footsteps of his more creative countryman, Zykov Eddy. The map borrows from the Dream trilogy and especially Eddy's more recent The Edge, a map born out of depression. Cold in November is similarly downbeat but, as the above might imply, lacks originality and freshness."
If you still think that Mikko is not nitpicky and personal towards me, I don't what to say anymore.
Read Forge's post, he have more good points about it.
#14 Posted 12 March 2016 - 06:17 AM
Thank god I didn't put any dialog in The Edge or else it would be really cheesy.
This post has been edited by zykov eddy: 12 March 2016 - 06:18 AM
#15 Posted 12 March 2016 - 10:14 AM
The scale is grand and there's a variety to the terrain architecture, texturing, and elevations - so it does have some depth, but it still could have used some wall shading.
I'm enjoying the exploring around and looking for the buttons - that's not annoying, but the game play itself could have used a little more variety.
Explore-push button-fight big spawn-repeat. Just a bit redundant.
Just my initial impression. like i said, i'm only about a quarter of the way into it.
#16 Posted 12 March 2016 - 04:00 PM
What I've played of the map so far has been pretty fun, but I'm gonna wait till I have enough free time to finish it before I give my thoughts.
#17 Posted 12 March 2016 - 09:52 PM
so far nothing but a handful of minor nitpicks - like some of the edges of the map can squish the player, some missed textures, getting the first blue key to work was a chore, etc
Several (if not all) of the big-spawn set-ups can be exploited - basically because of the way the touchplates that cause them are implemented.
This post has been edited by Forge: 12 March 2016 - 10:59 PM
#18 Posted 12 March 2016 - 10:34 PM
Forge the first post sounded like the start of your reviews heheh has a ring to it miss seeing what you got to say man. Just saying... Anyways, I could think of 3-5 people who should review maps also while even excluding myself I shouldn't have to say names though. So where is it at, reviews are essentially for fun and yes one persons view. But do you get along with the viewer :SS wouldn't matter if there was more.
#19 Posted 13 March 2016 - 09:30 AM
First of all, your map.
Now, onto next issue: your approach to mapping.
The next one would be the Mikko-situation. A short one, since I'm not going to argue if 86 is actually a good score or is Mikko really getting personal towards you.
The next issue is rather off-topic, but I need to adress it anyway.
#20 Posted 13 March 2016 - 11:40 AM
Seriously, If you have such an opinion of my map, I don't have any problems with it, but I disagree about the way you approach the gameplay process. Sure, the button puzzles is one of the staples of Duke3D mapping, and in the first area I tried to make the gameplay process as varied as I can. For example, to push the very last button you need to the use the shrinker, but you also need the RPG to blow up the cage with it. Also, if you don't have the protective boots you will die while pushing the very last button. This is a multy-task type of map. I thought somebody will notice it, but I was wrong. Oh well.
You know me well enough to know how I feel while I'm mapping? I like maping, otherwise I would not be there atm, but I also like at least a tiny bit of recognition. Would you make a maps just for yourself? Also, where you saw the negative approach in my posts about my maps? Maybe I did some harsh responses in the past, but not in the recent 4 or 5 years that sure. Until now.
Mikko is ACTUALLY dislikes my work on a personal basis. This map is not the only case. Read the posts where I and Forge wrote about it.
You would be surprised, but I'm actually played Death Drive and your last map after I created that topic.
But I still don't comment your work, so there's nothing personal about it.
Actually, I'm in a doubt when I view your post. You usually don't comment my posts, but now you spend your own time to write about the map that you don't like, wrote everything you thought about me, and also defend that russophobe bastard. That's sad. You can say that you don't mean to insult anybody, and I'm not feelin' angry about your post, but I don't like that you have such a negative opinion of me.
I even wanted to contact you and be friendly with you, but since you have such a negative aura around, I don't know If you still want to shake hands with me. It would not be right it seems.
This post has been edited by Sanek: 13 March 2016 - 11:42 AM
#21 Posted 13 March 2016 - 11:58 AM
that's because you're reading too much into it and taking it personally.
Nobody likes when they have negative perceptions of their behavior laid out before them.
You're right to have issue with some of the comments in Mikko's review.
But you did over-react to legitimate criticisms of your map (and maps prior to this).
You did over-react to what you thought was an undeserving score. (and for maps prior to this)
And you did over-react by dragging up comparisons to yourself to Zykov ---work, emotional state, etc. (which is unfair to eddy because he did not involve himself, you and Mikko did)
This post has been edited by Forge: 13 March 2016 - 12:20 PM
#22 Posted 13 March 2016 - 12:06 PM
Forgot to mention that this is also something I liked, those are nice little things to put, but I still think that would've been much more effective during the natural exploration progress of the map.
No, I'm judging by the way you react and I'll be happy to be wrong in this instance.
Besides, I'm not judging you negatively as a person, I'm just not in favor of your approach to mapping (at least what seem to me to be your approach based on some things you said).
I make maps because I like making maps. I map twice a year for two or three weeks and that's usually it.
It's nice to see people liking my work, but this is not the most fun part of mapping for me.
I never saw anything russophobic in any of his reviews of my maps, your maps or any maps by Artem, EZ and some other guys I don't remember. I don't get this, really.
#23 Posted 13 March 2016 - 12:16 PM
Exploring and finding the buttons was fun. The buttons weren't hidden unfairly and finding them didn't require huge amounts of backtracking. Things unlocked and there was a sense of progress.
You provided several different areas with several different environments
You failed to take advantage of the scenery changes and did not provide any variety to the combat and alien encounters.
You made huge locations and had good variations to the elevations which provided vertical as well as horizontal navigation.
There was a fair amount of construction and architectural work & the texturing was pretty good
Your major areas were huge squares -due to being flat or blocky with your borders and not providing any proper wall shading - it was obvious that I was traveling around in a box in three out of four major locations
Your indoor base style locations were neglected in detailing, architecture, and trimming compared to the work you put in some of the outdoor areas.
The good things you did are dragged down by the bad things you ignored or neglected.
It's a very good map, but it's not an excellent map.
This post has been edited by Forge: 13 March 2016 - 12:23 PM
#24 Posted 13 March 2016 - 02:23 PM
Sure, if they're unfair or badly implemented they're extremely frustrating. But that's not the case here.
There's very little back tracking, the buttons are easy to find and there's a viewscreen showing you exactly what to do.
#25 Posted 13 March 2016 - 02:40 PM
just about every button in this map is associated with a redundant and tedious enemy spawn - this is more on the poor execution of enemy encounters than on the buttons themselves
#26 Posted 13 March 2016 - 10:08 PM
I hope this briefing sums up well though.
The map is very open one of the more exploration types but it could use some more shading. It could use more switch ups in progress to which could mix it up more although the force field doors had a nice ring to them. But switches don't bother me as long as it isn't a code switch with over 5 buttons to flip through that's uncalled for this map didn't really do that. But if its one thing you got down is building such a big area not many people can do this. Most areas end up tight and enclosed and big areas end up spacious (not really filling themselves in). You did one of the best jobs I seen in creating such open space while filling it in. But I'm afraid your shading didn't match your structure skills up to par. You structured the map pretty well with the surrounding canyons and gave that feel like you could get lost in any moment it is grand actually. The weapon balance was pretty spot on, since there was a lot of monsters the ammo and pick ups especially on the roofs helped. It was also fun flying around this map since it was pretty open. But you didn't give the best illusion that the earth continued on the edges of the map. When I fly above and I am able to look over the cliff it doesn't help to make it look like that's the end of the earth. Instead if were able to see over the cliffs in certain spots add a small attraction or distraction to make it seem like we are not in a box. Other then that you did one of the better jobs I have seen in structuring an outdoor desert area and fitting gameplay into that type of vibe. You just needed some more shading to make all of this really pop out. It kind of feels like your missing a finalization stage but its not bad. With one brush over the entire map applying shading it could be implemented quite well and make this map stand out more in looks if you need help to see what I mean I could take a second and add some of what I mean to your map so you get this idea I have. Overall I had fun playing it though its surely worth a try or two and your bound to go the wrong way at least once and see something quite interesting even if its below like an acid pit.
#27 Posted 14 March 2016 - 07:50 AM
There's nothing like that in Mikko's review, but he actually have a number of posts on that old AMC forum (read his signature) and a couple on old DNR forum too.
just about every button in this map is associated with a redundant and tedious enemy spawn - this is more on the poor execution of enemy encounters than on the buttons themselves
It would be better if you wander between the buttons without any action? I tried to make it fun.
I thought about that. I actually tried to connect the areas with each other, but the sectors started glitching because of the enomorous size. Yea, I need more backround area next time. Thanks for review anyway.
I'm not saying that I'm againtst any criticism. I know that my map is not perfect, and I'm not pretend like I made a masterpiece. But I think that I have the right to disagree with some points people made about my map and say something about it. I don't want to get it to the extreme, really.
What I don't like is that Mikko Sandt and Mister Sinster (of all the people!) switched the focus from the map itself to the man who made it, and blame all the faults on his personality.
#28 Posted 14 March 2016 - 08:22 AM
read 'tedious and redundant'
there's more than one way to implement alien encounters in a map besides spawning them in huge numbers every time a switch is thrown or a key picked up / used
you had unique areas with different environments in your map, you should have made unique encounters with a unique set of aliens for each section
This post has been edited by Forge: 14 March 2016 - 08:24 AM
#29 Posted 14 March 2016 - 08:45 AM
As a matter of fact, one's personality greatly affects his or her work. Underperforming student is affected by his personality traits (which are affected by a number of things), as well as a very good student is affected by his personality traits (which help student perform better).
This is not, however, adressed in my post (the part about the map's quality). The only thing that can be directly interpreted in such way would be the "lack of focus" I mentioned.
The rest was my reaction to your post-release behaviour. By this I mean your over-reacting to Mikko's score to both "DoomBOX" and "Cold In November", dragging other peoples work in and bashing it because you didn't felt like your map recieved recognition you think it deserved. And this is not the first time you over-reacted to something you were not quite pleased with.
This what I meant by "approach to mapping process": not the actual building process, but rather community interaction after that and psychology behind it. (and I didn't even state that it's the truth)
This is not the reason why your maps aren't always good, but it still affects your working process in one way or another.
I don't think I need to expand my point any further. I regret turning this into a shitstorm, sorry for that. I hope the rest of this thread will be more about your map.
Just please take what I said into consideration.