[MetHy]

What are some effects or things (items, situations etc) that you think are under-used in DN3D usermaps and that you'd like to see more?

Some that I thought of :
- functioning lightswitches
- the jetpack
- giving a use to items like nightvision goggles, steroids, protective boots; even if it's just a simple use. Would be nice to see the holoduke more often too since it CAN be useful in some SP situations.
- the pigtank. You see them, but not so often, probably because mappers think they are useless due to the button on their back; but it all depends how you use them, you just have to put them in places where the button can't be reached yet; like behind a couple blocked walls (fences, invisible walls etc); or far away in the distance so you have to avoid the shots while making your way closer.
- X-axis SOS : several rooms at the same physical space. It's something unique to the Build engine yet how many maps make use of it? 0,01% ?
- moving sectors / walls
- mirrors in places other than boring bathrooms

[Micky C]

The jetpack is nice but it's a lot harder with modern Duke level design to include it, and have it be useful than it was in the original maps. Containing the player without making it seem artificial becomes increasingly difficult with map complexity.

Overall I'd like to see more vertical level design in Duke, especially in city-based maps. Makes things a lot more interesting than relatively flat layouts.

[MetHy]

Yeah I know, that's the thing. Quite a lot of those under-used things are under-used BECAUSE you have to build the whole level according to them (like the jetpack). MRCK's map Meatball Sub Makin' had a really nice use of the jetpack, you got it at the end, after going around the entire level you could use to navigate back to the start, for the few last fights and find a few more places to go, and get a glimpse of the overall design in the air. His map AMC Please also used it at the end too, as a progression-mean : you had to use it to reach the rooftop on which the ending was. That kind of things gives cool use of the jetpack, though restricted to the end of the maps in those case not to ruin the entire maps flow.

Also, viewscreens. Viewscreens are often used to display text, or to show the player where to go/what a switch did ; but its original use, showing the levels and enemy placement in rooms you haven't been yet, is nice and not used so often, either.

[NNC]

X-axis SOS. It had been used in original maps quite a lot, but people totally forgot to use them since then. As good as today's levels are, they are all built for 3D eyecandy, while the 2D complexity is missing. That's why the original Duke maps are timeless, and look good even by 2014 standards.

[Micky C]

That's different to saying that X-axis SOS is what made the maps so good. Besides, it wasn't used that much in the original game.

IMO it's simply the layouts themselves that make them memorable.
The right amount of non-linearity and scripted events.
The perfect balance between abstract and realistic/relatable.
Enemies tied into the progression to make it seem like they were smarter and attempted to actually hinder you.

In fact that's something that's missing from user maps: In the original game there were several instances where enemies were made out as though they were pressing switches to close doors and stuff to get in your way. Usually they're just arbitrarily placed around the levels, but they need to be tied into the progression/story more.

[Gambini]

I think lightswitches are of very little use because you are forced to use flat shading on rooms where it´s applied. If the effect would be more flexible, I for one would have used it a lot more. Things like a bedroom with the street lights breaking through the window and then when the lights are on, you are still able to use 2x4 shading and large objects like closets still cast shadows. But instead you´re stuck with dull and flat lighting, not good for these days of more visually oriented maps. I think the same goes for cyclers and most ligthing effects, and in a minor degree to all sector moving effects. Combining those difficult to flex effects with today´s relatively complex maps is tiresome and in many cases incompatible, which with the time has led to more static maps.

[Cage]

Yeah, to maintain the corner/edge shading with switchable lights you'd have to create an extra thin sector for the darker walls for example. Same with all the other light effects

[Forge]

Gambini, on 12 July 2014 - 07:37 AM, said:

I think lightswitches are of very little use because you are forced to use flat shading on rooms where it´s applied.

this^

especially in rooms with a lot of sector work and "fading wall" shading.

e.g. like Gambini mentioned - a dark bedroom with several dressers, a bed, other various furniture, and the initial lighting coming through some windows.

you either have to have the shading flat initially or flat via SE when the lights turn on. you can't have it both ways without throwing things off and making areas look bad (i.e. dark/light spots on the walls, floors, and ceiling that don't match the surrounding sectors)

it can be done, but it's incredibly tedious and not worth the effort unless gameplay calls for the player to find a lightswitch to turn on in order to see something relevant to progression

[Mark]

I would like to use flickering lights except for the frame of black that is part of the flicker. It makes things too abrupt. If it was coded for a softer flicker like in DukePlus I would use it.

[NNC]

Micky C, on 12 July 2014 - 07:24 AM, said:

That's different to saying that X-axis SOS is what made the maps so good. Besides, it wasn't used that much in the original game.

IMO it's simply the layouts themselves that make them memorable.
The right amount of non-linearity and scripted events.
The perfect balance between abstract and realistic/relatable.
Enemies tied into the progression to make it seem like they were smarter and attempted to actually hinder you.

In fact that's something that's missing from user maps: In the original game there were several instances where enemies were made out as though they were pressing switches to close doors and stuff to get in your way. Usually they're just arbitrarily placed around the levels, but they need to be tied into the progression/story more.

Yep, I wasn't accurate enough. The 2D complexity (including X axis SOS) is one important part that made those maps great. The smart shading and the use light switches are another. The balanced use of weapons and items are another (not your typical shotgun first, chaingun second, RPG before boss etc).

But you're spot on with monster placement. It was used very cleverly. Not just Liztroops first, Pigcops second, Enforcers third, Bosses before the end etc. In fact, most of those maps used a specific set of enemies, and didn't mix them too often. For example if you look carefully, out of the 40 retail maps, only 1 (yes, ONE, and that is Raw Meat) use all the 4 basic enemies (Liztroop, Pigcop, Enforcer, Octabrain) in escalated numbers (more than 3 from each in Let's Rock skill). In most user maps, they are used frequently in big numbers, which often give the actual map a pedestrian, generic feel, even if it looks fantastic otherwise, and has neat effects.

The use of respawn was also very clever in the original levels. They're not just used in places with a keycard or a button, that opens a door somewhere else. They spiced up the gameplay a lot with an unique, and sometimes surprising use. Like the pigcop that spawned behind along with a trapdoor sound in the start of Death Row. Or the simple RPG ammo room that spawned a Drone and an Enforcer in the start of Warp Factor. Or the Enforcer that jumps at you at the start of Raw Meat, and two more as you goes inside. Or the two Newbeasts that spawn in the air to fall in front of you in Derelict. Or the 3 Pigcops that explosively spawned in front of you in RLD. And so on. These minor things are quite rare these days. There are some nice touches here and there in usermaps. For example I liked when the Enforcers spawned at the start of Construction Destruction (Duke Hard level 3) in the window cleaner platform. Or Red 3 have an excellent enemy placement overall including Commanders in unreachable area, or the last couple of levels of LRWB episode 2 had a great use of them, with a great mix of Drones/Newbeasts/Turrets/Slimers. But it could be more...

Also, am I the only one who thinks the Sentry Drones are underused? Just look at E2 and even E3, and compare that to user levels. I think the original mappers snubbed them in E4, because back then the roaming sound often crashed the game, not because these things sucked.

[Mike Norvak]

Well on my WGR2 episode I would really love to implement these kind of gameplay aspects that make DukeNukem3D so great. So predictable respawns should be one thing that I need to avoid.

[Danukem]

From a gameplay standpoint, I think that moving sectors are very under-used. There's a lot of stuff, like using the wave effect in a gameplay area, that is not done. Imagine the wave effect used (not water tagged) where you have to time your jump at the crest of the wave to reach an area. I remember someone (can't remember the name atm) made a map with an alien themed boss area with a wave motion floor, but it's the only example I can think of. Then there are lots of possibilities with jumping and moving platforms, crushing ceilings, etc.

The main pitfall is making the jumping too difficult. I would give the player a lot of room for error.

[duke64nukem]

Secret places! I play a lot of maps and yeah there are quite a bit that do have there share of secrets. But those secret areas add to game experience I especially like big secrets like a full hidden room that has it's share of details. When a player finds it on his own it really is quite fun plus secret areas tend to be rewarding for player

[The Commander]

Cameras...

[Robman]

So ah, what's x-axis SOS... by definition it makes no sense to me.

[MetHy]

Several rooms at the same physical space. Like the secret map in DN3D's episode 2 that's a 720° circle, or the secret map in ep3 that has 4 square rooms at the same place.
Also Geoffrey's dm map "Dm_ducts" uses it a lot.

BTW I thought this kind of stuff was only possible in Build but I just learnt it's also possible in some other games like Marathon.

[duke64nukem]

Secret levels! Well in addition to my comment about secrets and that^^ I think I don't see secret level very much in user maps that or i just can't find them. I now see it as a way to release a map that you made that didn't turn out so hot

[Mr.Torture]

You know what grinds my gears?

Unused doors. This is over-used.

There's plenty maps where you find tons of decoration doors, and of course, you'll try them. And Duke is always grunting, no matter is wall or a decoration door.

I would like to see more people using external sound effects, there's plenty unused voc files that can be easily added without affecting the game. And there's tons of SFX databases with samples that can be used, in this case, locked doors. A different sound when you tries to open it would be awesome, as well you see in many games. Just a few mins at pond5.com for example and I got many cool samples:

https://www.pond5.co.../lock-door.html
https://www.pond5.co...0/doorlock.html
https://www.pond5.co...1/doorknob.html
https://www.pond5.co...4/doorknob.html
https://www.pond5.co...3/doorknob.html
https://www.pond5.co...-s011fo226.html
https://www.pond5.co...-s011fo238.html

Or even a "half life locked door" sound : http://fastdlcstrike...ons/button2.wav

People should use these, or less unused doors.

[Micky C]

In my DNF DLC map, I made it so Duke said "damn" or "damnit" when he tried to open a locked door in the bar. Perhaps other people can use that.

[MetHy]

I always liked Blood's way of doing it, as it makes the nuances between doors that require keys, doors that are locked (=that you open with switches or other), and doors that are "stuck" (= can't be opened).

Shadow Warrior does it differently, it has a sprite that says "NO ENTER", it wasn't used for doors in the original game, but in the last map of Wanton Destruction they used it on doors that can't be opened, so you don't even have to press use on the door to know you don't have to bother with it.

[Micky C]

There's always going to be a compromise between making the player feel immersed through implying there's a larger world than is actually shown (though placing "locked" doors to other areas), and making the player waste a bit of time running around pressing use on fake doors.

IMO there are usually a few tells that can help people out. For example, if there are a bunch of doors that are close together and look identical, and one of them doesn't open, then chances are they all don't open. If one of them does, the mapper should put a visual cue to indicate this.

[MetHy]

One can give a sense of larger world without doors. It's just that doors make it look nicer and more "realistic".

[NNC]

I think out of the John Romero (Doom creator) policies there was the one which said you can enter every place you see from outside. And that policy was used in basically all Doom and - as a Doom "clone" - Duke 3D maps. Nowadays there are way too many decorative areas with invisible walls and such. While it gives a more realistic view of the world, I'm pretty sure the engine prefers the oldschool ways, and "3DRealms style" consist the way of entering every location you see in the map. And that's very satisfying if the said visible, but locked place is reachable from a hidden location. Decorative doors are the same. It's more satisfying when you find a way to open a seemingly useless door later on, than just accepting it's useless nature.

AFAIK the only original level which used decorative doors was Duke Burger. I remember I was really confused by them back in those days.

[Carl Winslow]

Utilizing the water sectors to fake space-walking has been used in literally two user-maps. It's not even hard to do, you just make sure the player can walk into the sector rather than spawn in it or go in via water. By doing this the palette won't change to the blue tint, and by proxy it seems natural. sure, you still have to give the player scuba gear, but it's still a cool thing to do! With the amount of space maps there are, it's baffling how little actual space exploration there is.

On the topic of doors though, the Moonbase Alpha and Moonbase Beta maps are both very good about making sure all areas you can explore are worth your time and that every door can be opened.

[Merlijn]

Nancsi, on 22 August 2014 - 06:35 AM, said:

I think out of the John Romero (Doom creator) policies there was the one which said you can enter every place you see from outside. And that policy was used in basically all Doom and - as a Doom "clone" - Duke 3D maps. Nowadays there are way too many decorative areas with invisible walls and such. While it gives a more realistic view of the world, I'm pretty sure the engine prefers the oldschool ways, and "3DRealms style" consist the way of entering every location you see in the map.

I think it's a fine line: you don't want to have too many unreachable locations, because that would suggest the map is very open and big while it really isn't. I've played several maps where the huge amount of invisible barriers were really disappointing, so many locations that looked inviting turned out to be unreachable. On the other hand, I wouldn't want go back to 3DR-styled grey concrete walls either. I prefer to add at least some hint of a larger world outside of the player area, it makes a level so much more immersive when used properly.

As for the original question:
- viewscreens showing some previews of what lies ahead. It's still used, but not very much. I thought this was always a nice touch in the original maps.
- cool secret areas. The roch maps always had great secret areas that were worth finding, not many mappers seem to bother with adding those anymore. (and I don't mean a poster that hides a small room with steroids, I mean proper, well thought out locations).

As for the jetpack: I'm always reluctant to use those, since they can so easily break progression. Especially in my levels, since Y-axis progression always plays a huge part in those. And I think having to climb your way up is more interesting then simply using a jetpack.

[zykov eddy]

In my opinion, this is the №1 thing underused in maps

[Forge]

zykov eddy, on 23 August 2014 - 05:29 PM, said:

In my opinion, this is the №1 thing underused in maps

i can find you several hundred pre-1999 maps that over-use this tile & that's why there's a stigma against it

[Mark]

The HRP version looks good and I'm using it in a map now.

[Micky C]

Shooters are pretty underused in maps.

Also, it would be nice to have more classic style, dark, moody space station maps.

Seems that 95% of the maps released these days are city maps.

[Mark]

Hmm. Dark, moody space station. Now where have I seen one before.

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