[ck3D]

EDIT 2014/10/27 - updated file, this is the final version of the map. fixed some of the ammo / monster ratio, added effects and ambient sounds, fixed bugs

Link to CGS review by Forge
Link to MSDN review by MSandt

Video playthrough by MetHy :


A city at night with mostly vertical action.

The player is supplied with a jetpack and a credit of 50 refills near the beginning of the map.

Use that gift in order to explore the buildings everywhere in the city, and find 8 switches to unlock your way to the exit.

You will also have to find 2 keycards (both yellow).

There is no set order to unlock anything, as a result the map is very unlinear.

Also the entire map has been given palette #7 for a 'black and white' effect. Fellow mapper Taivo Maripuu originally came up with this idea a while back, in an old multiplayer map of his called 'Seven'. I always loved the look of it ; now I made it mine and pushed it even further (this map is single player and like 20 times bigger).

One last thing to be noted about this map is that its designing process was 100% different from everything I had made before. Instead of designing every single room and area one by one, only to then improvise the next one 'on the go', this time I chose to draw the entire outline of the map at once (as the very first thing I did to it), which resulted in a huge empty area that I then had to fill up with textures and details in order to make it look like something. A process that took me over a year (on and off - I don't get to play games and make levels that often). Having that huge area to work on as a basic canvas made it a lot easier for me to implement the vertical action, and design an interconnected layout.

I wish you a pleasant experience.

Security cameras and hints are thrown everywhere in the map in case you get stuck. If you are missing a key, look for writings on the walls near their respective locks.

Attached File(s)

•  siebenpolis.rar (82.57K)
  Number of downloads: 352

[Kyanos]

As a fellow fan of Seven, and your other maps, I'm looking forward to playing this. Just downloaded it.

[MetHy]

Really cool map, took me almost 45mins and found all secrets. I enjoyed the scale and the freedom, however I got lost at the end and it took me almost 15mins to find the last button (went through every corner of the map and switched to polymost mode in order to find the last apartment i had missed), though that one wasn't particularly more hidden than the other ones (3rd viewscreen iirc) but I guess it's the kind of things that are bound to happen and are part of this kind of huge 'look for yourself' maps.

I enjoyed the look of the map a lot, it does a lot and works really well with not actually so much detailing thanks to the full pal7 look and shading. The destroyed building with the light coming out of holes in the ceilings was probably the best part both gameplay wise and in terms of look.

Overall though I have to say that gameplay could probably have been better. However I know it's really hard to make Duke's gameplay work with this kind of really huge openness, and it's also very very hard to make great gameplay with full unlinear maps since you don't control where the player goes and when. Overall it's really good for what it is, this little complain probably goes hand in hand with this kind of maps (there are pros like the openness and the unlinearility and cons like less control on the player by the mapper therefore gameplay which can't be as tight as it could be)

A couple of nice surprises (don't read if you haven't played).

Spoiler

Really nice surprise with the newbeast. At first I thought it was invisible and I was even wondering if it was some kind of glitch
Sorry but I think there is definitly not enough ammo for the end boss, and I found every secret

[ck3D]

Thanks for the feedback. I am in a rush right now, barely have the time to post the following : i will post an updated version of the map tomorrow featuring a few last minute effects i forgot to throw in, namely earthquakes and ambient sounds. I might use the opportunity to do some minor gameplay fixes as well if enough of you report reoccuring problems. Thanks for playing

[MetHy]

Yeah I was thinking it could use a few more ambiant sounds

Spoiler

please add more ammo at the end, the problem is that it might give a hint.... maybe just near the door after it's opened?

[ck3D]

yeah, i will address that issue for sure...

Spoiler

did you find the extra ammo and items in the last room you can access from the hole in the wall that the final beast blows up though... it has either or a few battlelords inside depending on what skill level you are playing... but it contains some stuff... what skill level did you use yourself by the way ? might be useful to know so that i can determine whether or not i need to make the new items mode-specific

[MetHy]

Spoiler

Yeah I found those but it really wasn't much and definitly not enough for both BLords and the Boss; unless I missed some but I don't think so. I could have killed the 2 BLords but would have been out of ammo for the boss which I had barely started to hit, so I decided to focus on the boss instead but had not enough ammo for him anyway. Played on SkilL3

Edit : besides it's really hard to get those items in the destroyed wall without getting killed

[LeoD]

Can't play right now. Too many releases recently, and I'll keep the best for last.

[Blue Lightning]

I didn't see how the map was "mostly vertical"?
I'm sorry, but not for me. I hated the color. That alone DQ'd it, for me.

[ck3D]

Blue Lightning, on 26 October 2014 - 11:25 AM, said:

I didn't see how the map was "mostly vertical"?
I'm sorry, but not for me. I hated the color. That alone DQ'd it, for me.

i don't know how far you managed to make it into the map, seeing as due to your personal tastes, the design style obviously threw you off. but in order to complete it, you have to explore several buildings which can only be entered through windows, and several other locations such as a partially destroyed three-story building, rooftops and balconies ; also a lot of the firefights involve airborne monsters and / or the option to fly over them (ie. in order to get out of ambushes in dead-end streets), a lot of the items are hidden on high ledges too. basically the map makes the biggest use possible of the jetpack and, as a result, plays on the y axis just as much as the x axis (whereas the average city map is mostly pedestrian). also the player is provided with 50+ jetpack 'refills' throughout the map in order to maximize their chance of using said inventory item.

updated version of the map will be up in the upcoming hours.

[ck3D]

the original post has now been updated with the final version of the map. sorry to the 36 folks who had downloaded the map already. please get it again now seeing as numerous bugs have been fixed and more effects implemented !

update revision :

- fixed that one newbeast glitch (sorry MetHy, that actually was a glitch, and quite an unfair one at that)
- implemented ambient sounds
- implemented earthquakes
- fine-tuned the ammo / monster ratio in all difficulty modes

everything should be just fine now.

enjoy !

[Sanek]

Played it, with the old version.

Well, generally I lke it, but I think it's too tough at times, and is there only 1 jetpack? I don't see anything original here, except for one type of color across the map, but it's good, ck3d-style map that should not be missed!

[MetHy]

ck3D, on 27 October 2014 - 07:12 AM, said:

- fixed that one newbeast glitch (sorry MetHy, that actually was a glitch, and quite an unfair one at that)

Well damn, I enjoyed it a lot. I might actually use it if I ever finish that 'survival horror' type map I've been willing to make since 2004. I'm even thinking of ways to make it even better (read: worse).

[ck3D]

Yeah it was an interesting effect for sure. Battling that thing was tougher than a miniboss fight, to me... I achieved it by having a newbeastjump actor respawn instead of a basic newbeast, by the way. For some reason it would spawn under the form of a very tiny enemy with the strength of a normal one.

Sanek : the map has 56 jetpacks. Also the newer version is a tad easier

[MetHy]

I knew you could give Jump newbeasts any size you want (and I think another enemy type as well?), but I didn't know it was possible with respawns. IIRC it was also flat and one sided.

[Blue Lightning]

Hey ck, no offense of course, I'm just telling it like it is for my taste. Hell, some of your city maps are among my favorites (like map 2, 8 and 9 of Metro Mayhem). The Vanilla type maps are what I play, and always in 8 bit mode. The yellow threw me I guess.

[ck3D]

no offense taken at all sir, no worries. i am well aware that experimenting with such design choices that are an obvious departure from what we are all used to seeing in duke maps is a risk, some people are going to love it, some people are going to hate it, it is totally fine either way. at least it is there as what it is for the taking, and those who happen to dislike this particular map this time might have the opposite impression with the next one (provided that i ever find the time to make a next one) ! thank you for giving this a try, anyway.

MetHy : what's even weirder about that glitch is that the respawn sprite i used in order to (mistakenly) spawn that newbeast(jump) was a very normal one. default-sized and neither wall-aligned or one-sided. the spawned actor turned out to have all those characteristics, though. the resulting fight was interesting (that thing was so quick and hard to hit, i had to resort to using pipebombs and it would still dodge half of them), but i wouldn't count on using it as a legit enemy in a map anytime soon (even though it's really cool), because it essentially relies on a game bug and, as such, is bound to eventually get fixed at some point in time in eduke32. i wouldn't want to release a map relying on that 'effect', only to have it 'broken' one day after a certain eduke32 update.

also, it is worth noting that as an attempt to make the map look and feel even more vertical / airborne action-oriented, during the revision of the map i tried to implement recon patrol vehicles in the map (one for each skill level starting from #2), they looked and worked really well especially due to the scenery and scale of the environment, and added a lot to the immersion, but i eventually had to remove them for cosmetic reasons - RPV's don't seem to be pal-sensitive for some reason (something i was never aware of before). thus they would either stay pal #0 and contrast with the rest of the look of the map way too much, or (when i tried to manually give them pal #7 in mapster) they just wouldn't show up (just like some switches don't show up in SP when they are given a palette, i guess). a quality i didn't know that enemy had. which is always good to report / know.

[MetHy]

ck3D, on 28 October 2014 - 12:51 AM, said:

MetHy : what's even weirder about that glitch is that the respawn sprite i used in order to (mistakenly) spawn that newbeast(jump) was a very normal one. default-sized and neither wall-aligned or one-sided. the spawned actor turned out to have all those characteristics, though. the resulting fight was interesting (that thing was so quick and hard to hit, i had to resort to using pipebombs and it would still dodge half of them), but i wouldn't count on using it as a legit enemy in a map anytime soon (even though it's really cool), because it essentially relies on a game bug and, as such, is bound to eventually get fixed at some point in time in eduke32. i wouldn't want to release a map relying on that 'effect', only to have it 'broken' one day after a certain eduke32 update.

I don't know about the respawn sprite, but as far as small sized Jump-Newbeast sprites are concerned, it's something that has always been like this but that not many people have really used; but which probably will always be use-able. Honestly, it's the kind of glitches that I hope EDuke32 never fixes (because it's not a real problem and can only be used in cool ways)

[Micky C]

I always wondered how people managed to pull off different sizes for that enemy. Don't worry eduke wouldn't fix anything that's present in version 1.5, especially if it's been used in maps like this one has, as well as the underwater floor-alligned blocking sprite glitch.

[MetHy]

I've just replayed the map, and honestly all of its potential is only revealed if you do several playthroughs.
You could do maybe 50 playthroughs and still go through the map in a different order everytime (unless I suck at maths), it's really a map meant for replays and I'll probably play it again.

The map is pretty challenging and you have to be careful with health, but I enjoyed that. Items placement is pretty good too, if you want the powerful stuff early on you have to venture through the toughest parts of the map first, it's up to you to decide when you have the guts to do that.
Edit: I also think you did a good job with pistol ammo ratio. There is enough so you can clear a small path from far away when needed, but considering the amount of enemies, there isn't really a lot of ammo so the player HAS to get closer and can't do it all the easy way sniping with the pistol. At some point, when Liztroops spawn pistol ammo it becomes a godsend. Of course I guess this depends on a lot on where you go first, and a certain path would probably give you more pistol ammo early on than others, but overall and considering the 2 playthroughs I did (+ the 2-3times i died and had to restart), I thought this was well done.
I also had the same feeling of 'I have to get closer' due to the Pigtanks, how they can be a threat even from far away, and the natural wish to push the buttons on their back, and the fact that the strongest weapon you're provided with at the start are pipebombs, which can be very powerful but require you to get closer. So overall I kind of take back what I said earlier and the gameplay is well done for such an open map (I've played open maps that were boring pistol sniping 90% of the time), it's just that the real potential of the map is only revealed after a first playthrough.

I also appreciated the 'black&white' look a lot more this time (last time the sun was bothering the view on my screen) and the map has really cool shading. It really feels like Duke Nukem 3D Game Boy edition.

I think the coolest thing about the map is seeing the Pigtanks and BLords shots goa long way through the map, it's really cool.

Spoiler

BTW this time I had enough ammo for everything, but at the end I had to lure the boss out down the street so I could kill the BLords inside the building and get the supplies. If you go in right away with the BLords on one side and the Overlord on the other, you're dead meat sandwich style

[ck3D]

thanks for the detailed feedback. it is so cool to me to see that some players are actually taking the time to explore the map in depth, going as far as trying it out multiple times because there are so many ways to go through it and so many different nice little things to unwind. i think that is partially what made the maps from the original E1 so remarkably popular, too - most people just played them more, and had different scenarii happen to them every time, eventually the players would become very familar to them as mini-adventures to the point where the levels eventually started to have a life of their own, instead of being just there as random levels, they became some of the fan's favorites and i am sure that if you asked anyone who used to play duke 3D back in the day, what their recollection of the game is as of now, they would reply hollywood holocaust and red light district, whose layouts and enemy patterns have been burnt into every duker's brain forever due to how many times they have been ventured through. i kind of wish people (myself included) actually had the time to play quality user maps more, so that they would become such classics as well, even nearing 2015. coming to think of it, the most memorable user maps to have ever been made for duke also happen to be the ones with the most replay value (to me at least). the roch maps, the red maps, the first bobsp maps, alejandro's maps. a lot of people credit them for technical innovations but i think they really only became classics not just on the sole basis of those, but because of how often they would draw people back into playing them over and over again, therefore creating a proximity.

also, 'duke nukem 3d game boy edition' is to me quite possibly the best way you could have described the feel i tried to convey in this map, without realizing it myself, that alone makes me happy to have released it, despite the mixed reactions it seems to be getting so far, it means that some people can actually 'get' it and thus i have reached my goal.

MetHy, on 28 October 2014 - 02:05 AM, said:

Spoiler

BTW this time I had enough ammo for everything, but at the end I had to lure the boss out down the street so I could kill the BLords inside the building and get the supplies. If you go in right away with the BLords on one side and the Overlord on the other, you're dead meat sandwich style

Spoiler

luring the boss out of the last section of the map and back down the street is how i really intended the fight to be performed in the first place. that last section of the rooftop is narrower and crammed with stuff, and the boss respawns behind your back ; it is a conscious choice and i was hoping that it would encourage the player to use their jetpack once last time, to fly above the boss' head and its minions, only to then carry the fight back onto the main street. the revision of the map comes with some respawning items (rpg and dev ammo) that also spawn nowhere but on the streets themselves (on the cars, ledges and balconies), only to encourage that move even further. i also added like 3 or 4 shotgun shell packs throughout the map (some of which are skill setting-specific) which might explain why you had an easier time this time around

also, those battlelords inside the building aren't supposed to be killed either, you can take them down if you are a perfectionnist or just avoid them and grab the shit scattered in every corner... it's like an optional section of the map you can choose to either go through or skip, depending on how adventurous and how full on items you are

[Sixty Four]

Finally got to play this one, I enjoyed the atmosphere right away from the get go took a screen shot of the starting area hahah.

[Blue Lightning]

Here's the thing: I tried it again one more time. The thing about ck, he makes big city maps, and he makes them challenging as fuck. I had some fun playing it again. I still cannot handle the yellow, it gives the map a "waste dump" kind of look. But at least I had some fun. ck3D knows how to make a map fun, I gotta give him that.

For what it's worth, I would encourage ck to keep making maps!

[Mike Norvak]

Just got some free time in weeks tonight, gonna play it right now!!!!

[ck3D]

thanks for all the feedback guys. much appreciated. thank you for keeping the community alive and for inspiring mappers to keep working and releasing more stuff by posting your reactions !

and thank you again for giving this level a try.

added links to the reviews for this map on CGS and MSDN in the original post.

[Fox]

ck3D, on 27 October 2014 - 10:56 AM, said:

Yeah it was an interesting effect for sure. Battling that thing was tougher than a miniboss fight, to me... I achieved it by having a newbeastjump actor respawn instead of a basic newbeast, by the way. For some reason it would spawn under the form of a very tiny enemy with the strength of a normal one.

That's a bug from the game. It's quite a surprise most people don't know you can't spawn NEWBEASTSTAYPUT or NEWBEASTJUMP sprites.

The bug occurs because, unlike most of the enemies, the Protector Drone sprite x-yrepeat is not hard-coded, and is written in the CON instead. Due to a logical error it's not applied to the stayput or jumping forms.

[ck3D]

thanks for the clarification, that is always good to know. when i found out about that bug (the hard way), battling that thing was tougher than a miniboss fight to me (a better wording would be that it was as tough as a proper miniboss fight should be in a video game in my opinion - i always though miniboss and boss fights in duke were too easy and unchallenging). i like MetHy's idea of putting that bug to good use and implementing those messed-up newbeasts as proper enemies in duke maps in appropriate settings. will probably resort to it myself one of those days... come to think of it, the bug makes it pretty much a whole new, different enemy

[MetHy]

Here is a video playthrough of Siebenpolis:


CGS difficulty, all secrets found, took 30mins. Still had plenty of ammo left at the end, but this took me several tries to make a good video so I got to know the map by heart, found a good path to optimize weapon, and I was careful with ammo.

I take back what I say about the room in flames (destroyed building) with the light coming out of the ceiling. It does look great, but it doesn't play very well. Both Commander rockets and drones go through sprites (and Commanders themselves, too), which when you're in a room entirely made of sprites, is VERY unfair. I got bullshit hits dues to this in almost each replay I did to make this video... Check at around time 19:30 in the video.

But anyway, I've already said this but, this is really a map that shines for its replayability, it's really made to be played several times and you're missing on what makes the map good if you only play it once imo.

[ck3D]

thanks for the video ! i love seeing how other people play my maps. you did a great job at it too, also you made me realize that i actually implemented a lot more monsters than i thought i had myself (250+ on CGS is quite a frag fest).

'how many times do you usually play the same user map' would make for an interesting poll / thread. i actually wonder quite often like, how often do players play their favorite maps again, i know there has been a lot of releases over the past years that i have really liked and genuinely enjoyed playing, yet haven't touched more than once as though to leave the feeling intact. i wonder if a lot of people do the same (play maps just once until they can say they have completed it then never really go back to it) and if, consequently, mappers are starting to subconsciously take that in consideration during the process of making their maps (like, does it influence how good of a first impression they want their map to make even if that could sometimes be at the expense of actual consistency ? and whatnot)

i agree that the battle in the destroyed building might be a little unfair. i will keep that in mind for the next map i make (if ever any) with multiple sprite-based floors and the like. also, for some reason it never really occured to me that by opting to use the vents in order to go from that one apartment building to the other apartment with the switch in the bathroom, one would actually trigger both sets of respawns at once and have twice as many monsters to kill as they come back outside and onto the main street / hub. i think it's cool, though - it gives a downside to going through things 'the easy way', and i also like that there are so many back alleys that one might or might not forget to 'clean up' before they end up retreating there for cover, generally i am pretty happy with the scale of the map and its unlinearity combined with the monster / respawn placement, this type of stuff can be hard to successfully juggle with in such open maps.

i included your video in my original post (oddly enough, the thumbnail looks nothing like how the map really looks though, kind of intriguing). thanks again for playing.

[LeoD]

Finially, finally, I've completed this one as well. Another high quality MRCK release, just the way I like it. I usually do not fly around very much (afraid to fall down?), so I cleaned out the streets first. Maybe that's harder than the way you intended. But, on the other hand, gives a reason to replay in the near future.
Keep on mapping, man!