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Ion Fury  "formerly Ion Maiden, launching August 15!"

User is offline   Zaxx 

  • Banned

#901

View PostxMobilemux, on 06 March 2018 - 08:22 PM, said:

They'd best kill her off and create a brand new character without the generic restrictions that the 2016 game cornered this prequel into.

Have you played Bombshell? They changed Shelly a lot compared to that game, in Bombshell::

- She looked weird

- Her narration was boring as fuck.

- Her one-liners were annoying.

- The tone of her voice felt off.


Compared to that in Ion Maiden:

- She looks normal, kinda like BJ Blazkowicz in Wolf 3D or like Lo Wang in the new Shadow Warrior games and beat me with a stick if you want to but I prefer this more realistic approach. In Duke 3D and Shadow Warrior it always bugged me that my character is picking up armor but when I look into the mirror I see a guy in a red shirt and a half naked ninja warrior. Someone like Doom guy is dressed for combat and I like that they took this approach with Shelly too. Also as you've already mentioned seeing your armor type match with the profile picture is a really nice touch and guess if we'll be able to look into mirrors in the full game we'll see 3 different versions of Shelly depending on her armor type. That would be so cool and it would fix my "image problem" with Duke and classic Wang.

- No boring narration!

- Her tone and her delivery is pretty damn good and that's what sells her not-super-funny one-liners to me. You get the feeling that she likes what she is doing and her voice is a bit cute with this little "sassy lady" vibe to it and that works with the one-liners because she has something the old Build characters never really had: class. Sure, it's not laugh out loud funny, you don't get that parody vibe here like in the classics where a guy can just rock it with an over the top Chinese accent and say stupid shit like "Split personality!" after cutting a dude in half with a katana. On the other hand you get this kind of situational comedy where you're like "She's a lady, I just shot that dude to pieces with a shotgun and she was like "Some assembly required!" :) It's cool.

As for the gameplay: I think the reloading is good as it is, I like that that's a feature because I love reloading my guns in FPS games. Maybe the clip size of the SMG is a bit too small but I have a feeling that it is like it is because the full version will have dual wielding. If not then 25 bullets is weird, 30-35 would be better. The shotgun I like very much, at first I thought its firing rate was a bit too slow but then I discovered headshots: the firing rate is just slow enough that you really have time to place those headshots precisely so the gun becomes a headshot machine. A shotgun that emphasizes headshots? Count me in!

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 06 March 2018 - 10:49 PM

1

User is offline   Micky C 

  • Honored Donor

#902

Plus people are forgetting that this isn't meant to be a clone of Duke 3D. I don't recall Caleb's lines being funny in Blood for example.

View PostMicky C, on 06 March 2018 - 05:09 PM, said:

I think I found a bug. I was playing Bombardier Trial, then I loaded a save from regular mode. I then climbed up the ladder to the boss area with a level load screen, and suddenly I was stuck with the bowling bomb weapon. Using them decreased their ammo count, so it looks like it was stuck somewhere between the two modes?
I could provide the log if that'd be useful.


So I quit the game, booted it up, reloaded the save of the regular mode, and again when I got to the level with the boss arena I'm still stuck with bowling bombs. Perhaps it would be useful if I provided the save file?

This post has been edited by Micky C: 07 March 2018 - 12:17 AM

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User is offline   xMobilemux 

#903

View PostZaxx, on 06 March 2018 - 10:45 PM, said:

snip

Classic Build FPSs always had unique heroes in the lead that were as memorable as the games themselves and as the first Build FPS in over 19 years I wanted Ion Maiden to have one just as memorable as those guys.
Sadly generic tough soldier girl seems to be the best they could do and that just sucks in my opinion.

Shelly doesn't have anything unique about her other than she's a chick, which was also the problem with the 2016 game, the PMS rocket....good god.

I want a character that actually warrants the name of Ion Maiden, so far she's just standard soldier girl Shelly with obligatory oneliners.

Now on the other hand if Voidpoint has some hidden twist in this prequel in which Shelly gets her arm ripped off, replaced with an early/different cyborg arm, gets some twisted, bloody, badass cyborg look where her armor is all highly damaged, she's badly scared and bloody and that turns her into some rage filled killing machine and we get to go with her on a rage fueled massacre filled with sadistic oneliners and such, then I can see her becoming something worth wanting to see again.
The more I think about that, the cooler she becomes.

In fact what kind of character did Voidpoint even have in mind when they thought up the Ion Maiden title? Or was it just an excuse to not use the Bombshell name?

This post has been edited by xMobilemux: 07 March 2018 - 12:26 AM

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User is offline   oasiz 

  • Dr. Effector

#904

View PostMicky C, on 07 March 2018 - 12:17 AM, said:

So I quit the game, booted it up, reloaded the save of the regular mode, and again when I got to the level with the boss arena I'm still stuck with bowling bombs. Perhaps it would be useful if I provided the save file?


IIRC Mblackwell found a fix for this and it's to be included in the next patch.
2

User is offline   Zaxx 

  • Banned

#905

View PostxMobilemux, on 07 March 2018 - 12:25 AM, said:

Now on the other hand if Voidpoint has some hidden twist in this prequel in which Shelly gets her arm ripped off, replaced with an early/different cyborg arm, gets some twisted, bloody, badass cyborg look where her armor is all highly damaged, she's badly scared and bloody and that turns her into some rage filled killing machine and we get to go with her on a rage fueled massacre filled with sadistic oneliners and such, then I can see her becoming something worth wanting to see again.

Look, I'll be blunt but don't take this the wrong way (it's not an insult, just a basic assessment of the type of character you wanted): you wanted the stupid, they went with the smart. Bombshell actually went with the stupid (she really was the female Duke Nukem) and it was terrible so I'd rather not see that return. Maybe there is a good kind of stupid that would work but we've yet to see that.

Quote

In fact what kind of character did Voidpoint even have in mind when they thought up the Ion Maiden title?

I guess they only thought about this:
https://bombshell.ga....com/Ion_Maiden
The title could indicate that we'll see that robotic arm return.

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 07 March 2018 - 12:47 AM

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User is offline   xMobilemux 

#906

View PostZaxx, on 07 March 2018 - 12:45 AM, said:

Look, I'll be blunt but don't take this the wrong way (it's not an insult, just a basic assessment of the type of character you wanted): you wanted the stupid, they went with the smart. Bombshell actually went with the stupid (she really was the female Duke Nukem) and it was terrible so I'd rather not see that return. Maybe there is a good kind of stupid that would work but we've yet to see that.

Bombshell 2016 didn't work cause they rushed Shelly into the lead role when it was meant to be Duke and her character suffered for it.
Ion Maiden however is a chance to fully realize her in a great FPS, create something different, but all they got was generic soldier.

What's gonna happen when we get to the robot arm part of the prequel? Is it going to become something cool and badass like say the much wanted Quick melee attack in which Shelly gives a quick super punch with the cyborg arm which could be combined with some kind of power source pick up to create Ion Maiden's version of Beserker mode from Doom or is it just gonna be something basic and we see it in a cutscene at the end?
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User is offline   Zaxx 

  • Banned

#907

View PostxMobilemux, on 07 March 2018 - 01:18 AM, said:

What's gonna happen when we get to the robot arm part of the prequel?

Honestly I hope it's the case of "we thought the name of the weapon sounded cool so we took Ion Maiden but that's all" and we never get to the robot arm because if Ion Maiden ends where Bombshell begins then creating DLCs or a sequel becomes hard. If IM is successful (and that's a pretty big if because if you look at something like DUSK it seems that retro FPS is not that hot when it's actually retro, the SteamSpy numbers of DUSK are quite bad) then there is potential for a cool little indie franchise here so I'd rather think of Bombshell as the 10th direct-to-DVD sequel in that franchise instead of the main attraction. But then again frak knows what 3D Realms is thinking, maybe they view IM as a possibility to give a second wind to Bombshell so that if the supposedly significant 1.3 patch arrives they can try "relaunching" that game.

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 07 March 2018 - 01:44 AM

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User is offline   xMobilemux 

#908

I don't see the point in continuing this franchise anyway, Shelly's return isn't gonna be in high demand with how boring and forgettable she is.
Voidpoint is making the same mistake Interceptor made that LGR said in his Bombshell review, "a character action game that seems to have forgotten the character part".
At least in this instance, the game itself will make up for it.

After Ion Maiden, Voidpoint and 3DR would be better off leaving the Ion Maiden and Bombshell licence behind and creating something new with no restrictions.
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User is offline   Daedolon 

  • Ancient Blood God

#909

You seem to be talking about Shelly a lot for someone who is "forgettable" :)

This post has been edited by Daedolon: 07 March 2018 - 02:01 AM

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User is offline   xMobilemux 

#910

View PostDaedolon, on 07 March 2018 - 02:00 AM, said:

You seem to be talking about Shelly awfully lot for someone who is "forgettable" :)

And as soon as I stop talking about her and how disappointed I am in her, will she be remembered? B)

This post has been edited by xMobilemux: 07 March 2018 - 02:04 AM

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User is offline   X-Vector 

#911



Typical Ian Higton gameplay mastery at work.
1

User is offline   Micky C 

  • Honored Donor

#912

View PostxMobilemux, on 07 March 2018 - 01:51 AM, said:

I don't see the point in continuing this franchise anyway, Shelly's return isn't gonna be in high demand with how boring and forgettable she is.
Voidpoint is making the same mistake Interceptor made that LGR said in his Bombshell review, "a character action game that seems to have forgotten the character part".
At least in this instance, the game itself will make up for it.

After Ion Maiden, Voidpoint and 3DR would be better off leaving the Ion Maiden and Bombshell licence behind and creating something new with no restrictions.


Why do you care so much about the character? Most people are simply concerned with the gameplay itself. The Half Life franchise is one of the most popular of all time, and the protagonist has zero character. When I think of Duke Nukem 3D, the level design, atmosphere and interactivity are among the first things that come to mind, not a guy who says things every now and then.

I'd prefer Voidpoint stick to the less-is-more approach.

I'm not even sure how you'd give her per personality without giving her a lot more lines + cutscenes, which in turn would detract from the gameplay.
8

User is offline   NNC 

#913

I literally hate when Duke is trying to joke. Please, stay with a serious, "zero personality" approach.

Btw. Shelly looks good.
2

User is offline   xMobilemux 

#914

View PostMicky C, on 07 March 2018 - 02:22 AM, said:

Why do you care so much about the character? Most people are simply concerned with the gameplay itself. The Half Life franchise is one of the most popular of all time, and the protagonist has zero character. When I think of Duke Nukem 3D, the level design, atmosphere and interactivity are among the first things that come to mind, not a guy who says things every now and then.

I'd prefer Voidpoint stick to the less-is-more approach.

I'm not even sure how you'd give her per personality without giving her a lot more lines + cutscenes, which in turn would detract from the gameplay.

I care cause of 2 Reasons.

1:
Duke Nukem did not span multiple games just because of Duke3D, but because of Duke himself, he was a character you kept on wanting to see again, he himself was a massive reason as to why Duke3D became legendary as well as the level design, interactivity and atmosphere.
As for the other characters like Gordon Freeman, he may not have said anything because he didn't have to, what he was was unique enough, a Theoretical Physicist taking on a alien invasion with a crowbar as his signature weapon, how often do you see that in gaming?
Duke didn't need loads of long lines or cutscenes to become a legend and Freeman didn't need to say anything, but they have become memorable for a reason. Same with characters like Lara Croft, Serious Sam and Doomguy.

2: Because I want some more cool female leads in gaming and I was hoping a cut Duke Nukem character could become one, but a generic female soldier with obligatory Build Engine Era Oneliners is nothing.

Yeah the game itself is going to be great and it's good that they're focusing on that. But I guess I'm the only one who was hoping for more than just a one time nostalgia jolt.
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User is offline   Malgon 

#915

Anyone having the game just dumping back to the desktop with no error at all? It's happened a few times and just twice in ten minutes of playing tonight, so I thought I'd post about it in case it was a known or common issue. It seems to occur when I'm just running around a level while it's been cleared of all the enemies.
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User is offline   oasiz 

  • Dr. Effector

#916

There is a common crashbug that has been fixed but not updated
1

User is offline   cybdmn 

#917

View PostMalgon, on 07 March 2018 - 04:04 AM, said:

Anyone having the game just dumping back to the desktop with no error at all? It's happened a few times and just twice in ten minutes of playing tonight, so I thought I'd post about it in case it was a known or common issue. It seems to occur when I'm just running around a level while it's been cleared of all the enemies.


I had this too, until i realized that my company laptop have just an intel graphics chipset. Then i started the game in software mode and everything was okay.

This post has been edited by cybdmn: 07 March 2018 - 04:34 AM

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User is offline   Malgon 

#918

Thanks oasiz, I figured it might have been something that was known about.
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User is offline   MrFlibble 

#919

Played a bit so far, very nice indeed!

I hope that the full version will have a secret level paying homage to Rise of the Triad and/or Blake Stone, kind of like Doom II did with the secret Wolf3D levels. A Rise of the Triad themed level could have those large open spaces featured here.

Then again, homages to other Build engine games could also be nice too.

This post has been edited by MrFlibble: 07 March 2018 - 04:58 AM

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User is offline   KareBear 

#920

Bought and played through.I enjoyed it a lot the enemies remind me of the Ad Mech Skitarii from 40k and the bowling bombs were really satisfying to use.
1

User is offline   MusicallyInspired 

  • The Sarien Encounter

#921

I love Shelly's lines and personality. Honestly it's exactly what I expected. Actually, I was expecting her tone to be a little dryer than it is. I don't know why. But her lines are delivered with more life and energy than I would have thought (for some reason) and it's fantastic. Like Forge, I just want more of them. But again, maybe that's just due to the fact that I'm spending so much time exploring an empty map for secrets after I've killed everybody (this probably also lends itself to the repetitive music issue some people have). Perhaps when you discover a new secret area it should spawn more bad guys somewhere else? Just to keep the action going and make it seem like there are more enemies than there are?

Also, Shelly's design is bothering me less and less.

This post has been edited by MusicallyInspired: 07 March 2018 - 06:14 AM

3

User is online   NightFright 

  • The Truth is in here

#922

View PostTerminX, on 06 March 2018 - 01:59 PM, said:

It fixes a bunch of stuff. The biggest user facing change is that the player input is now no longer locked to whole units as far as the player's resulting .ang and .horiz are concerned. This means that the player's view angle can be at values in between the engine's traditional .ang and .horiz units. It's way smoother!

You just applied this to the latest EDuke32 snapshot as well, right? I can tell because my mouse sensitivity suddenly changed.

This post has been edited by NightFright: 07 March 2018 - 08:00 AM

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User is offline   Zaxx 

  • Banned

#923

Feels more precise too... time for some low sens Duke 3D! :) Btw. what does the filter input setting do exactly? As far as I can tell it's not mouse acceleration.

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 07 March 2018 - 08:15 AM

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User is online   NightFright 

  • The Truth is in here

#924

Well, I have the feeling that mouse sensitivity needs to be reviewed now. I am at max (16.0) and still don't get the same sensitivity I used to have before the update. At least that's what it seems to me now (don't kill me for slightly being OT here, but I guess it's also relevant for Ion Maiden).
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User is offline   Zaxx 

  • Banned

#925

View PostNightFright, on 07 March 2018 - 08:18 AM, said:

Well, I have the feeling that mouse sensitivity needs to be reviewed now. I am at max (16.0) and still don't get the same sensitivity I used to have before the update. At least that's what it seems to me now (don't kill me for slightly being OT here, but I guess it's also relevant for Ion Maiden).

That sounds a bit weird. I set it to 1.73 and that's where I get the 15-18 cm / 360 I usually play FPS with. That's with my mouse set to 1600 dpi.
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User is offline   OpenMaw 

  • Judge Mental

#926

View PostMusicallyInspired, on 07 March 2018 - 06:13 AM, said:

I love Shelly's lines and personality. Honestly it's exactly what I expected. Actually, I was expecting her tone to be a little dryer than it is. I don't know why. But her lines are delivered with more life and energy than I would have thought (for some reason) and it's fantastic.


If I had to wager it's the context of her character at work. She was sandled with all that PTSD stuff in Bombshell which made her character come off as grim and angry. All the monologues during the loading screens seemed very dry and somber. Brooding, brooding, brooding.

This Bombshell definitely likes the cheese on her pizza.

View PostMicky C, on 07 March 2018 - 02:22 AM, said:

I'm not even sure how you'd give her per personality without giving her a lot more lines + cutscenes, which in turn would detract from the gameplay.


Doom 2016 gave us plenty of examples of how to give a character personality without having the protagonist talk.

"I assure you, everything we did was for the betterment of human kind" *glances down at a corpse and furiously cracks his knuckles*

A character's personality, their PERSONA are handle by so much more than just talking. Duke's roster of weapons (the mighty boot in particular) and items (the steroids) chime in on the personality. Who they are fighting against and what the motivation is. I would say the only major weak point so far are the enemies at play, with the exception of the robo-spider head. We need more of Haskel's mad science-y stuff at work.
4

User is offline   MusicallyInspired 

  • The Sarien Encounter

#927

I never actually played Bombshell yet so I wasn't actually comparing her lines from that to this game. But if it is drier and more brooding than in Ion Maiden as you say, I gotta say I prefer Ion Maiden.
2

User is offline   Bloodshot 

#928

Are there plans to have coop eventually?
0

#929

On the subject of one-liners and personality:
From my personal observations, recapturing the lightning-in-a-bottle that were the one-liners of Duke 3D and Shadow Warrior in a new game, whether it has classic or modern gameplay, is a task I consider very hard to achieve, and requires not only a good sense of tact and comedy, but also good skills in the writing department.

What makes a memorable, likeable, one-liner spouting character in a video game that has minimal character interactions or story?

On one hand, they need to radiate some sort of unique personality so that the character remains in people's minds for long after they finish the game. On the other, the lines need to mesh well with the overall setting and the gameplay, so that they do not stand out in an overtly negative way or get annoying over time. Another important condition that needs to be fulfilled, at least according to my own observations, is that the lines the characters say need to be timeless and generic enough so that they are applicable in various different scenarios, but also fit the personality of each individual character. This means that memes and dated references to cultural phenomena that are likely to become disliked within the next years or even months are usually a very bad choice for one-liners. However, references to timeless classics in pop culture, such as movies like the Evil Dead series, or even other video games can be acceptable, given that they are subtle enough and not cringeworthy.

There's actually a very good example of this in Ion Maiden that I'd like to point out. Upon killing an enemy, on rare occasions Shelly will state "Laputan Machine", referencing Gunther Hermann's killphrase from Deus Ex. It's not an incredibly obvious reference, since it requires someone to have played through most of Deus Ex to know where it comes from, but it also is very applicable to the situation in-game itself, since the enemies are mechanically augmented humans, and the phrase itself is basically insulting them as failed machinery. If you intend on doing references in more common one-liners, this is the way to go.

Other lines like "Hail to the king, baby" or "I stick a firecracker in your ass, haha!" are appropriate in any setting, and fit Duke and Lo Wang perfectly. And of course, the delivery of these lines is also essential. Lo Wang's stupid quips wouldn't be half as funny if it weren't for John Galt's unique voice and delivery. The same goes for Duke and Jon St. John, and doubly so, since we can observe in World Tour that some of the re-recorded lines don't have nearly the same effect they did in the original recordings.
Finally, it also helps if the lines are few and far between, i.e. that they are not triggered on every possible instance where they could occur. They also need to be varied enough so that the same line can't be triggered twice or three times in succession. This can be seen in the recently released PSX TC for Duke 3D even, where the "Hehehe, what a mess" line, while usually pretty funny, overstays its welcome quickly simply due to how often it is triggered. Or in the ROTT remake, where each time a new weapon is picked up, the character you play as spouts another tired line that you've like heard about 10 times before.

Few modern games have managed to find this sweet spot of enjoyable one-liners. Most either undershoot the target, and make the character rather boring and forgettable, or they overshoot and make them annoying as fuck.
Bubsy the Bobcat, for example, is a good role model for unique personality, but a very bad one for making a character likeable. One could even argue that the only reason Bubsy is memorable is due to how incredibly annoying he is.

Other bad examples can be found in Interceptor's previous games. As mentioned before, in the ROTT remake, the lines the characters spout are way too common and in some cases, extremely annoying, causing me to turn them off by the second level.
The absolute worst example here is Lorelei Ni by far ( for your own displeasure). Not only are her lines extremely cringeworthy and annoying (like when picking up the shrooms powerup, jesus christ, who thought that making her shout BAD TRIP multiple times in a row like an autist was a good idea?), but she also sounds like a sassy American prep girl instead of a Chinese special-ops agent. Literally every single decision in the design of this character was terrible, and the game would have been better off having the characters be mute rather than having them chatter constantly.

Since the ROTT remake got mostly positive reviews despite the fact, it was obvious that Shelly was also going to have really frequent and annoying lines in Bombshell. While not as bad, it suffered from many of the same problems, and this fact was often pointed out in reviews for the game.
As for Rad Rodgers, that I cannot fairly judge that since I never played it, but from the gameplay videos, I can tell it relies on a very high dose of self-referential humor.

This brings me to another point:
Don't do overtly self-referential humor. It's been so overdone in recent times to the point where every time a game tries to act clever by breaking the fourth wall, I almost want to groan. It's just lame, and more importantly, it destroys immersion. Breaking the fourth wall is not clever if you overdo it.

Let's move on to positive examples when it comes to one-liners in shooters:

The first one is the Postal series, whose Dude is the closest a more modern character has gotten to the likes of Duke and Lo Wang in terms of one-liners. The Dude has a large repertoire of consistently good lines to say upon performing common actions (such as blowing stuff up) that satirize American culture, but also don't get old over time. This also carries over into its recently released expansion "Paradise Lost", proving that it is still possible to do clever lines without coming over as lame or annoying.
In terms of personality, Serious Sam probably comes closest to Duke Nukem, and his lines have also been consistently good over all games he's appeared in. However, most lines in the Serious Sam games only occur as scripted events, so the comparison might not be as fitting as with the Postal games.

So how does Ion Maiden and Shelly fare?
In my opinion, especially compared to some of the worse examples I mentioned, Voidpoint did a good job with Shelly's lines. It's not as good as Postal, but definitely in the 95th percentile of these kinds of shooters.
The aforementioned "Laputan Machine" line is great, but the "Domo Arrigato Mr. Roboto" line for example is a bit too in-your-face and "eh" for my tastes.
Furthermore, there are only very few lines that really do get on your nerves, and most of them are generic enough not to become annoying or repetitive after a while. ("Dodge this" or "I never miss" for example, are hard to overdo)
Also, and I think this is also partly due to the engine, lines on killing enemies are themselves pretty rare, which is a big step up from Bombshell. And the delivery from the voice actress is also pretty good.

However, one downside I see at the moment is that her lines don't really entertain as much as Duke's or Lo Wang's, and are mostly pretty bland. At the end of the day, we need to keep in mind that one-liners are first and foremost supposed to entertain.
Otherwise, why even have them be there, if not to add to the enjoyment of the game?

Overall though, I vastly prefer bland one-liners to one-liners that get annoying and make you disable them altogether, hence why I value this more positively than ROTT or Bombshell.
I do hope we are going to see some more variety, and some expansion on her personality in the final game.

All in all, I'd say Voidpoint did do most of these points pretty well, resulting in a good end product.

(I will now go and reconsider my life decisions, and evaluate what brought me to the point of writing an essay on one-liners in FPS games on a random Duke 3D forum...)

This post has been edited by Doom64hunter: 07 March 2018 - 10:59 AM

9

User is offline   OpenMaw 

  • Judge Mental

#930

Well written, sir. I'd actually love to see someone like noclip or retroahoy do a retrospective documentary on video game... ah, personalities.
0

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