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Total 3D level editing idea

User is offline   Darkhog 

#1

While Mapster/original editor is very capable, we still need to make "proper", full 3d editor. But I have idea how to make it easier.

My idea is on using Blender and writing exporter plugin to Duke's map format. Each blender mesh object would be treated as sector and exporter would check for any discrepancies (like trying to do non-vertical walls) and try to fix those (in case of above example create sectors with sloped floor/ceiling).

Pros:
- You won't need to write mesh manipulation logic (extruding, etc.)
- Blender exporters are fairly easy to code
- Similar stuff was done before (inkscape is used to create XMoto levels)
Cons:
- Something about game objects (powerups, etc.) will need to be done, though it is possible to add special object type to blender with proper metadata.
- You will need to code it in Python (yuck!)
0

User is offline   Hendricks266 

  • Weaponized Autism

  #2

Keep us updated on your progress with making it!
6

User is offline   The Commander 

  • I used to be a Brown Fuzzy Fruit, but I've changed bro...

#3

View PostJimmy, on 14 October 2013 - 06:16 PM, said:

Wow, this thread sucks.

2

User is offline   Inspector Lagomorf 

  • Glory To Motherland!

#4

That's a great idea. Have you started working on it yet? Got any screenshots? Where's the development log? When is there going to be an alpha release? Are you still working on this? Is it going to support 3DS format? Is it going to run in Linux? Why aren't you working on this? Are you still there? What's the release date?

This post has been edited by Comrade Major: 02 July 2014 - 06:55 AM

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User is offline   Darkhog 

#5

View PostHendricks266, on 02 July 2014 - 06:24 AM, said:

Keep us updated on your progress with making it!

First of all I have great hatred for python. That language simply sucks. Secondly, I don't know Duke's map format. Thirdly, there are more experienced programmers than me here who are better suited for this job (like e.g., IDK, mapster's creator).
-2

User is offline   Inspector Lagomorf 

  • Glory To Motherland!

#6

View PostDarkhog, on 02 July 2014 - 06:56 AM, said:

Thirdly, there are more experienced programmers than me here who are better suited for this job (like e.g., IDK, mapster's creator).


Quote

we still need to make "proper", full 3d editor.


The art of delegation.
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User is offline   Hendricks266 

  • Weaponized Autism

  #7

View PostDarkhog, on 02 July 2014 - 06:19 AM, said:

I have idea

Oh boy. Another idea thread.

View PostDarkhog, on 02 July 2014 - 06:19 AM, said:

we need

"we"? "need"?

View PostDarkhog, on 02 July 2014 - 06:19 AM, said:

"proper"

>Implying tools for modern engines are automatically better suited for a retro engine than the ones created by original author.

It could be an interesting exercise to convert 3D geometry to maps, but the geometry is all you could do. Ken already wrote the reverse. Texturing and shading would be literally impossible.
1

User is offline   The Commander 

  • I used to be a Brown Fuzzy Fruit, but I've changed bro...

#8

View PostDarkhog, on 02 July 2014 - 06:56 AM, said:

First of all I have great hatred for python. That language simply sucks. Secondly, I don't know Duke's map format. Thirdly, there are more experienced programmers than me here who are better suited for this job (like e.g., IDK, mapster's creator).

Protip, don't make IDEA threads unless you have something to actually contribute to it, e.g. You have already started work on it.

Coming here and making silly threads with an idea and then asking OTHERS to do all the work is going to get you shat on straight away as you can already tell.

Also, don't you think if the editor could have been modernised to use a editor such as blender etc. it would have been done already?

This post has been edited by The Angry Kiwi: 02 July 2014 - 07:55 AM

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User is offline   Mark 

  • Honored Donor

#9

Instead of a full map editor I would be thrilled enough just to have the ability to create the floor mesh in a program and have that converted to the floor of the map.
0

User is offline   Photonic 

#10

View PostDarkhog, on 02 July 2014 - 06:19 AM, said:

While Mapster/original editor is very capable, we still need to make "proper", full 3d editor. But I have idea how to make it easier.My idea is on using Blender and writing exporter plugin to Duke's map format. Each blender mesh object would be treated as sector and exporter would check for any discrepancies (like trying to do non-vertical walls) and try to fix those (in case of above example create sectors with sloped floor/ceiling).Pros:- You won't need to write mesh manipulation logic (extruding, etc.)- Blender exporters are fairly easy to code- Similar stuff was done before (inkscape is used to create XMoto levels)Cons:- Something about game objects (powerups, etc.) will need to be done, though it is possible to add special object type to blender with proper metadata.- You will need to code it in Python (yuck!)



View PostDarkhog, on 02 July 2014 - 06:56 AM, said:

First of all I have great hatred for python. That language simply sucks. Secondly, I don't know Duke's map format. Thirdly, there are more experienced programmers than me here who are better suited for this job (like e.g., IDK, mapster's creator).

I know python, and the map format, and blender. This will never ever happen. NEVER. IT IS NOT GONNA HAPPEN. EVER.
Spoiler

1

User is offline   Mark 

  • Honored Donor

#11

It might be a year or two ago that someone was messing around with a program to create terrain and was able to export it to our map format with limited success. Who was that and what became of that quest?

This post has been edited by Mark.: 02 July 2014 - 04:11 PM

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User is online   Micky C 

  • Honored Donor

#12

Would there really be any real advantages to making maps in a modelling program?

Considering Darkhog only recently became aware of mapster32, I'm guessing he's not fully aware of the advantages it has over the original Build. Like Mark said the only plausible advantage is Terrain, but due to the nature of the engine (slopes perpendicular to first walls), that would probably be pretty limited as well, or otherwise extremely wall-intensive.

IIRC LEBuild has a prototype random terrain generator, but it was fairly useless, simply adding random noise to a flat surface (and taking up lots of walls in the process, since the sectors were joined with separate non-adjacent sectors to get their slopes). Far from fancy caves/caverns/hills/valleys that people would have in mind.
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#13

View PostDarkhog, on 02 July 2014 - 06:56 AM, said:

First of all I have great hatred for python. That language simply sucks. Secondly, I don't know Duke's map format. Thirdly, there are more experienced programmers than me here who are better suited for this job (like e.g., IDK, mapster's creator).


And you're the boss who give them orders what to do?
0

#14

I think what the OP truly wants here is to implement Duke3D graphics, sounds and gameplay in a different, proper 3D engine.
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User is online   Micky C 

  • Honored Donor

#15

I don't think so, since he mentioned the export taking into account the limitations of a 2.5D map. The impression I got was that he wants an alternative mapping tool.
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User is offline   Inspector Lagomorf 

  • Glory To Motherland!

#16

I never quite understood that. Compared to other modern level editors I've used, Mapster is not that challenging. There's a lot of reading involved for some of the effects, but it's literally like following cookbook recipes, and after a while it becomes second nature.

But as for going "fully 3D", which seems to be what's intended - why? Duke Nukem 3D was never designed for that to begin with.

This post has been edited by Comrade Major: 03 July 2014 - 04:25 AM

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User is offline   Photonic 

#17

Blender isn't really any easier to learn than mapster. And to make a polygon mesh within the limits of our 2.5d engine is just plain nonsense. Auto-correct a sloped wall, lol. I can see a use for it, like exporting quake and unreal bsp maps to this format, but even that isn't truly possible without tons of ror, and even worse hacks on those sloped walls. In short, never gonna happen. Never.
1

User is offline   Inspector Lagomorf 

  • Glory To Motherland!

#18

Collision detection with sprite constructs is glitchy enough as it is. I can't imagine the problems that would be caused with collision detection against polygon meshes.
0

User is offline   Photonic 

#19

View PostMark., on 02 July 2014 - 10:02 AM, said:

Instead of a full map editor I would be thrilled enough just to have the ability to create the floor mesh in a program and have that converted to the floor of the map.

Attached Image: capt0015.png
Even simple simple sector geometry is very hard to conceive in full 3d. For example, how would you model this little room? I bet there are a dozen ways to make this room in 3D, then another dozen ways an exporter could interpret your intentions and fuck it all up. It's stuff like redwalls and points without faces that don't translate easily between 2.5D and 3D. And as Mickey mentioned, slopes need to be aligned with a firstwall, which is tagged in the map format by the way, every sector has a firstwall. It's slopes that just kill the concept.

With this out of the way, maybe we should talk about doing a few things to help lessen the learning curve into mapster. If a few more youtube tutorials popped up I bet they would get a ton of views. People are all over steam asking how to map for Duke. A few find their way here and less actually get mapster installed and look at a map. There are a ton of video tuts for every 3D program, good stuff too with keystrokes showing up, we need some stuff like that to help ease newcomers into the fun of Duke mapping.
3

#20

The only thing that should worth a try IMHO is to simplify the Mapster in some areas. Some sprites need special angles, others need special palette, and then others need special lo-tag or hi-tag or shading or whatever, and that should be a bit easier. But I'm not sure it's possible to update it without a hell of a work.
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User is offline   blizzart 

#21

View PostDrek, on 03 July 2014 - 06:30 AM, said:

Attachment capt0015.png
Even simple simple sector geometry is very hard to conceive in full 3d. For example, how would you model this little room? I bet there are a dozen ways to make this room in 3D, then another dozen ways an exporter could interpret your intentions and fuck it all up. It's stuff like redwalls and points without faces that don't translate easily between 2.5D and 3D. And as Mickey mentioned, slopes need to be aligned with a firstwall, which is tagged in the map format by the way, every sector has a firstwall. It's slopes that just kill the concept.

With this out of the way, maybe we should talk about doing a few things to help lessen the learning curve into mapster. If a few more youtube tutorials popped up I bet they would get a ton of views. People are all over steam asking how to map for Duke. A few find their way here and less actually get mapster installed and look at a map. There are a ton of video tuts for every 3D program, good stuff too with keystrokes showing up, we need some stuff like that to help ease newcomers into the fun of Duke mapping.


I always wanted to make some tutorials for Mapster32 on YT, but I never got FRAPS to record the 2D-mode.
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User is offline   Photonic 

#22

View PostNancsi, on 03 July 2014 - 09:34 AM, said:

The only thing that should worth a try IMHO is to simplify the Mapster in some areas. Some sprites need special angles, others need special palette, and then others need special lo-tag or hi-tag or shading or whatever, and that should be a bit easier. But I'm not sure it's possible to update it without a hell of a work.


Not as hard as you might think.

Attached Image: capt0001.png
Attached Image: capt0002.png

I completely jacked some of Trooper Dan's m32 code from the ongoing WGR2. He has many special effects in there that aren't documented. Instead how they work pop up like this in mapster. :P
IMO the community could build onto a help.m32 script like this to make the ultimate mapster help file.

code...
Spoiler

1

User is offline   Hendricks266 

  • Weaponized Autism

  #23

View Postblizzart, on 03 July 2014 - 10:39 AM, said:

I always wanted to make some tutorials for Mapster32 on YT, but I never got FRAPS to record the 2D-mode.

It should work now for the same reason the Steam Overlay works: the classic renderer outputs to SDL2's SDL_Renderer.
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User is offline   Darkhog 

#24

View PostComrade Major, on 03 July 2014 - 04:24 AM, said:

I never quite understood that. Compared to other modern level editors I've used, Mapster is not that challenging. There's a lot of reading involved for some of the effects, but it's literally like following cookbook recipes, and after a while it becomes second nature.

But as for going "fully 3D", which seems to be what's intended - why? Duke Nukem 3D was never designed for that to begin with.

You sir, obviously never used Trenchbroom (great Quake1 editor). Try it and get back to me please. And yes, I want alternative level editor. If I'd want to do Duke in modern engine, I'd probably just fire up Unity or Unreal and get to work, not wasting time on these forums. Using Blender would have this advantage that no mesh editing/rendering would need to be written, only code that would interpret meshes as sectors and breaks too complex meshes into multiple sectors, then save as Duke map.

//edit: And there are alternative tools than FRAPS for recording things. Most of the time I use Camtasia for it, but if you want something free, try OBS. While its general use case is for streaming, it has recording option as well. It records either into AVI or OGG Video, not sure.

//edit #2: Found some video tutorials on Mapster, but there's no voiceover and you have to read. He has another list with voiceover, but this version seems to be more complete.

This post has been edited by Darkhog: 03 July 2014 - 01:44 PM

0

User is offline   Inspector Lagomorf 

  • Glory To Motherland!

#25

I like how you singled my post out apparently because it was the easiest one to refute (although you didn't address a single point in it), notwithstanding the masses of people who think you're a cretin for being an ideamonger.

This post has been edited by Comrade Major: 03 July 2014 - 02:08 PM

1

User is online   Micky C 

  • Honored Donor

#26

View PostDarkhog, on 03 July 2014 - 01:27 PM, said:

Using Blender would have this advantage that no mesh editing/rendering would need to be written, only code that would interpret meshes as sectors and breaks too complex meshes into multiple sectors, then save as Duke map.


You've said this in the initial post, so it's not that people missed it or don't understand it that's the problem. I'm still trying to figure out what exactly the advantage is. What you've listed there as an "advantage" is in fact not an advantage over mapster, rather it is a convenience should an actual advantage come out of it. Likewise all the pros you listed in your initial post are to do with actually MAKING the thing and not actually pros for USING the thing, where the using is the important bit for the end user.

  • Now I'm assuming that you're trying to say that mapping in a 3D program will be faster than using mapster. While that may be true for people highly familar with 3D modelling programs, that's probably just as true for those highly familiar and experienced with mapster. There are a lot of tools and features added over the years that really improve the editing experience in multiple areas.
  • I've had a quick look at Trenchbroom, and the two advantages of that I can make out that it has very easy and fast terrain manipulation ability. However like I said, due to the way slopes work in Build, anything remotely realistic would either be difficult to implement, or otherwise take up a very large number of valuable walls.
  • The other advantage to Trenchbroom appears to be the encouragement to work and think in a 3D space. But of course, Build isn't 3D is it. Yes we have spritework and TROR, but you'd absolutely never, ever be able to convert a 3D level into TROR through an automatic process, and I don't even need to be a coder to know that.

Now IMO slope and terrain work in mapster isn't as good as it could be. I've some ideas to try to streamline the process which I've been meaning to bring up some time, but which might be more convenient to implement after the new text-based map format comes out. My point being that any advantage you can think of to do easier or faster in a 3D modelling program could very well be implemented in mapster32. If you know the developers are never going to officially add a function, or you don't want to wait around for them to do it, there's good news:
You can create your very own editing tools and functions using mapster's built-in scripting capability. The primary use is speeding up repetitive tasks, but you can probably also use it to do some complex geometry and stuff: http://wiki.eduke32....ter32_Scripting

This post has been edited by Micky C: 03 July 2014 - 04:21 PM

2

User is offline   The Commander 

  • I used to be a Brown Fuzzy Fruit, but I've changed bro...

#27

View PostDarkhog, on 03 July 2014 - 01:27 PM, said:

If I'd want to do Duke in modern engine, I'd probably just fire up Unity or Unreal and get to work, not wasting time on these forums. Using Blender would have this advantage that no mesh editing/rendering would need to be written, only code that would interpret meshes as sectors and breaks too complex meshes into multiple sectors, then save as Duke map.

Good luck with that.

View PostDarkhog, on 03 July 2014 - 01:27 PM, said:

//edit: And there are alternative tools than FRAPS for recording things. Most of the time I use Camtasia for it, but if you want something free, try OBS. While its general use case is for streaming, it has recording option as well. It records either into AVI or OGG Video, not sure.

Camtasia is fucking horrible, if you are going for full HD movies then use Fraps, if you are just wanting to record lots of game play at a decent rate of 720 then use Bandicam.

This post has been edited by The Angry Kiwi: 03 July 2014 - 07:56 PM

0

User is offline   Gambini 

#28

View PostDrek, on 03 July 2014 - 01:21 PM, said:

Not as hard as you might think.

Attachment capt0001.png
Attachment capt0002.png

I completely jacked some of Trooper Dan's m32 code from the ongoing WGR2. He has many special effects in there that aren't documented. Instead how they work pop up like this in mapster. :P
IMO the community could build onto a help.m32 script like this to make the ultimate mapster help file.

code...
Spoiler



The true number should be hitag 27 = 1 second.
0

User is offline   Hendricks266 

  • Weaponized Autism

  #29

View PostGambini, on 03 July 2014 - 08:25 PM, said:

The true number should be hitag 27 = 1 second.

Is that true in practice? Despite Todd's intentions, the game actually runs at 30 tics per second.
0

User is offline   Darkhog 

#30

View PostMicky C, on 03 July 2014 - 04:17 PM, said:

You've said this in the initial post, so it's not that people missed it or don't understand it that's the problem. I'm still trying to figure out what exactly the advantage is. What you've listed there as an "advantage" is in fact not an advantage over mapster, rather it is a convenience should an actual advantage come out of it. Likewise all the pros you listed in your initial post are to do with actually MAKING the thing and not actually pros for USING the thing, where the using is the important bit for the end user.

  • Now I'm assuming that you're trying to say that mapping in a 3D program will be faster than using mapster. While that may be true for people highly familar with 3D modelling programs, that's probably just as true for those highly familiar and experienced with mapster. There are a lot of tools and features added over the years that really improve the editing experience in multiple areas.
  • I've had a quick look at Trenchbroom, and the two advantages of that I can make out that it has very easy and fast terrain manipulation ability. However like I said, due to the way slopes work in Build, anything remotely realistic would either be difficult to implement, or otherwise take up a very large number of valuable walls.
  • The other advantage to Trenchbroom appears to be the encouragement to work and think in a 3D space. But of course, Build isn't 3D is it. Yes we have spritework and TROR, but you'd absolutely never, ever be able to convert a 3D level into TROR through an automatic process, and I don't even need to be a coder to know that.

Now IMO slope and terrain work in mapster isn't as good as it could be. I've some ideas to try to streamline the process which I've been meaning to bring up some time, but which might be more convenient to implement after the new text-based map format comes out. My point being that any advantage you can think of to do easier or faster in a 3D modelling program could very well be implemented in mapster32. If you know the developers are never going to officially add a function, or you don't want to wait around for them to do it, there's good news:
You can create your very own editing tools and functions using mapster's built-in scripting capability. The primary use is speeding up repetitive tasks, but you can probably also use it to do some complex geometry and stuff: http://wiki.eduke32....ter32_Scripting

1. I can see mapster32 existing along with that Blender export script. It's all about choice, so people familiar with one or the other can use tool they're more convenient with.
3. You may be right about that, but editing complex maps with TRORs all over the place still would be more convenient with Trenchbroom-like tool.

Well, one problem about Mapster is that it has too many keyboard bindings and too little toolbars and menus. So no, scripts aren't going to help with that one.

This post has been edited by Darkhog: 03 July 2014 - 11:07 PM

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