[DNSkill]

Was it the download demo that had a different starting point on level 1?

[Corvin]

Nope, It starts the same place, just with no weapons, and the levels look a little different.

[DNSkill]

I meant behind the player at the start of level one, is there something that looks like a boat dock? The version I have doesn't have that, it has a locked door.

[Corvin]

yeah. It looks cooler in the DL demo, it has a boat and water and a gate you see threw.

Edit: Sounds like they took the registered full version and cut it down for that preview.
Can I get an iso of that CD?

[Corvin]

@EG

Range of Melee Weapons; How difficult is it to read the range of the weapons in the source code?

WH2 Veteran Character Level: I read on your site about WH2's experience levels; I think Capstone starts you off as a Veteran cause the game is a true sequel to the first. Assuming the player character in the story has completed all the levels and experience. Same deal why they don't require you to gain levels for spells, you already completed that in the previous game. You may want to correct that text on your site.

Also I watch a video recently of one of Capstone developer talking, he said they where going to have different characters, such as a warrior and mage, but they opted out of that idea and preferred combining the characters into one.

[DNSkill]

I can try and burn it to ISO next week. I'm out of town right now. I don't know of many differences with it besides the disc and the storyline being different from the final version.

[Corvin]

Thanks I appreciate it.

Not to get off topic but I found out there's a Tekwar Interactive Preview too.

Anyhow I'll wait for that ISO.

[ETTiNGRiNDER]

Corvin, on 02 December 2014 - 02:31 PM, said:

@EG
Range of Melee Weapons; How difficult is it to read the range of the weapons in the source code?

From Witchaven II's WHPLR.C

int
checkweapondist(short i, long x, long y, long z, char guntype)
{

     int  length;

     if (selectedgun == 0) {
          length = 1024;
     }
     else {
          switch (selectedgun) {
          case 1:
               length = 1024;
               break;
          case 2:
          case 3:
          case 4:
          case 5:
               length = 1536;
               break;
          case 6:
               length = 2048;
               break;
          case 7:
               length = 1024;
               break;
          case 8:
          case 9:
               length = 2048;
               break;
          }
     }
     if ((labs(x - sprite[i].x) + labs(y - sprite[i].y) < length) && (labs((z >> 8) - ((sprite[i].z >> 8) - (tilesizy[sprite[i].picnum] >> 1))) <= (length >> 3)))
          return (1);
     else
          return (0);
}

To simplify that a bit (claimed ranges from the WH1 manual in brackets)
- Fist: 1024 [5 feet]
- Dagger: 1024 [5 feet]
- Short Sword: 1536 [5 feet]
- Morning Star: 1536 [7 feet]
- Broad Sword: 1536 [10 feet]
- Battle Axe: 1536 [7 feet]
- Magic Bow: 2048* [Unlimited]
- Pike Axe: 1024 [7 feet]
- Two-Handed sword: 2048 [12 feet]
- Halberd: 2048 [15 feet]

As you can see, the values don't always line up with what the manual says. Either ranges were changed between the two games (possible, but I haven't checked yet) or the manual is just plain wrong (likely, given some other instances where I've found it to be wrong about how stuff works). They're not used as bare values either, but I'm not sure how the formula at the end works exactly.

* Obviously, the bow has better range than this. In the function swingdaweapon it calls shootgun(plr, daang, 1) where the other weapons call shootgun(plr, daang, 0). That "1" makes it perform a different block of attack code altogether from the melee weapons, one that doesn't appear to use checkweapondist at all. From a quick glance at the code, it appears "unlimited" is correct for its range. This also calls to my attention that I looked at the wrong place to determine how much damage the bow is meant to do. The bow damage formula (in Witchaven II at least) is (krand() & 30) + 15 but I haven't hashed out exactly what this means yet, except that arrows do at least 15 damage per shot. It's probably going to be a bit ugly since I don't think the Capstone programmers properly understood what an & operator is supposed to do, and stuff that uses krand() & x formulae in this game seem to be bugged in ways beyond that, which I don't fully understand myself (for instance, the selector between getting treasure or a poison trap in the treasure chest code used it in a way that should have worked by my understanding, but didn't).

Corvin, on 02 December 2014 - 02:31 PM, said:

WH2 Veteran Character Level: I read on your site about WH2's experience levels; I think Capstone starts you off as a Veteran cause the game is a true sequel to the first. Assuming the player character in the story has completed all the levels and experience. Same deal why they don't require you to gain levels for spells, you already completed that in the previous game. You may want to correct that text on your site.

That's my theory too, but I'm not sure where you think the page is wrong. Or you just think I should say that he's probably meant to be a higher level than the levels in the original?

Corvin, on 02 December 2014 - 02:31 PM, said:

Also I watch a video recently of one of Capstone developer talking, he said they where going to have different characters, such as a warrior and mage, but they opted out of that idea and preferred combining the characters into one.

I think I saw that mentioned somewhere too, but I haven't seen a video of it. Have a link?

As for compiling the BUILD editor for WH1, I haven't been able to get it to work yet. It seems as if stuff is missing from the WH1 source archive or something, since it gets errors about variables and such not being there, and I haven't figured out how to properly patch them in yet (I can make the compile errors go away enough to get an EXE, but only a crashing or dysfunctional one so far.)

[Corvin]

Thank you EG for explaining all that. Those values look like build units, like in the editor.
Heres what I came up with years ago, don't know now how close I was to getting it right:

Using the default Grid 3

1 BLK = 256 BLD Units
(1024 BLD Units = 80 pixels or 8')

As far as the text on your site: "(reasonable, I suppose, given that there were fewer dungeons as well.)" Maybe reword it to something else talking about the sequal and the story??
I don't know it just seemed like you thought the Veteran level was started there cause of few maps...

About compiling BUILD Editor: I was speaking of the WH2 editor, there was one file (BSTUB.C) that was dated newer than the actual released editor.

[ETTiNGRiNDER]

Corvin, on 03 December 2014 - 05:08 PM, said:

As far as the text on your site: "(reasonable, I suppose, given that there were fewer dungeons as well.)" Maybe reword it to something else talking about the sequal and the story??
I don't know it just seemed like you thought the Veteran level was started there cause of few maps...

About compiling BUILD Editor: I was speaking of the WH2 editor, there was one file (BSTUB.C) that was dated newer than the actual released editor.

I see what you mean. That line is actually meant to refer to the max level being lower (in Witchaven II there are seven XP levels and you max out at 60,000 XP, which I tend to reach around the eighth dungeon if I get there on one life, while in the original there are apparently nine XP levels and you max out at 280,000 XP which I don't think I ever reached having played through the game at least three or four times.) I can go back over that bit.

I'll see what I can do about the BUILD editor for WH2, I thought you had said something about using the TekWar editor on WH1 but it not doing entirely what you expected it to.

[Corvin]

 ETTiNGRiNDER, on 03 December 2014 - 05:47 PM, said:

I see what you mean. That line is actually meant to refer to the max level being lower (in Witchaven II there are seven XP levels and you max out at 60,000 XP, which I tend to reach around the eighth dungeon if I get there on one life, while in the original there are apparently nine XP levels and you max out at 280,000 XP which I don't think I ever reached having played through the game at least three or four times.) I can go back over that bit.

I'll see what I can do about the BUILD editor for WH2, I thought you had said something about using the TekWar editor on WH1 but it not doing entirely what you expected it to.

About the Editor; without looking back I think in a separate breath and post I said I would try TekWar's Editor with WH1 maps. I gotta spend more time writing my posts I think
Anyhow I looked at the Tekwar BUILD Editor and it has specifics in it for Tekwars sprite extensions. I assume WH1 Editor has specifics for itself too.

But I originally asked about the WH2 BUILD Editor, I'm sorry, It was my mistake in my posting. So it is the WH2 BUILD Editor I was hoping that had some improvements within the src code release since the one file was newer.

[MrBlackCat]

I have this one...




Just took a quick picture with my camera. If anyone wants an actual scan, I can get it, but seeing as my box has some pretty good wear on it, it might not be optimal source material for such a scan.

MrBlackCat

[Corvin]

I already found one scan/picture of the box. Thanks anyhow MrBlackCat. You been very helpful and I appreciate it.

Is the key sheet of any real interest? Good 300 dpi scan of that might be helpful!

[Corvin]

@EG, Heres the Link for Witchaven review from 1995

This is a nostagic review from IE (Interactive entertainment) episode 19 , a CD-ROM game magazine.


This is a nostagic preview from IE (Interactive Entertainment) episode 16 , a CD-rom game magazine.


Coming Soon 1995
http://www.csoon.com/issue10/witch.htm

[Corvin]

@EG

This is from BME on how he finds the x-movement of the mouse in EGwhaven:
"so if you move the mouse slow the turning resolution is fine (as in "detailed") and very coarse when you move it fast."
he also commented on again
"...left and right, I mean when you move it slowly the steps are smaller, if you move it faster the step becomes bigger."

He was hoping that can be tweaked a bit, probably better resolution at higher speed movement.

[Corvin]

EXAMPLE.MAP

I been using the existing BUILD Editor for WH2, but I was wondering if in the example map that comes with WH2 Editor if the arrows come out of the wall when you pull the chain?

I been trying to figure out why that trap is not working, I think its tagged right, but in WH2 v2.0g its not working....

EDIT: Its not working in v2.0c either nor EGwhaven v0.2
Makes me wonder if the traps are not working in the regular maps.

[ETTiNGRiNDER]

 Corvin, on 07 December 2014 - 08:46 PM, said:

EXAMPLE.MAP

I been using the existing BUILD Editor for WH2, but I was wondering if in the example map that comes with WH2 Editor if the arrows come out of the wall when you pull the chain?

I been trying to figure out why that trap is not working, I think its tagged right, but in WH2 v2.0g its not working....

EDIT: Its not working in v2.0c either nor EGwhaven v0.2

I'll look into this when I get a chance. It might be another case of the instructions being inaccurate, like with the command for loading levels. There are some things possible in Witchaven II maps that aren't really documented, too, like the patrol point things that I want to look into at some point, also the flowing water specials from the first game still work in WH2, but were never used in the maps even though some could have benefited from it.

Re-tweaking the mouse code is one of the top priorities for EGwhaven v0.3.

[Corvin]

Do you know off hand which WH1 maps have flowing water?

I take it by flowing water you mean with a current, not just animated?

EDIT: I found level 17 of WH1 has flowing water, but no current. I'll try to see how it was made and document it if successful.

[ETTiNGRiNDER]

 Corvin, on 08 December 2014 - 02:58 PM, said:

Do you know off hand which WH1 maps have flowing water?

I take it by flowing water you mean with a current, not just animated?

EDIT: I found level 17 of WH1 has flowing water, but no current. I'll try to see how it was made and document it if successful.

Just animated. I think the cave where you can find a morning star on the very first level has it.

[Corvin]

gave the sector a tag of
0,84 to flow north
0,80 to flow south
0,86 flows west
0,82 flows east

Then theres 0,1 tag for a water fall on a red line.....

[attachment=8824:EXAMPLE0.zip]


That's all I figured out so far. Maybe you can detail the instructions better cause I'm at a loss how to really do it correctly.

CREATING WATER FLOW (no current)

1- Create your sector
2- Apply your water texture(tile90) or slime(tile05)
3- Change the water palette to Blue(PAL06) in 3D Mode with ALT P
Make sure the cursor is pointed at the water.
4- Apply the following Sector Tags in 2D Mode.
Make sure the cursor is on the water.
HIGH, LOW Tags
--------------
0,84 to flow north
0,80 to flow south
0,86 flows west
0,82 flows east


CREATING WATER FALL FLOW (no current)


0,1 red line



I'll have to keep testing, but I managed to create a water fall now.

[DNSkill]

I will get the ISO and whatnot next weekend hopefully. Things have been pretty busy over here.

The key sheet is interesting because it is attached to the manual (I showed the cover and storyline of the manual).

[ETTiNGRiNDER]

 Corvin, on 08 December 2014 - 06:08 PM, said:

gave the sector a tag of
0,84 to flow north
0,80 to flow south
0,86 flows west
0,82 flows east

Judging by the source, there should also be 81, 83, 85, 87 for northeast, southeast, southwest and northwest respectively.

I also poked around in the source a bit more to see about other undocumented specials. There are some. (Not sure if I caught all of them, but it's a start)

The following seem to work the same way as the floor/ceiling specials documented in the manual (for tag XXYY, YY tells the game how many units to move floor/ceiling, and to trigger the movement a pull chain or floor plate is needed):
* sector lotags from 1500 to 1599 make both the floor and ceiling move downwards.
* sector lotags from 1600 to 1699 make both the floor and ceiling move upwards.

Haven't entirely worked these out...
* sector lotags from 1800 to 1899 is a moving floor that can be triggered multiple times by a floor plate. It first moves up, then down, but when it moves downwards it seems never to stop unless it's triggered to move up again, so I guess this might be a broken function or I'm not setting it up correctly. The different tag values in this range seem only to affect how long the stone grinding sound plays.
* sector lotags from 1900 to 1999 appear to be crush traps. The sector needs a pull chain or floor pad to activate it. If the lotag ends in 1, the floor goes up, if it ends in 2, the ceiling comes down. If it ends in 5, floor and ceiling both move to meet each other. I'm not sure about other numbers.

I found this as well, which seems to be an unused feature, but works:
* A sector lotag of 10000 makes a "bobbing sector" (the floor continuously goes up and down by a small amount, sort of like the "floor waggle" special in Hexen).

The following didn't seem to actually do anything when I tried them in a map, and looking at the source there might not be accompanying code for them in Witchaven 2. I haven't checked the WH1 source regarding these yet.
* sector lotag 70 is read as a "skypan" sector
* sector lotags from 900 to 999 are read as a "lavadryland" sector

[Corvin]

Alright thanks, I'll see what I can create and test out with that information.



What about ambient sounds?

I was trying to give the water fall a sound with Tile: 2369 (Snd Loop) as which was done in WH1, but couldn't get it to work...
I used the source code to find the defined snds and used that number with tags 0,4
But I couldn't find an example in the WH2 maps only in WH1 maps. It's possible in WH2 they do the ambient sound based on the textures used??

Is the code still present in WH2 to use snd loop and others?

[Corvin]

Here's a 640x480 BUILD.DAT file.

[attachment=8826:BUILDSVGADAT.zip]

I could go higher I think in res but you really don't need it.
Just use Ken S. SETUP.EXE from his ken-build archive if you need to play around with it.

[DNSkill]

Here's that ISO of the 3 level preview I promised.

[Corvin]

That 3 Level Preview includes a readme, and the WH.EXE is apparently a variant of v1.0, it's even larger in size than the Registered version, very odd. The maps look like there the register version too....same with artwork.

This was defiantly made after the registered version was released, so the WH.EXE variant is newer than the one that came with the full game. I could only image bugs fixes rather than features. But who knows. But the mouse patch is even newer than that exe.

The WH1 source code seems to be somewhere in between all of these variants...but its unclear where the snapshot was taken, at least to me.

[Corvin]

Expanded WH2 Level Editor Manual.

Here we have the newly updated manual, most of the errors where rooted out of the document.
We added as much unknown stuff as possible plus WH1 effects too there are not used in WH2.
Hopefully I'll be able to update the doc soon with more treasures of goodness.
Please if you find any errors (since WH2 BUILD Editor is slightly different form other editors) please point them out to me if you can, thank you.

Well here's the link.
http://dukertcm.com/...en2-manual.html

and build some WH2 maps if you could, we'd love to see them.
BTW look for a new example map soon with all the mentioned effects in it.

[Corvin]

@EG


"Bumping certain walls kills Grondoval instantly bug."
This bug might be the result of the player being able to fit within a few pixels of space...

I was working out a scale for WH2 and noticed that the player sprite or collision I think its called is too narrow, meaning the player actually has very little width.


Duke3D player is 11 Blocks on Grid6 in 2D Mode in the editor. In WH2 the player can fit in 9 Blocks before killing him.
So that makes him 8 blocks wide (32 pixels). But I would imagine that the WH player would be larger than that.

Heres a map that gets thinner and thinner: [attachment=8841:HEIGHTW.zip]

What do you think?

[Corvin]

Quote

Haven't entirely worked these out...
* sector lotags from 1800 to 1899 is a moving floor that can be triggered multiple times by a floor plate. It first moves up, then down, but when it moves downwards it seems never to stop unless it's triggered to move up again, so I guess this might be a broken function or I'm not setting it up correctly. The different tag values in this range seem only to affect how long the stone grinding sound plays.

I built a sprite Lift elevator with tags 1800 1810 and 1820. Just like in WH1 Level1. I haven't completed it 100% but its hard coded to work with the spacebar. Once the lift goes down to the floor it automatically stops, when it goes up it returns to where it originally was and stops. It uses the echoing chain link like sound effect.

Can't say I totally understand it, I don't even know how to explain it. I look into it more....

[ETTiNGRiNDER]

 Corvin, on 20 December 2014 - 02:20 PM, said:

@EG


"Bumping certain walls kills Grondoval instantly bug."
This bug might be the result of the player being able to fit within a few pixels of space...

<snip>

What do you think?

I'm not really sure enough on the innards of BUILD to comment much on it, just that as I understand it, passing outside the boundaries of a level is fatal in BUILD, as opposed to just wandering around in void space like happens in the Doom engine. A narrower player width being more likely to glitch through a wall seems plausible, at least.

Also good work on figuring out the sprite elevator, I've been meaning to look into that but I agree it seems a bit complicated. It works in WH2 also?

EDIT: Could something similar be allowing monsters to pass into a wall (and thus be destroyed) as well? If it has to do with width, and skeletons are narrower than other monsters, it would explain why they do it more often.