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Shaw's Nightmare general discussion  "Discuss all things Shaw's Nightmare."

User is offline   m96 

  • 34

#31

I've made a tool that converts MIDIs to Shaw's Nightmare's .SNG files.

But there are several catches:
+ MIDI format must be 0.
+ The timebase should be 240 or else the song will play too slowly or too fast.
+ There are no controller changes or pitch bends.
+ Instruments will always be boring piano because there is no way to map them properly.
+ The converter will only take the first 6 channels and maps channel 10 to 7. (You can use MSEQ to map the instruments though.)

Attached File(s)



See what the rest of the world is missing:
shawsnightmare.ucoz.com
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User is offline   MrFlibble 

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#32

View PostMrFlibble, on 19 August 2015 - 04:42 AM, said:

Well, you could - at least temporarily - solve some of your art problems by using freeware assets.

Recently I found a 2.5D FPS for Android called Gloomy Dungeons. It was created by a Belarussian dev team who had used Freedoom graphics during the prototype stage, and loved the free game resource concept so much that they released the entire game and its assets for free (under the MIT license). This includes all sorts of textures, monsters (they only have four rotations though), weapons, items and props, sound effects etc.

Perhaps you could use something from those resources?
1

User is offline   m96 

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#33

I've just had a thought: Matt Groening before he did the Simpsons, had a comic book called Life In Hell. It had a bad art style but people liked the writing. I'm wondering why don't people look at the inner workings of Shaw's Nightmare instead of it's aesthetics?

See what the rest of the world is missing:
shawsnightmare.ucoz.com
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User is offline   m96 

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#34

.

See what the rest of the world is missing:
shawsnightmare.ucoz.com

This post has been edited by m96: 27 November 2015 - 03:01 AM

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User is offline   Micky C 

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#35

In a market saturated with games as well as many high quality free, stand-alone TCs, what makes Shaw's Nightmare so special? The fact that it runs on an obsolete OS doesn't do it any favours.

Polymer wishlist: Global illumination, SSAO, Bloom, reflective surfaces, adjustable specular (wetness), volumetric lighting.
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User is offline   m96 

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#36

View PostMicky C, on 27 November 2015 - 03:08 AM, said:

In a market saturated with games as well as many high quality free, stand-alone TCs, what makes Shaw's Nightmare so special?

The fact that it's the only Build engine game built directly on the Build engine as opposed to just being based on Duke3D in recent times?

See what the rest of the world is missing:
shawsnightmare.ucoz.com

This post has been edited by m96: 27 November 2015 - 08:17 AM

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User is offline   MrBlackCat 

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#37

View Postm96, on 26 November 2015 - 12:32 AM, said:

I've just had a thought: Matt Groening before he did the Simpsons, had a comic book called Life In Hell. It had a bad art style but people liked the writing. I'm wondering why don't people look at the inner workings of Shaw's Nightmare instead of it's aesthetics?
I understand what you are saying, but there is a huge difference between interactive media (like games) and "fed" media. Here on a forum, you are more likely to find people who are interested in a story, or in the writing... but even gamers who are looking for, or can appreciate a story, are more likely to enjoy a game which is aesthetically pleasing along with that story.
I don't know about your game as I have not played it... I watched some video, but don't have a reaction. Unique is all that comes to mind, but nothing negative really.

MrBlackCat

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This post has been edited by MrBlackCat: 27 November 2015 - 04:09 PM

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User is offline   Micky C 

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#38

View Postm96, on 27 November 2015 - 08:13 AM, said:

The fact that it's the only Build engine game built directly on the Build engine as opposed to just being based on Duke3D in recent times?


That's mostly just splitting hairs. TCs like WGRealms 2 (especially when playing as Jedrick) change the aesthetic and gameplay of the game to a degree that it's not recognizable as a Duke Nukem game. There's also the upcoming commercial Bombshell prequel being made on the Build Engine being developed by 3D Realms with veteran mappers like Davox making the levels. If you've seen his work in the DNF 2013 DLC then you know that the level design will be very high quality. True the game is using eduke32 rather than the original Build, but considering that eduke32 can be made to look extremely classic, there's no reason not to use the advanced features and ability to run on modern operating systems.

Now I admit I haven't played your game, but the art and level design looks simple enough that you're also going to be competing with all the Doom content being produced, and even some of the more advanced Wolfenstein 3D TCs. At the end of the day, people aren't going to care what engine its on, they're going to want a quality product regardless of engine.

@ your comment about the Life in Hell comic, you're suggesting that your gameplay is so orgasmically good that it overcomes the shortcomings of both the simple art design and the hassle of having to play on dos? That's an extremely tall order, and your game is going to need something pretty damn unique and fun about it to motivate people to play it over everything else out there, and despite the shortcomings of your game that I just mentioned.

Polymer wishlist: Global illumination, SSAO, Bloom, reflective surfaces, adjustable specular (wetness), volumetric lighting.
Mapper of the Month December 2014.

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User is offline   m96 

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#39

View PostMicky C, on 27 November 2015 - 02:39 PM, said:

That's mostly just splitting hairs. TCs like WGRealms 2 (especially when playing as Jedrick) change the aesthetic and gameplay of the game to a degree that it's not recognizable as a Duke Nukem game. There's also the upcoming commercial Bombshell prequel being made on the Build Engine being developed by 3D Realms with veteran mappers like Davox making the levels. If you've seen his work in the DNF 2013 DLC then you know that the level design will be very high quality. True the game is using eduke32 rather than the original Build, but considering that eduke32 can be made to look extremely classic, there's no reason not to use the advanced features and ability to run on modern operating systems.

Well I didn't need the advanced features, and the reason I chose DOS is I wanted to bring it back.

View PostMicky C, on 27 November 2015 - 02:39 PM, said:

@ your comment about the Life in Hell comic, you're suggesting that your gameplay is so orgasmically good that it overcomes the shortcomings of both the simple art design and the hassle of having to play on dos? That's an extremely tall order, and your game is going to need something pretty damn unique and fun about it to motivate people to play it over everything else out there, and despite the shortcomings of your game that I just mentioned.

I didn't say it was good, I'm just saying it is unfair that people ignore a product merely because of its ugly look and not it's inner workings.

See what the rest of the world is missing:
shawsnightmare.ucoz.com
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User is online   Mark. 

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#40

" I'm just saying it is unfair that people ignore a product merely because of its ugly look and not it's inner workings."
----------------------------------------------
Because of that reality you have to either :
1. Stay true to your goals and accept the sad fact that many people will ignore your game because of it's looks.
2. Compromise by improving the graphics slightly to attract those people.

I wish you good luck in whichever way you choose.

And Micky was right. With Eduke32 and custom resources you can produce a game that has absolutely nothing to resemble Duke Nukem. One of the many games I am helping with right now is an adventure game with quests set in Medieval times.

This post has been edited by Mark.: 28 November 2015 - 08:06 AM

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User is offline   MrFlibble 

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#41

View PostMicky C, on 27 November 2015 - 03:08 AM, said:

In a market saturated with games as well as many high quality free, stand-alone TCs, what makes Shaw's Nightmare so special?

That. That's the right question. In fact, I've been thinking about it for a while, and couldn't really find an answer besides what Micheal (m96) said himself: the game's engine being forked off from Ken Silverman's Build source.

Don't get me wrong. Before adding the entry of Shaw's Nightmare to MobyGames I did some research, and found out that the game came into existence literally against the odds: Micheal struggled with lack of expertise in coding, against lack of support from others, the few people who'd joined the project all left at some point or other, but he put the game together and released it nonetheless. And the game is a pretty stable product, never crashed once for me or anything. It's also playable, although not without shortcomings. This is a really impressive feat, and I respect Micheal for that.

However, the game isn't very popular to say the least, right? I was thinking why this is so, and came to the conclusion that it needs a "unique playing proposition" so to speak, something which makes it stand out and something that the players won't find in other games.

Shaw's Nightmare is very obviously intended to be a Doom clone. I can't object to that personally, but this immediately places the game into very tight competition with several games and TCs running on the authentic Doom engine, many of which are free. In this respect, it is not Shaw's Nightmare's art but level design that could use some improvement. Also I'm not the only person to notice somewhat sluggish controls and slow-paced gameplay, which is quite different from how Doom feels.

Being a Build engine game certainly makes Shaw's Nightmare unique. However, this fact does not, and really cannot make it more attractive to players. I admit I haven't played very far into the game, just about five levels, but I haven't noticed many advanced features of the Build engine being used, apart from slopes and an occasional mirror. The levels in Ken Silverman's demo have some more advanced features, like walkways above walkways that imitate room-over-room environments, reflective floors to mimic water, various rotating doors and other objects, flowing water, interactive objects etc. etc. And all of that in what is essentially tech demo.

I don't know, maybe the levels I have not reached indeed contain these or other advanced features. However, the level design generally makes an impression of not being particularly complex, even without considering the enhanced features of the Build engine. I don't want to sound overly critical, but I did not find the levels particularly challenging, or encouraging exploration. Also there are some definite no-no's in level design, like inescapable pits the player may fall into but has no way of getting out save for restarting the game. I quit playing the first time when I got into one right at the beginning of the market fair level.

I need to emphasize again that I would really like Shaw's Nightmare to become better and more appealing to many players. However I also believe that it needs improvement in several departments. Why don't you open source the game? That would allow experienced coders here to help you with advice if not make some optimizations for you. I'm also hoping the mappers will get interested in the game and create some levels for you. With smoother gameplay and more complex level design any deficiencies in art style or quality will be less jarring.

I would love it if some of the experienced mappers here gave the game a try in their spare time and commented on level design, and possible ways of improving it. Those who don't like playing in DOSBox like me, please don't forget that there's also a Windows port.
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User is offline   m96 

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#42

View PostMrFlibble, on 29 November 2015 - 06:58 AM, said:

That. That's the right question. In fact, I've been thinking about it for a while, and couldn't really find an answer besides what Micheal (m96) said himself: the game's engine being forked off from Ken Silverman's Build source.

All right I admit it. I didn't really have an answer but Shaw's Nightmare II at it's current state improves on Shaw's Nightmare in a couple of ways.

View PostMrFlibble, on 29 November 2015 - 06:58 AM, said:

Being a Build engine game certainly makes Shaw's Nightmare unique. However, this fact does not, and really cannot make it more attractive to players. I admit I haven't played very far into the game, just about five levels, but I haven't noticed many advanced features of the Build engine being used, apart from slopes and an occasional mirror. The levels in Ken Silverman's demo have some more advanced features, like walkways above walkways that imitate room-over-room environments, reflective floors to mimic water, various rotating doors and other objects, flowing water, interactive objects etc. etc. And all of that in what is essentially tech demo.

I don't know, maybe the levels I have not reached indeed contain these or other advanced features. However, the level design generally makes an impression of not being particularly complex, even without considering the enhanced features of the Build engine. I don't want to sound overly critical, but I did not find the levels particularly challenging, or encouraging exploration. Also there are some definite no-no's in level design, like inescapable pits the player may fall into but has no way of getting out save for restarting the game. I quit playing the first time when I got into one right at the beginning of the market fair level.

Seems to me you're not quite observant. There ARE swinging doors and even sliding doors in the game even in the levels you have seen (and reached). And please don't forget that I had to cut a lot out from Shaw's Nightmare to make it do-able with a one-man team.

View PostMrFlibble, on 29 November 2015 - 06:58 AM, said:

I need to emphasize again that I would really like Shaw's Nightmare to become better and more appealing to many players. However I also believe that it needs improvement in several departments. Why don't you open source the game? That would allow experienced coders here to help you with advice if not make some optimizations for you. I'm also hoping the mappers will get interested in the game and create some levels for you. With smoother gameplay and more complex level design any deficiencies in art style or quality will be less jarring.

I would love it if some of the experienced mappers here gave the game a try in their spare time and commented on level design, and possible ways of improving it. Those who don't like playing in DOSBox like me, please don't forget that there's also a Windows port.

I'm still not seeing how the game is too slow for you. It runs adequately enough for me. Maybe you could post me a YouTube video of how it is too slow?

As for open-sourcing, I won't do it. I would probably just ask for help, that is easier. But I may do it, if the project is cancelled or I am unable to support it. My offer still stands. If you want the source code, I will send it to you personally.

See what the rest of the world is missing:
shawsnightmare.ucoz.com

This post has been edited by m96: 06 December 2015 - 12:41 PM

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User is offline   MrFlibble 

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#43

View Postm96, on 04 December 2015 - 08:35 PM, said:

Shaw's Nightmare II at it's current state improves on Shaw's Nightmare in a couple of ways.

Why don't you tell us more.

View Postm96, on 04 December 2015 - 08:35 PM, said:

Seems to me you're not quite observant. There ARE swinging doors and even sliding doors in the game even in the levels you have seen (and reached).

Well, I honestly don't remember any. However, my intention wasn't to point out the absence of this or that particular feature, but to comment on my general impression of level design.

I think that whatever features are used in a level, they should contribute, in a meaningful way, to the aesthetics and playability of that level as a whole. For example, the bathroom mirror in Duke Nukem 3D's E1L1 isn't there just for a "cool" effect, or to show off the capabilities of the game engine. In single player, it serves as an advance warning of an ambush, drawing the player's attention to the fact that certain features of the level (including CCTV cameras) can be used to the player's advantage. Secondly, it contributes to realism, because a mirror is a typical feature of a bathroom. Additionally, it allows the player to take a look at Duke, and also hear Duke's comment about himself if the action key is used on the mirror. This adds to a consistent representation of Duke's character.

View Postm96, on 04 December 2015 - 08:35 PM, said:

I'm still not seeing how the game is too slow for you. It runs adequately enough for me. Maybe you could post me a YouTube video of how it is too slow?

I'm sorry but I don't really have the time to record a video ATM. I would much appreciate if someone else here played Shaw's Nightmare and gave feedback on gameplay compared to other 2.5D FPS titles to substantiate or disprove my claims. For now I can only quote what a user said in the Doomworld forums:

Shadow Hog said:

This is more visual than gameplay, but it's weird how the game runs at what seems to be sub-30 FPS, despite the voxel objects clearly rotating at something closer to 60. Why doesn't the entire game run at that speed? As it is, the pace of it all feels lethargic. Combined with the insane mouselook speed, and it's all incredibly disorienting to actually play.

On a side note, I just noticed that another Doomworld forums user offered to create some art for you. Did you contact him?

View Postm96, on 04 December 2015 - 08:35 PM, said:

If you want the source code, I will send it to you personally.

I'm sorry but I'm not a coder, so I would not be able to help you if you sent the code to me. I suggested open sourcing because I think that it might increase the chances of other people getting interested in your project and contributing to its development. I may be wrong on this though.


This post has been edited by MrFlibble: 08 December 2015 - 10:46 AM

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User is offline   m96 

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#44

View PostMrFlibble, on 08 December 2015 - 10:42 AM, said:

Why don't you tell us more.

Already done it.

View PostMrFlibble, on 08 December 2015 - 10:42 AM, said:

On a side note, I just noticed that another Doomworld forums user offered to create some art for you. Did you contact him?

No, but I'll try.

View PostMrFlibble, on 08 December 2015 - 10:42 AM, said:

I'm sorry but I'm not a coder, so I would not be able to help you if you sent the code to me. I suggested open sourcing because I think that it might increase the chances of other people getting interested in your project and contributing to its development. I may be wrong on this though.

I didn't address you specifically, I just wanted to re-inforce my offer.

See what the rest of the world is missing:
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User is offline   icecoldduke 

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#45

View Postm96, on 27 November 2015 - 08:13 AM, said:

The fact that it's the only Build engine game built directly on the Build engine as opposed to just being based on Duke3D in recent times?


While there is a niche market for "games built with build", I feel the original question is valid: what fun does Shaws Nightmare bring to the table? The tech you built it on is irrelevant, first and foremost a game has to be fun :). The fact you made 30 levels is impressive. The art in your game is awful to say the least, and based on the comments I've seen it's very boring. Were is the fun?

You need to sell people on your work, not attack them for the comments they make(no matter how stupid they are). I would suggest for the next version of the game, you focus on getting the fun in there. Next you need to get some solid art in there. I look forward to seeing that version of the game.

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This post has been edited by icecoldduke: 10 December 2015 - 06:32 AM

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User is offline   m96 

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#46

I've just had a thought.

Are there any forums besides this one that are all things Build?

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User is offline   icecoldduke 

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#47

View Postm96, on 15 December 2015 - 06:44 AM, said:

I've just had a thought.

Are there any forums besides this one that are all things Build?


Why? If you post about your project in another form and it still isn't fun, people aren't going to care :).

ICED Shadow Warrior Port
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User is offline   m96 

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#48

View Posticecoldduke, on 15 December 2015 - 06:57 AM, said:

Why? If you post about your project in another form and it still isn't fun, people aren't going to care :).

I'm just looking for level designers.

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User is offline   MrFlibble 

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#49

There's a Blood forum, and the 3D Realms Forums, but I guess you have asked there already.

You could try asking people from the Doom mapping community, but that would require you to have a converter from the Doom map format to your format.
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User is offline   m96 

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#50

Why is that when I do get somebody to work for Shaw's Nightmare, they stop responding at some point?

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User is offline   Micky C 

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#51

Well how long were they working? Perhaps some people join up as a spur of the moment thing, have a change of mind or priority later and it's just easier to ignore any messages than go through the hassle of officially quitting. It's kind of like a break up but to a much smaller degree so people want to avoid the conflict.

Polymer wishlist: Global illumination, SSAO, Bloom, reflective surfaces, adjustable specular (wetness), volumetric lighting.
Mapper of the Month December 2014.

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User is offline   m96 

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#52

I'll give you an example: One person named Emeric Alizond has been in the team for about 6 months back in 2014. He claimed to be working on the maps but did not produce anything and I had to push him out.

Also how hard can it be to just say it?

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User is offline   Micky C 

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#53

Hmm that's weird. Wonder if he was just being a jerk or something along those lines. Yeah I know it's theoretically pretty easy but people are like that.

Polymer wishlist: Global illumination, SSAO, Bloom, reflective surfaces, adjustable specular (wetness), volumetric lighting.
Mapper of the Month December 2014.

Herbs? Tell me more!
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User is offline   m96 

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#54

At least the last guy was able to admit he didn't have time for the project.

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User is offline   MrFlibble 

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#55

Did he actually make anything to show you, or did he just give an initial agreement to do something and then quit?

Managing a project team isn't just giving an assignment and then checking it when it's done. Especially if this is a volunteer, non-profit kind of project like yours. Did you give the guy a deadline? Tell him exactly what to do? Give him some ideas on what to work? Check frequently on his progress?
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User is offline   m96 

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#56

View PostMrFlibble, on 19 December 2015 - 05:01 AM, said:

Did he actually make anything to show you, or did he just give an initial agreement to do something and then quit?

It is the latter. Though almost all of them had little to none portfolio and I accept them out of desperation.

View PostMrFlibble, on 19 December 2015 - 05:01 AM, said:

Managing a project team isn't just giving an assignment and then checking it when it's done. Especially if this is a volunteer, non-profit kind of project like yours. Did you give the guy a deadline? Tell him exactly what to do? Give him some ideas on what to work? Check frequently on his progress?

The guy claimed to be working on test maps and I tried several times but he hasn't shown me a single map of his. I tried to tell him he would be pushed out if he doesn't show the maps but I think he just ignored it. I showed him how to work with the level designer so there is no excuse for his behavior.

I don't like the ignoring of messages because it is a form of poor communication. Speaking of poor communications, another guy (who I thought was the one) agreed to join the project and even is working on the textures. But he just sent me an invitation to Twitter. Since then, he stopped replying through mail. It took me almost two years to contact him on Twitter. He says he has no time to answer mail, but he should have told me that first.

I posted a help topic in the 3D Realms forums. If it fails to garner any help, I'm quitting this project.

See what the rest of the world is missing:
shawsnightmare.ucoz.com

This post has been edited by m96: 20 December 2015 - 08:05 AM

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User is offline   Jblade 

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#57

Quote

I tried to threaten him but I think he just ignored it.

I'm starting to get why nobody wants to help you.
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User is offline   m96 

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#58

No it's not like that. I mean I gave him a choice of showing the maps or be pushed out.

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User is online   Mark. 

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#59

I think one of the stumbling blocks is having to use DOS and Build. From what I can see in screen shots the maps look relatively simple. Is it possible that someone could create the maps in Mapster32 and then use the map converter to change it to the earlier Build map format? That way you might have a better chance of finding a mapper. I realize some of the effects might need to be tweaked in Build but most of the maps geometry could be created in Mapster.

This post has been edited by Mark.: 20 December 2015 - 08:39 AM

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User is online   Mark. 

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#60

After reading these posts and seeing screenshots I finally got curious enough to see what the game is about. So I downloaded version 1.66 on to an old memory stick. From there I had to blow the dust off my ancient Pentium 266 laptop with DOS and WIN98 on it. I transfered the file over and ran the install and setup programs. I can see a whole lot of work went into this project. I really hope he finds someone to help him.
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