[Micky C]

I disagree that the standards are too high. There's no reason to pack maps full of detail like the Flaming Shipwreck; simple, low-detail yet clean maps like those in the original game are in demand too. Such maps aren't too hard and don't take a lot of time to do, like Bite the Dust to use a recent example.

It just takes a bit of focus on strong, simple shading, textures that are logical and not mis-alligned, and consistent sizing.

[Sixty Four]

Micky C, on 15 October 2015 - 01:48 PM, said:

You're all overthinking it.

I don't think I am over thinking it I merely said post a sprite. You can even press tab and copy it so its easy to paste But I do agree that the caps lock no gravity is a good idea helps you see how high somethings really are from the floor I did not think of honestly but I would still use my way but that is quite smart to Micky.

Now the Mechanic he just tells it as it truly is.. dat technician style Well damn he knows it

On another note;

Fill in the blanks ar_____boo dood




ALL : arrggghhingboo dood

[PsychoGoatee]

Micky C, on 16 October 2015 - 05:27 PM, said:

I disagree that the standards are too high. There's no reason to pack maps full of detail like the Flaming Shipwreck; simple, low-detail yet clean maps like those in the original game are in demand too. Such maps aren't too hard and don't take a lot of time to do, like Bite the Dust to use a recent example.

It just takes a bit of focus on strong, simple shading, textures that are logical and not mis-alligned, and consistent sizing.

To be fair, I didn't say the standards are too high. Specifically I said the standards are pretty high. And in the context of somebody lightheartedly saying I shouldn't have released the map, for example. Everybody has their own standards of what is a good map to them, but mostly the releases I've seen posted on here are impressive really detailed maps by people who have completely mastered the tools. And that's great of course, but it does make me wonder if there are more people just not releasing stuff they're working on, maybe because of the standards being pretty high.

But that's just random musing on my part, in a nutshell my point was just more maps is not a bad thing. There's no particular reason not to release them in my opinion. If you post screens and a little description, people can just make up their mind on whether to play it. Sure beats having no maps posted, at least for me.

And speaking of mapping a map like those in the original game... that's a high standard from my perspective. It's not exactly easy to match those maps. And if it is easy for some, I say, well, that's impressive, and good on them.

Also, you say it's not hard and doesn't take much time. Why haven't you released more maps? Mapping challenges being thrown out left and right, I know.

[Micky C]

Don't forget I'm working on the AMC TC Episode 3 at the moment. There are many good mappers working on larger projects which is why they're not working on individual standalone maps. Plus 2015 has been an especially busy year for me.

[PsychoGoatee]

Micky C, on 17 October 2015 - 02:42 AM, said:

Don't forget I'm working on the AMC TC Episode 3 at the moment. There are many good mappers working on larger projects which is why they're not working on individual standalone maps. Plus 2015 has been an especially busy year for me.

Fair enough, and I know you've released plenty of maps, I've played some. It just boggles my mind the idea that it's quick and easy to make a good map. If it really was, why isn't this forum filling up with releases every week?

I feel like I'm a fairly tech savvy guy, and I think a lot of people would just not know what they're looking at when trying to learn build/mapster. I took CAD class in high school, but carving out a 3D world and not having it break in a million ways along the way is very time consuming. And I know from .txt files that plenty of maps have taken years to make.

For example, I put a bus in the middle of the street, and if the hanging trim of the building overlaps with it causes crazy looking glitches. You find new wacky things like this every five minutes.

[Forge]

over-sizing with plenty of room to move around is better than over-detailed and crowded,

good game play is important, but so is the environment - it's part of the experience,

the environment doesn't have to be uber-detailed, just clean. Good shading and texturing are more important than eye-candy,

getting the environment, eye-candy, and the game-play aspects of a map put together into a nice package comes with practice and experience.

nothing terribly wrong with releasing one's first map - you can get a lot of suggestions and pointers from the community if you're open to constructive criticism. I'd recommend getting a beta-tester or two to check it out first instead of using the community as beta-testers - try to get it as clean as you can before hand - and some people can be pretty douchey about ripping on 'amateur' maps.

just my opinion.

[Paul B]

Interesting map, I enjoyed how you walked the player through the map and the forced the player to back track. The game play was fun and I appreciated the thought process behind triggering the AI. I felt like the geometry of the map was rushed and I think if you can spend more time making an environment realistic or plausible that would definitely add to the atmosphere. Don't be afraid to make sectors for the sole purpose of decoration and small things like aligning textures, adding shading \ trimming so the textures fit together also contribute to making a solid level. Try to keep these things in mind when building your sectors and it will bring your maps to life. I’m looking forward to your next map, thanks for sharing!

[icecoldduke]

CraigFatman, on 14 October 2015 - 05:54 PM, said:

As a rule of thumb, never release your first map =P

I actually disagree with that. I think people will learn a lot from community feedback and more people should release maps even if they aren't up to community standards. In fact Richard/Evan there probably should be a form section dedicated to just this. So that way the non-experienced guys can post there work and learn from the more experienced guys without feeling the pressure to release something of quality.

[The Mechanic]

icecoldduke, on 05 November 2015 - 11:38 AM, said:

I actually disagree with that. I think people will learn a lot from community feedback and more people should release maps even if they aren't up to community standards. In fact Richard/Evan there probably should be a form section dedicated to just this. So that way the non-experienced guys can post there work and learn from the more experienced guys without feeling the pressure to release something of quality.

I'm all for keeping the number of sections in a forum small, but this does sound a really good idea.

I also frequent a photography forum, in that forum, it is generally considered bad form to modify peoples efforts there is a critique section where it is actually encouraged for the purposes of learning. Having it as a seperate section helps clarify this. It could be the same as Duke maps.

TTFN,
Jon

[Forge]

If you take the time to browse through the User maps & level editing topic, there's already several threads about the dos & don't s of mapping, tips, tricks, pointers, tutorials, etc.
Consolidation is fruitless. Somebody always thinks they need their own special thread for their words, so there's no reason to burden the mods to keep moving things around and merging items all the time.

[The Mechanic]

Forge, on 05 November 2015 - 01:21 PM, said:

If you take the time to browse through the User maps & level editing topic, there's already several threads about the dos & don't s of mapping, tips, tricks, pointers, tutorials, etc.
Consolidation is fruitless. Somebody always thinks they need their own special thread for their words, so there's no reason to burden the mods to keep moving things around and merging items all the time.

Yes there are threads on do/dont/tutorials.

But ... whats that got to do with a section/subsection for newbie maps ?

TTFN,
Jon

[Forge]

i didn't think that it was necessary to draw it out on paper with a crayon that the topic is already loaded with information from experienced mappers which directly addresses this:

So that way the non-experienced guys can post there work and learn from the more experienced guys without feeling the pressure to release something of quality.

...but here we are.....

and I mentioned earlier in the thread that it's usually the douchey type that rip on newb maps. They like to flaunt their knowledge instead of sharing it in a constructive way.

Making a topic specifically for 'newb' maps isn't going to make these people 'go away'.

Making a topic for 'newb' maps isn't going to encourage 'newb' maps or the lifting of 'pressure' for releasing something of 'newb' quality anymore than the way it is now. It won't be a 'safe' zone. Either a person is or is not receptive to constructive criticism, and can ignore asinine comments. It's more on the character of the person releasing a map than the community they are releasing it into.

The only reason there's even a user map section on this forum is because I sucked Tx's cock raw to get one after DN-R went down for the ump-teenth time and didn't resurface for several months.
Now you know what needs to be done to get your special sub-topic.

is your question answered satisfactorily, (complete with a snarkiness)?

[The Mechanic]

Forge, on 05 November 2015 - 02:11 PM, said:

and I mentioned earlier in the thread that it's usually the douchey type that rip on newb maps. They like to flaunt their knowledge instead of sharing it in a constructive way.

Rubbish ! I mentioned a comparison with a photographic site. There, you don't get smart-arse know-it-alls diving in with look-how-clever-I-am ... you do get genuine feedback from people. OK, you do get the occasional one, but very much the minority.

Forge, on 05 November 2015 - 02:11 PM, said:

Making a topic for 'newb' maps isn't going to encourage 'newb' maps or the lifting of 'pressure' for releasing something of 'newb' quality anymore than the way it is now.

Doing nothing sure 'aint gonna help.

Forge, on 05 November 2015 - 02:11 PM, said:

is your question answered satisfactorily, (complete with a snarkiness)?

No, but as my answer to that contained far too many colourful metaphors to not get a ban I'm happy to leave it at that.

TTFN,
Jon

[Forge]

i doubt you'd get banned for posting a colorful retort.

I mentioned this site is full of douchey people. More 'colorful' comments short of a hate crime will go unnoticed.

The Mechanic, on 05 November 2015 - 03:34 PM, said:

you don't get smart-arse know-it-alls diving in with look-how-clever-I-am ... you do get genuine feedback from people. OK, you do get the occasional one, but very much the minority.

I don't disagree with this "is how it should be"

There is no cure for douchey people. They'll follow the 'action' and spread their douchiness there as well.

It's an 'unwritten' (but oft quoted) rule of thumb not to post your first map. Not a law. I posted mine (after a couple people looked at it and gave me advice on how to clean it up).

Trying to make adjustments to the web forum format will not change anything. Doing nothing may not help, but doing the aforementioned 'something' won't help either.

There is no 'fix' for people's attitudes if they want to be douchey. It's the internet - telling someone, 'No! Bad Douche!" is pretty much a button to make them worse. That's just the environment of this kind of forum as opposed to the one you're referring to. A substantial portion of the people who bother to comment are generally nice and helpful, and it'd be just super if a few more of them were this way, but it is what it is.

The first time releaser needs to be aware that their project is potentially going to receive a good dose of criticism - some of it constructive - some of it douchey. The best thing to do is for the more 'helpful' people to hang out and post in 'newb' release threads with good constructive criticism and be encouraging in an attempt to counteract the douchey posts that make all the newcomers, and everybody outside this forum, think that all the people who hang out here are douchey.

maybe all this banter and thread hits will get more people to check out this map hmm?

[Never Forgotten]

Forge, on 05 November 2015 - 07:09 PM, said:

There is no cure for douchey people. They'll follow the 'action' and spread their douchiness there as well.

What a .45 won't work?

[Forge]

I wouldn't shoot someone for just being a douche. Anyway, there's not enough bullets in the world for that.

if you can figure out how to pop a round off across an internet connection, let me know. There are pedos and other people with defective wiring that I would prefer removed from the gene pool.

[PsychoGoatee]

There are even more bullets to be found, in trashcans and other convenient areas, in my follow-up map Groovy Street.

[The Mechanic]

Forge, on 05 November 2015 - 07:09 PM, said:

There is no 'fix' for people's attitudes if they want to be douchey. It's the internet - telling someone, 'No! Bad Douche!" is pretty much a button to make them worse. That's just the environment of this kind of forum as opposed to the one you're referring to. A substantial portion of the people who bother to comment are generally nice and helpful, and it'd be just super if a few more of them were this way, but it is what it is.

Well, there we agree.

Forge, on 05 November 2015 - 07:09 PM, said:

The first time releaser needs to be aware that their project is potentially going to receive a good dose of criticism - some of it constructive - some of it douchey. The best thing to do is for the more 'helpful' people to hang out and post in 'newb' release threads with good constructive criticism and be encouraging in an attempt to counteract the douchey posts that make all the newcomers, and everybody outside this forum, think that all the people who hang out here are douchey.

A "critique" section does have advantages, including the sticky at the top of the section with useful hints for first projects all in one place is good. Also, earlier PsychoGoatee did say parhaps I could fix his map (though most probably in jest) - in general, taking someones map, modifying it and going "you don't want to do that, you want to do this" would be douch behavior, in a "critique" section it is expected (provided it's constructive).

But it's a moot point as judging by what you had to do to get another section it's just not gonna happen.

Forge, on 05 November 2015 - 07:09 PM, said:

maybe all this banter and thread hits will get more people to check out this map hmm?

(Notes method for possible future use).

PsychoGoatee, on 05 November 2015 - 10:03 PM, said:

There are even more bullets to be found, in trashcans and other convenient areas, in my follow-up map Groovy Street.

Goddammit, AdBlocker has failed again

TTFN,
Jon

[Forge]

Absolutely nothing stopping you from asking Yatta, or any of the admins/mods for a new subsection to the user maps topic. If you can paint a pretty enough picture and come with an essay of good reasons you might get what you ask for.

[icecoldduke]

Forge, on 05 November 2015 - 02:11 PM, said:

Making a topic specifically for 'newb' maps isn't going to make these people 'go away'.

Making a topic for 'newb' maps isn't going to encourage 'newb' maps or the lifting of 'pressure' for releasing something of 'newb' quality anymore than the way it is now. It won't be a 'safe' zone. Either a person is or is not receptive to constructive criticism, and can ignore asinine comments. It's more on the character of the person releasing a map than the community they are releasing it into.

Some people when they see a new map posted in this section, they assume quality. IMO, in order for this community to thrive, there needs to be new people on the block, to replace the pro guys as they start to burn out. A subsection would weed out the idiots that don't read the OP properly, and assume the map posted is going to hit that bar of quality. The mods on here could also crack down on assinine comments on that subsection from idiots on here that think its funny to push away guys just starting out in map dev.

[Forge]

icecoldduke, on 06 November 2015 - 09:02 AM, said:

A subsection would weed out the idiots that don't read the OP properly, and assume the map posted is going to hit that bar of quality.

not really. some like to spread their air of superiority because it makes them feel important.

Quote

The mods on here could also crack down on assinine comments on that subsection from idiots on here that think its funny to push away guys just starting out in map dev.

An altruistic, but unrealistic point of view. The mods allow freedom of speech up to the point where it becomes hate/racist rhetoric.

I'm not saying your intentions are wrong, but there is some 'history' behind why some people act the way they do.

In a generalized summary, there have been several 'newb' maps released on here over the years. Now some of these 'newb' mappers were very resilient to constructive criticism and refused to take advice. They kept mass producing something a retarded monkey could make in five minutes of banging on a keyboard, which they would then proceed to liberally flood several topics and threads all over the forum with this junk. Follow this up with getting quite defensive and asinine when given advice or asked to stop with their spam - some people here are now skeptical and cynical towards 'newb' mappers. After years of getting hit with a stick, every time a new mapper comes along people start to expect to get hit with a stick. Of course there are some that just like to be douchey.
A new sub-topic for newb quality maps isn't going to change attitudes - those of the cynical group will now doubly expect someone to be a mouthy ass if they post a map in a 'newb' section. The expectation: "You can't say bad things about my work of art!", shouts the newb. The newb will think this section is a 'safe-zone' from all criticism - good, bad, or indifferent.

But go for it. Can't hurt to ask. Worse that will happen is you'll be told 'no'.

[Danukem]

I agree with Forge on pretty much everything he just wrote.

In my opinion, the best way to minimize unwarranted negative feedback on a newb map is to be up front about the map's newbishness. If the release thread is entitled "Duke Runs Around in Shadeless Soundless Streets with Oversized Doorways and Misaligned Textures-- My first ever map!" then it will probably not draw as much criticism. [By the way I haven't seen your map and I'm not implying that yours is like that!] You can point out in the OP that you are an inexperienced mapper and you know that your map has some deficiencies, but you would value constructive feedback on how to improve. Perhaps you already did this, I don't know.

As for a subforum for new mappers...I don't know. I would say it makes more sense to have a subforum for people to post WIP maps that they want beta testing on. One reason being is that we don't want people thinking that they have to be confined to a newb ghetto if they haven't posted a Duke map before. Some level designers have experience in other games and produce something very good on their first release. Some have a number of maps that they have kept to themselves and only release their first map when it is up to their high standards.

Keep in mind that if there is a subforum, either for newb maps or WIP maps, that those maps will probably not get many people playing and commenting on them, which kind of defeats the purpose.

[icecoldduke]

Trooper Dan, on 06 November 2015 - 10:33 AM, said:

Keep in mind that if there is a subforum, either for newb maps or WIP maps, that those maps will probably not get many people playing and commenting on them, which kind of defeats the purpose

Realistically, people on here are not going to download every newb's shitty level, it won't happen. The reason why I suggest a sub-form, is I can imagine some of the veteran guys popping on to that sub-form every once in awhile, and helping some of these guys out. I think a requirement for posting on that form, is not only the map file, but a full play through video as well. The video should be required so people can offer feedback without having to download and play the map. I think the sub-form will get more eyes in time on these newb maps, and maybe we might get some great content guys out of it. Just forcing people to mark each thread in this form as a "newb" map won't work as well IMO.

[PsychoGoatee]

Not to backseat mod, but at some point this tangent should be it's own topic shouldn't it? It's a bit ridiculous at this point.

[Forge]

everything you're asking - playthough videos, feedback, etc. can happen now in the current format. I'm not sure I'm seeing that there will be a huge difference between a 'newb' map sub-topic, or just marking the thread's release title / annotating in the OP that the map is a first time effort.

It actually might make more problems if a 'newb' doesn't want to be 'labeled' as a newb and drops their 15 minutes of work into the regular map release thread thinking their half-effort level is pure gold (accompanied with the 'my shit don't stink and you can't tell me anything attitude').

PsychoGoatee, on 06 November 2015 - 02:35 PM, said:

Not to backseat mod, but at some point this tangent should be it's own topic shouldn't it? It's a bit ridiculous at this point.

true. Some release threads generate discussions and get victimized by tangents. It was your turn this time. Bask in the glory you inspired, (but you're right and it should be split accordingly)

[icecoldduke]

PsychoGoatee, on 06 November 2015 - 02:35 PM, said:

Not to backseat mod, but at some point this tangent should be it's own topic shouldn't it? It's a bit ridiculous at this point.

Can you make a play through video for your map?

[Sixty Four]

I like the noob maps personally I can see if they have potential if they do you get pushed if you can't take over what is, then your not ready. People are actually nice all in all if so and so takes in what is said they get better lol. PyschoGoatee shows potential though your new map is better man looks to me like you took to some of the comments made here. Its still not the best but its better then your first map. Hope to see your next map

Edit: i bet it will kick ass but each map you learn

lol edit 2: at least he is producing something not just rapping

[FistMarine]

edit

[DotK3D]

Hello and thanks for the release.

Since It's your first map, and the second one is already posted, I think there's no need that I made a detailed post of what I think of this map (for what my opinion count ^^). I just find that's it's more a test map than a really constructed one : oversized with no shade, empty and having strange squared holes in walls left by explosions . The textures looks aligned for what I have seen. No problems with ammo and life, battles and enemies spawn are fine to me. I think the major problem is the outside city part : it looks like more than a canyon than a city.

I am going to test your second map right now, I want to see how you have improve.

I hope you don't take this few criticisms as just bashing, it's not my attention, quite the contrary I appreciate how enthusiastic you are about mapping in duke and you give me the envy to try (again ^^) mapster and doing something playable.

Have fun in mapping .

[PsychoGoatee]

It was a test alright. A test of my patience. (And there is some shading, I did the ol' darken opposite walls thing to give rooms the more 3D look etc. Though maybe too subtle on higher brightness settings)

Thanks.