[NuclearWastE3]

Hello, everyone,
I'm just curious to know if I should go with Eduke32 if I want to make my own custom maps and models. I'm not talking about Duke Nukem 3D maps, I'm talking about making my own original maps that have nothing to do with Duke Nukem; in other words, a total conversion. I have seen the power of Eduke32 (especially with the work of the many talented modders here, on this forum) and it is quite impressive -damn, I'm in love with the thing- but I'm wondering, if say, using Doom Builder or any other Doom level designer is better (easier) than using Eduke32's Mapster. The only reason I'm asking this question is because I have a grown to wonder why there are soooo many Doom and Doom II mods compared to that of Duke Nukem 3D. Is it simply because Doom is more popular than Duke Nukem? Or is it because there is something "special" about the Doom programs that make it easier to make your own custom work?

It'd be great to hear the opinion from those who have worked, using both Mapster and a Doom Builder (of any sort), but everyone else's is just as appreciated.

Thank you for your time
-Comrade Nuclear

[Jblade]

Well, Gzdoom and Zdoom have a lot of built in features and already existing content that make it easier for a newbie to get started. There's also the fairly mod friendly feature of Doom where you can combine wads and most of the time it will work with no problems at all. Conversely, Eduke32 is not as user friendly but is immensely more powerful and gives you access to pretty much every feature of the game possible - level design is fairly easy (hard to master though!)

If I were you I'd take a look at the internals of some duke projects like WGR2, DNF2013 or AMC TC and see if you can make sense of the workings. Than do the same for some popular Doom mods. The audience for Doom is larger but if you have the know how than the possibilities of Eduke32 are enormous Having said that, if you make a TC than posting it on moddb will guarantee a wider audience. Both of my big mods I've worked on have over a thousand downloads on that site.

[Mark]

Everyone learns and progresses at different speeds but if you are not familiar with mapping or model creation and CON coding be prepared for things to go slowly at first. I learned how to map and make textures and models all at the same time and I spent about a year on my first project which was a TC. I'm sure others will suggest that you start small and work your way towards a full blown TC after you become more proficent at mapping. I wish I would have.

I have no experience with Doom mapping so I can't say much about that. But mapping for Eduke32 is fun and its a feature loaded game engine.

[NuclearWastE3]

@Jblade : Wow, Jblade, impressive work!! I really like your TCs; and though, I haven't played them yet, they look fantastic. I look forward to playing them -as well as every other D3D mod out there. I will also check out the contents of the other mods you mentioned. I'm interested to check out the Doom Wad combination thing too. One mod for Doom that I'm drawn to check out its "works" is Brutal Doom.
I've slowly been trying to get started with modding D3D, but I've been jumbled in a heap of backlog games and college. Now, since it's basically Christmas break, I will finally get some time to settle down and start on several ideas that I've had for quite a while.

@Mark. : Yeah, I'm definitely not familiar with mapping/model creations. All I have is a lot of ideas running through my head that appear impossible to the eyes of a noob when faced with a bunch of modding tools I have no idea how to use . I have got to start somewhere though, and your words of wisdom has ward me from going straight to my TC project. I could only imagine how difficult it must have been to learn something when you go straight for the steak without having tired the appetizers first (weird analogy). Which TC did you make, anyway?

Thank you very much, you two! I had a hunch that Eduke32 was the way to go, but I just needed another person's opinion before I dived into things. I'll still check out the Doom editors, but I don't think I'll go much into depth as with Eduke32. Something about sprites and 1990's graphics attracts me; and being able to make a game with that technology just seems amazing!

-Comrade Nuclear

[Mark]

My TC was Ancient Rome. It was released unfinished. Another reason for starting small and working your way up is that if and when you can show the community that you have some skills they will be more willing to help or join your project if you ask for it. Guys with ideas only usually don't get very far. Good luck in the future.

[NuclearWastE3]

Thanks again, Mark. . I will do that.
And thanks, to the both of you, for the quick responses!

-Comrade Nuclear

[Micky C]

I'm under the impression that doom modding (at least the mapping part) is easier than mapping for Duke, however this mostly due to the fact that doom maps are much less flexible than Duke maps, hence you don't need to invest the extra time tweaking all the additional aspects, or learning all the controls for them. I had no idea that Doom maps couldn't do things like have custom texture panning/stretching, or different shades on different surfaces for example.

I've also been told one of the big reasons why doom modding is currently bigger than Duke modding is because Dukeworld closed down, along with several mods/modding teams hosting stuff on it, while Doomworld did not. It's probably not the only reason; Doom's probably more popular, and as I said the mapping is "easier", but I can see why the shutdown wouldn't have helped things. (Apparently lots of people lost work on their mods when it happened? If so, big motivation killer, not to mention reduced audience).

[MYHOUSE.MAP]

Doom's modding scene has less to do with the actual capabities of the engine and more because of the huge surge of popularity it's gotten from nostalgic and fauxstalgic types. The engine is barebones enough that anyone can make a decent map, and the popularity of it being "TEH BESTEST FPS GMAE IN THE WORLD!!!" means it's much easier to find tools that let you load maps and the like, making the experience a lot more user friendly than something like trying to load a Quake 1 mod.

My understanding is that you can make more detailed mods with DN3D, but the Doom community has a larger support base. If you're willing to brave through less support and tutorials, you could probably make a mod closer to your original vision with DN3D.

[Jblade]

Micky C, on 11 December 2014 - 10:39 PM, said:

I've also been told one of the big reasons why doom modding is currently bigger than Duke modding is because Dukeworld closed down, along with several mods/modding teams hosting stuff on it, while Doomworld did not. It's probably not the only reason; Doom's probably more popular, and as I said the mapping is "easier", but I can see why the shutdown wouldn't have helped things. (Apparently lots of people lost work on their mods when it happened? If so, big motivation killer, not to mention reduced audience).

I was around when it happened, and yes Dukeworld dying off really did hurt us quite severely. PlanetDuke was a poor replacement. There's still a bunch of TCs that have disappeared forever due to dukeworld's death (The Collision Course TC was one of them - it was pretty popular and I remember liking the demo. I doubt it would stand the test of time at all but still)

[zykov eddy]

Jblade, on 12 December 2014 - 05:31 AM, said:

I was around when it happened, and yes Dukeworld dying off really did hurt us quite severely. PlanetDuke was a poor replacement. There's still a bunch of TCs that have disappeared forever due to dukeworld's death (The Collision Course TC was one of them - it was pretty popular and I remember liking the demo. I doubt it would stand the test of time at all but still)

Is demo still aveliable somewhere?

[Jblade]

No, but that's what I mean - they've disappeared entirely so nobody can play them again. it sucks, but shit happens in the world of the internet. All it takes is for one website to shut down and then files can be lost forever.

[Hendricks266]

Jblade, on 12 December 2014 - 05:31 AM, said:

There's still a bunch of TCs that have disappeared forever due to dukeworld's death (The Collision Course TC was one of them - it was pretty popular and I remember liking the demo. I doubt it would stand the test of time at all but still)

Unless there's something I don't know about, dukeworld.duke4.net is a complete backup of all dukeworld's data.

[Jblade]

From when? There's no trace of the mod I'm talking about (it was just a demo but it's not under TCs or anywhere I can see)

[zykov eddy]

Maybe there's still someone who has the original demo files? If it was free to download for everyone, I bet someone still has it.

[TerminX]

Jblade, on 12 December 2014 - 10:49 AM, said:

From when? There's no trace of the mod I'm talking about (it was just a demo but it's not under TCs or anywhere I can see)

The problem with Collision Course is that they just uploaded their demo to their hosted site instead of the FTP, as they were supposed to do. If they had followed the Dukeworld file hosting instructions back then the demo wouldn't be lost to time.

No CCDEMO2.ZIP for you.

[Jblade]

That explains it then, thanks - to be fair it's probably best left to the ages, I doubt it would live up to the memories I had of it anyways.

[Sixty Four]

My post will be biased Duke has better build engine with Mapster32 and more flexibility plus ability to jump :S and don't tell me about the versions where you can jump in Doom because it still don't feel natural I don't know, I like to jump. Mapster32 would be the best to use in terms of being easier to use but SW build engine has even more advanced features then Duke even the Blood version could be a thought. But it's like the learning process never stops with build always something to do. Perhaps if you don't want to take time to learn so much stuff because there is so much to learn to create your own mod/tc then go with Doom. This coming from someone who only uses Mapster32 honestly didn't even finish one map for Doom though so don't know what my opinion would mean.

[zykov eddy]

Found some screenshots of Collision Course. Looks kinda "meh".

[Sixty Four]

The smg looks decent in the photo there for collision course.

I guess I am learning something when I read Doom community is larger not through my vision not what I see then again i'm not involved in any Doom forums just a personal fan and my attention is fully on Duke Nukem and don't pay any attention to Doom mods. From what I see Duke is pretty damn big whether it is someone who doesn't really know much or someone fully informed or someone on duke4 or someone on steam. Duke has major fans but as a new game I think making him more like Duke 64 would be smart about now a bit less about sex more about fucking someone up with big guns including explosive shotti.

[Daedolon]

Dunno who made that SMG, but was in like 50 mods and TCs back in the day.

[♥Coraline♥]

Yeah I think the only real thing DOOM has over BUILD (Doom Builder vs Mapster/Eduke) is the usability. Designing a map for Duke3D and ilk is an absolute nightmare. With DOOM it can be done fairly easily, and a lot of comparable features match and even surpass the BUILD engine, though it depends on which source port you use. Though, I used to use the level editor that came with Blood back in the day (and a little bit of Build) and it wasn't hard for me to slap a map together. It was just the interface, really. Like others said, jumping will always feel more natural in BUILD because the engine was designed to use it. Though a DOOM map+port can be just as natural because it can be fine tweaked.

People prefer what they are experienced with. I don't know the intricacies of Eduke32 or whatever, but it definitely looks like it's come a long way from the original BUILD variant Duke3D used.

Being a source port author, I always wanted to look into the map format for Duke3D because I remember the formats being similar in some places, but then I remembered the nightmare G/ZDoom are facing with their non-GPL status. I'd rather keep my port GPL-compatible as much as possible.

[Micky C]

Mapping for Duke is a piece of cake once you've got a bit of experience behind you. Mapster32 has come a long, long way from the original Build. While the overall interface is the same, it's got a million little conveniences that make mapping faster, easier, and somewhat more intuitive, not to mention extra safeguards to ensure you don't screw your map up corruption-wise.

[Mblackwell]

Daedolon, on 13 December 2014 - 01:17 AM, said:

Dunno who made that SMG, but was in like 50 mods and TCs back in the day.

And changing the crosshair to a laser dot was also a big thing.

Also there were mods lost when TotalConversions.com went under too.

Unless someone magically grabbed all of them (not I).

[Micky C]

Didn't modders, idk, keep copies of their own mods on their personal computers?

[Mark]

I still worry that this mod, mentioned in the "unfinished thread", disappears forever since only one person has it.

[Jblade]

Micky C, on 14 December 2014 - 04:56 AM, said:

Didn't modders, idk, keep copies of their own mods on their personal computers?

You'd think that but if someone moves on from the game they genuinely might not care anymore about some old stuff they did and not bother to move stuff across to new HDs when they upgrade. Things get easily lost if your PC is on the way out and you forget about things (or if you don't care anymore)

[Fox]

Huh, I keep copies of the shitties things I created.

[Mark]

Is your HD close to full?

[Daedolon]

I have backups of backups of backups of backups (not kidding, the backups I make end up in subsequent backups), the originals of which I used to take almost bimonthly. Yet a thing I lost had not a single backup made of it, go figure.

[zykov eddy]

Mark., on 14 December 2014 - 05:47 AM, said:

I still worry that this mod, mentioned in the "unfinished thread", disappears forever since only one person has it.

Actually, I also have it. My version is pretty outdated, but it has everything shown in old trailers and screenshots.