[PikaCommando]

Everyone seems to think Duke Nukem is all about explosive action and his personality but the failure of Duke Nukem Forever shows that it is actually the level design and the puzzles of Duke Nukem 3D; the real meat of the gameplay; that made DN3D a classic (among other things). But the question is; how did Duke3D (and by extension, similar shooters from his time as well as usermaps) keep these mazes, puzzles, secrets, keycard hunts, etc in each level interesting each time you play it? Similarly, which Duke3D level do you think detracts from the overall quality of the game and why?


tl;dr What did Duke3D's levels do to keep us from getting bored of the game?

[Lunick]

No more switch/button puzzles pls

[Micky C]

Did Duke 3D really have that many "puzzles"? As Lunick said there are a lot of combination switch puzzles but those are a pretty cheap and intellectually bankrupt way to extend gameplay. If I wanted to experience trial and error as well as multiple failed attempts I'd join a speed dating event.

[OpenMaw]

The synergy of the theme, and design of the level is often where Duke3D would shine. The first level is basically the prime example of everything good in the game, and it extends throughout most of the levels in the four official episodes.

I think one level where it was taken way too far was something like the Smithsonian level in Duke it out in DC. That map is so huge and winding that it often confused players.


It's not so much the puzzles themselves, but it's the fact that maps have things to do and stuff to explore. Nooks and crannies, alternate paths, back routes, hidden passage ways. Giving the world a sense that it's spiraling outward from where you start. You

[oasiz]

Episode4 is full of button puzzles, not a really fun thing.

I wouldn't say that duke is full of puzzles overall to say, there are a few instances like shrinker segments but I think that the most of the "meat" comes from same stuff as doom, presented with some non-linearity and branches that start to open up and interconnect back to the main area as you progress.

What also gets used is that some times a landmark has changed due to a button press and sometimes it gets shown or made clear to the player. It's about opening paths and making the map evolve as you go. Due to overlapping sectors and such, Duke is capable of even tighter vertical interconnection than Doom.

Stuff like this is where RR failed, tons of buttons and no clue what they do as "the plot" device to open up new areas are just random buttons. Duke levels can some times even have almost zelda-like mysterious passages as secrets or main paths that open up and all it might take is just standing at the right spot or following some nuggets to a hidden door that the player can open.

[MajorTom 2417]

I was playing a level in Attrition's High Score Challenge that had a Shrinker puzzle in it---shrink yourself, run through a small tunnel past three crushers, press a switch and then shrink yourself to get back to the first room. First time I tried it, stupid enemies fighting in the first room broke the damn mirror....it took a few tries and reloads, but I got it.

And Dogville....the keycards in that level are spread out in such a way that you can take a long way through the level to fight more enemies, or finish it quickly. Fun, until you run out of keys....

tl;dr - Puzzles, when designed well, enhance the gameplay.

[dnskill]

I think one of the reasons Duke's levels, and BUILD game levels in general were so amazing at the time, is because they represented areas that actually looked real, or were real for that matter. Quake didn't do that, and most of the levels felt like Doom maps. The puzzles and stuff doesn't really take away from gameplay, but if it is overdone it can get annoying.

[HulkNukem]

It shouldnt be a secret that the reason FPS's are mind-numbing today is because of the current level design being either procedurally generated or linear to the point of hand-holding.

Bioshock (the original, and to an extent Bioshock 2) is the most recent example of level design being what it should be today. The total openness of stuff like Doom or Duke won't translate well to modern AAA games simply because of all the scripting and art that needs to be done to make it both look competent and play well. Even more so when you want to make things abstract, meaning you need even more polish and art passes.
Every level in Bioshock shared certain generic resources like doors, bathyspheres, stairs with black and white tile, etc etc, yet each level also has their own unique theme. There is a ton to explore, every room serves some sort of narrative or setting purpose and aren't just non descript (for the most part).
Instead of keycards, your path might be locked by a giant ice wall, so you have to go find the fire plasmid to melt it. In getting this plasmid, you can also find other side areas blocked by a frozen wall you can melt and find items to benefit you. However if you choose to replace your lightning plasmid in favor of the fire plasmid, there might be a side area locked behind a malfunctioning button you would've been able to zap to allow access.
You had the specific linear path you had to take through the levels, sometimes forcing backtracking, and a bunch of side areas you had to figure out how to access. It is a far cry from the typical AAA FPS where you must wait for your buddy Sgt. Bland's scripting to open the paper thin wooden door you can't blow apart with your RPG.



I know this doesn't have much to do with Duke3D and I kind of went on a tangent. To stay on topic, what I personally enjoy about Duke3D, besides the best levels being a hybrid of abstract and real world location, is that there are multiple ways to complete levels.
Hollywood Holocaust, you could go up to the projector room and grab the keycard and go through the arcade, or you could just blow the movie screen, grab the jetpack, and fly to the exit.
Raw Meat had quite a few multiple paths as well.

[----]

The failure of DNF compared to DN3D is mostly because of the corridor levels and the frigging on-screen hints.

I could imagine that the crane level (vanilla campaign, not the magnet puzzle in the DLC) would have been a fine puzzle in a non-corridor level like in DN3D. Find the Battery somewhere logical without being told what to do then operate the crane to reach new ground. Well it is a bit like SW, where you often have to find the repair kits. But anyways.

A modern DN game (or a new IP like Bombshell, for example) should have these varying elements in a non linear levels.
- They should be easy to figure out, but harder than figuring out that a blue keycard is for a blue lock.
- They should be innovative and varying instead of always being the same (get repair kit in every second level)
- They should be 'funny'' (not in the slapstick sort of funny, but something that gives you a subtle smile on the face).

Some examples for puzzles i would like (personal opinion):
- Have a car standing on a sloped street facing down and having a numberplate saying "Kick Azz". Duke kicks the back of the car, it rolls down into a wall which opens a new pathway.
- Have a basketball and basket in a backyard. You can throw it into the basket or into the window of the building nearby (have a sign, "Don't thow ball at wall" below window). If you throw it in the window someone opens the door and throws the ball back, leaving the door of the house open*.
- Press a fire alarm button or turn on oven too hot that the food gets burned and fills the builing with smoke. A fire engine is then sparying water into the window. Open the rear window to let the water go through the appartmen into some pond or pool on the backside that raises the waterlevel to reach new places (there were a lot water-raising puzzles in DN3D and SW, but they were mostly solved by destroying walls).

*) Or he rushes outta house screaming "get off my lawn" and you knock him out with your fists (no weapons in your inventory yet) and take his shotgun.

[Danukem]

Pika is right that the greatness of Duke 3D has a lot to do with excellent level design, which is lacking in most modern shooters. I disagree about "puzzles", though. When used sparingly and appropriately, keycard and button hunts can be okay, but they are grossly overused in a lot of maps (especially user maps) and can really kill the flow of a level and make players ragequit after wasting a lot of time.

[Inspector Lagomorf]

Trooper Dan, on 07 March 2016 - 12:38 PM, said:

Pika is right that the greatness of Duke 3D has a lot to do with excellent level design, which is lacking in most modern shooters. I disagree about "puzzles", though. When used sparingly and appropriately, keycard and button hunts can be okay, but they are grossly overused in a lot of maps (especially user maps) and can really kill the flow of a level and make players ragequit after wasting a lot of time.

Know what bugs me more than anything else in a usermap? Having a combo switch puzzle, but spreading out the combo switches all over the level, so you have no idea what progress you're making towards finishing the puzzle until you hit the (presumably) last button, since usually the map designers don't think to number the buttons or have security cameras/monitors indicating which "grand door" the buttons are supposed to open.

[Mike Norvak]

Some of you already mentioned it. But if you really want to know what makes level design so good in Duke Nukem 3D just analyze the first level of each episode, and do a diagram of them (considering item location, how new "secret" and "formal"paths are opened each you advance through the level, how the player discovers each new zone, enemy location, etc.) Play it as it if were the first time. Every thing in the levels has a real purpose, and is made to be usable in a way, the sense of "realism" in Duke Nukem 3D is less generated by imitating real life behavior or look (as most FPS nowadays and even user maps tend to do) and more by the fact that all the stuff in this "world" work as a logic whole, the diegesis or mimesis of Duke Nukem 3D world. Is something like "Hey this 3D (2.5D) game have exploding walls, mirrors, light switches, security cams, water dispensers, destructable buildings, hostile ships, hookers, strippers, auto destruct buttons, keycards: Duke 3D (2.5D) world is plausible!!" The game isn't make to feel like reality but to feel real (note the difference).

In Duke Nukem 3D there aren't secret places: there are secret passages, there are not enemy respawns in already visited places: reinforcements arrived, there aren't enemies placed in unsuspected locations: there are ambushes, (but you can ambush enemies by using secret passages) and so on and so forth...

In that aspect button puzzles work as real "password" security systems in the Duke diegesis, more than artifacts to frustrate the player (as many users maps tend to do) and remind him is a game, key cards are made to open doors in Duke diegesis, but aren't mandatory in many cases (again giving the player freedom and make him forget it's just a game), in fact the player isn't searching for a "red keycard" but a way to get out/in of a place, sometimes when he finds the card, another (secret) route is open so he can decide if whether go to the door or use the new path.Sometimes the only possible path is actually a secret place -passage- (like in the night club in red light district) Why would you make the player think he is discovering a secret passage, but he is only taking the designed route, just to be ambushed by the pigcops at the end? Other kind of puzzle is in Death Row where's there's actually a map of the "prison" showing the secret tunnel in one of the cells.

Another aspect functionality over aesthetics: take for example a light switch: in the original game light switches are oversized to be noticeable so you can use it to light zones, it's a functionality logic over aesthetic logic, nowadays tendency (generalizing) is to make the light switch real sized which could cause the whole effect to be missed, or even switches that don't work at all, another example is the mirror in Hollywood Holocaust: it isn't there just to look cool and say "a mirror is possible in build engine" but to be usable and look through the corner of the bathroom (this should be used more in maps) hell even duke recognizes him self in the mirror and says he's looking good!

My conclussion: button puzzles, keycards, security screens, laser mines, locked doors aren't placed in the game to challenge player intelligence but to give the feeling that Duke is actually dealing with security systems. Opinions?

Commando Nukem, on 05 March 2016 - 01:29 AM, said:

The synergy of the theme, and design of the level is often where Duke3D would shine. The first level is basically the prime example of everything good in the game, and it extends throughout most of the levels in the four official episodes.

It's not so much the puzzles themselves, but it's the fact that maps have things to do and stuff to explore. Nooks and crannies, alternate paths, back routes, hidden passage ways. Giving the world a sense that it's spiraling outward from where you start. You

THIS

oasiz, on 05 March 2016 - 02:06 AM, said:

It's about opening paths and making the map evolve as you go.

AND THIS