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Modding original Duke?

User is offline   Darkhog 

  • 4

#1

Anyone know any tutorials on modding original Duke3D? From levels through sounds to custom sprites?

I want to mod original game specifically, the intent being to my mods run regardless of which version of Duke player has, so I need to adhere to lowest common denominator, DOS version, that is. I feel overwhelmed by DukeEd (too many shortcuts and no in-editor help with them listed) so if someone has any more modern level editor that will make levels that run in original engine, preferably similar to Trenchbroom in usage would be appreciate. But I'm okay if something like that doesn't exist - I'll learn DukeEd... eventually.

I'm kinda noob when it comes to modding Duke (but not playing it), so any help on that one would be greatly appreciated.
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User is online   Hendricks266 

  • EDuke32 Senior Developer
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  #2

View PostDarkhog, on 29 June 2014 - 01:15 PM, said:

Anyone know any tutorials on modding original Duke3D? From levels through sounds to custom sprites?

http://wiki.eduke32.com/
http://infosuite.duke4.net/

View PostDarkhog, on 29 June 2014 - 01:15 PM, said:

if someone has any more modern level editor that will make levels that run in original engine

The maps you make in Mapster32 (included with EDuke32) will work in the DOS original so long as you don't exceed the original map limits. What is the "DukeEd" you speak of? The editor included with Megaton?

View PostDarkhog, on 29 June 2014 - 01:15 PM, said:

I want to mod original game specifically, the intent being to my mods run regardless of which version of Duke player has, so I need to adhere to lowest common denominator, DOS version, that is.

Anyone playing DOS Duke 3D is playing with themselves. If your mod targets anything other than EDuke32 then you will be crippling yourself.
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User is offline   Trooper Dan 

  • Duke Plus Developer
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#3

View PostDarkhog, on 29 June 2014 - 01:15 PM, said:

Anyone know any tutorials on modding original Duke3D? From levels through sounds to custom sprites?

I want to mod original game specifically, the intent being to my mods run regardless of which version of Duke player has, so I need to adhere to lowest common denominator, DOS version, that is.


For mapping and most other purposes, the lowest common denominator is Megaton edition on steam. There's no need to use the old DOS version.

Also, you are making a mistake if you think that developing for DOS Duke will insure compatibility with all the ports.

EDIT@Hendricks266: With all of the thousands of bug fixes and changes that have happened over the years, I doubt that you could ensure compatibility with DOS Duke and ports just by sticking within the old sector and wall limits. In fact I remember just recently mappers complaining about levels that crashed in Megaton but not in EDuke32 (even though they were within the limits.)


This post has been edited by Trooper Dan: 29 June 2014 - 01:34 PM

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User is offline   MetHy 

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#4

View PostDarkhog, on 29 June 2014 - 01:15 PM, said:

so if someone has any more modern level editor that will make levels that run in original engine, preferably similar to Trenchbroom in usage would be appreciate.


We wish we had something like that. Even Doom has 'modern' level editors. I hope it will be the next step after LUA.

And good luck; it sure takes a lot of dedication to mod and make maps for Duke3D. As far as mapping is concerned, you will have to learn plenty of keys and key combinaisons (a good start is to have the tutorial and list of command pages open while doing your first steps into the editor); but once you got that out of way things will flow more smoothly.

I guess you can use the simple questions thread if you have anything precise to ask about. Good luck and have fun!

View PostTrooper Dan, on 29 June 2014 - 01:30 PM, said:

EDIT@Hendricks266: With all of the thousands of bug fixes and changes that have happened over the years, I doubt that you could ensure compatibility with DOS Duke and ports just by sticking within the old sector and wall limits. In fact I remember just recently mappers complaining about levels that crashed in Megaton but not in EDuke32 (even though they were within the limits.)


That's true. A random example is how the rockets coming out of the alien spaceship (E2L1 style) on the boss Rooftop map of Duke Hard only works in EDuke32, even though nothing was specifically done to make that effect behave differently than in DOS Duke (i've come to the conclusion that with that effect, the rockets instantly explode if the SE which tells where the rocket is coming from is too high compared to the player's height; I mean, the rockets don't even explode against the ship, they can explode in mid air too as long as that SE is too high compared to the player. Except it works no matter what in EDuke32.)
Other random examples :
-some sprites will appear all glitchy if you make them floor aligned in DOS Duke, but not in EDuke32. I think it has to do with the size of the textures/sprites used; not all sizes used to support floor alignment.
-if you use a semi-transparent mask wall, and behind that mask wall use a texture on a wall that also has transparency; that transparency part of the texture, instead of being black like it is normally (with no mask wall in front of it) it will appear pink so long as there is that semi-transparent mask wall in front of it. However in EDuke32, it does appear black no matter what which means you have more freedom as far as what to put behind semi-transparent mask walls are concerned.

These are pretty minor examples; but if you're not careful small things like this will add together and end up making a map that is EDuke32 only, even if your intention is to make a vanilla map.

It still is HEAVILY recommended to use mapster32 over the old Build or JFBuild; even if you want to make something vanilla-compatible. You just have to remember to check your map in vanilla Duke from times to times to make sure everything is right.


This post has been edited by MetHy: 29 June 2014 - 01:52 PM

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User is offline   Luca91 

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#5

If can be usefull I've written a tutorial on how to mod duke nukem 3d (steam version) here: http://dn3d.gamebanana.com/tuts/11648
In this tutorial I show how to change the texture of a switch, but you can mod every texture. Hope that this will help you.


EDIT:

Quote

Any good luck; it sure takes a lot of dedication to mod and make maps for Duke3D. As far as mapping is concerned, you will have to learn plenty of keys and key combinaisons (a good start is to have the tutorial and list of command pages open while doing your first steps into the editor); but once you got that out of way things will flow more smoothly.

This eventually helped me a lot (even if I've still some questions): http://infosuite.duke4.net/index.php

EDIT2: sorry for re-posting this link, I missed the Hendricks266 reply :) (He's the one that gave me that link 2 days ago ;))

This post has been edited by Luca91: 29 June 2014 - 01:53 PM

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User is offline   Darkhog 

  • 4

#6

@Hendricks I tend to disagree about crippling yourself part - I've seen many awesome mods from before eduke existed (mostly on YT videos) and heck, even original levels are real showcase of what original engine is capable of. And yes, by ukeEd I meant editor coming with Duke. From what I gathered this is common name of it since BUILD (name editor presents you with) is also name of engine.

//edit-up: I've bought Atomic on GOG during sale. Will it work here as well?

This post has been edited by Darkhog: 29 June 2014 - 01:46 PM

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User is offline   Luca91 

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#7

Quote

//edit-up: I've bought Atomic on GOG during sale. Will it work here as well?


Please post a pic of the content of your Duke Nukem 3d gameroot directory, and I'll let you know if this will work for you. Btw I think that this will work :)
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User is offline   MetHy 

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#8

View PostMetHy, on 29 June 2014 - 01:37 PM, said:

Other random examples :
-some sprites will appear all glitchy if you make them floor aligned in DOS Duke, but not in EDuke32. I think it has to do with the size of the textures/sprites used; not all sizes used to support floor alignment.
-if you use a semi-transparent mask wall, and behind that mask wall use a texture on a wall that also has transparency; that transparency part of the texture, instead of being black like it is normally (with no mask wall in front of it) it will appear pink so long as there is that semi-transparent mask wall in front of it. However in EDuke32, it does appear black no matter what which means you have more freedom as far as what to put behind semi-transparent mask walls are concerned.


Also, subway sectors used to only be able to carry active sprites (or else it would appear all glitchy). In EDuke32, they can carry any sprite. So if you don't know that, make a map and put sprites on a subway sector and see it work in EDuke32, you wouldn't suspect it doesn't work in vanilla.

Again, minor example, but there is probably more; plenty of small things seem to be possible in EDuke32 which weren't possible in vanilla Duke; so one shouldn't expect his map to work invanilla Duke if he's built it with mapster32, just because he didn't go over the limit.
Since there is no list of all the small differences like this between vanilla and EDuke32, if you want to do a vanilla map, the best thing remains to test your map every so-often to make sure it behaves normally in DOS Duke. Again, even with the extra trouble of having to do that, it still is worth it to map in mapster32 over the old Build due to all the new features added to the editor.


This post has been edited by MetHy: 29 June 2014 - 02:01 PM

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User is online   Hendricks266 

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  #9

View PostDarkhog, on 29 June 2014 - 01:45 PM, said:

@Hendricks I tend to disagree about crippling yourself part - I've seen many awesome mods from before eduke existed (mostly on YT videos) and heck, even original levels are real showcase of what original engine is capable of.

You can disagree with facts but they remain true. Sure, the original could do a lot and we wouldn't be here without years of modding the original DOS game thanks to Todd. But EDuke32 can do much, much more. The best of the original mods, such as SST TC, required advanced hackery and plenty of planning in order to do what they do, while in EDuke32 it is as simple as using a gamevar and result in a clean product instead of something that breaks if you type a cheat code or open the menu.

View PostDarkhog, on 29 June 2014 - 01:45 PM, said:

//edit-up: I've bought Atomic on GOG during sale. Will it work here as well?

Yes. In fact, if you use the GOG installer, EDuke32 should detect its folder and run without requiring any copying of your own.
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User is offline   Darkhog 

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#10

View PostHendricks266, on 29 June 2014 - 02:01 PM, said:

You can disagree with facts but they remain true. Sure, the original could do a lot and we wouldn't be here without years of modding the original DOS game thanks to Todd. But EDuke32 can do much, much more. The best of the original mods, such as SST TC, required advanced hackery and plenty of planning in order to do what they do, while in EDuke32 it is as simple as using a gamevar and result in a clean product instead of something that breaks if you type a cheat code or open the menu.


Yes. In fact, if you use the GOG installer, EDuke32 should detect its folder and run without requiring any copying of your own.

The main fact behind me not wanting to mod/play eduke is called polygonal meshes. I don't want polygonal meshes. I want sprites. The more pixelated the better.

This post has been edited by Darkhog: 30 June 2014 - 01:09 PM

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User is online   blizzart 

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#11

View PostDarkhog, on 30 June 2014 - 01:08 PM, said:

The main fact behind me not wanting to mod/play eduke is called polygonal meshes. I don't want polygonal meshes. I want sprites. The more pixelated the better.


You CAN use polygonal models with EDuke32 but you donīt HAVE to.
In case you donīt know, EDuke is working with 3 different renderer you can choose of: Classic, Polymost and Polymer

While itīs name explains it by itself, the classic renderer shows everything as you used to know from DOS Duke. Polymost is a OpenGL renderer and Polymer adds stuff like dynamic lights and shader support to EDuke32. Both Polymost and Polymer can be used with Hires textures and models.

So if you want to map/mod with the classic 8bit look in mind, nothing stops you from using the classic renderer.

Although most maps and mods today are released for the classic renderer or 8bit with Polymost rendering (lets the textures look more smooth, but doesnīt replaces them with Hires ones).

AMC TC for example is made for 8bit and is using a hell of advantages of EDuke32, especially code-wise.
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User is online   Hendricks266 

  • EDuke32 Senior Developer
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  #12

View PostDarkhog, on 30 June 2014 - 01:08 PM, said:

The main fact behind me not wanting to mod/play eduke is called polygonal meshes. I don't want polygonal meshes. I want sprites. The more pixelated the better.

Where did you hear this? As blizzart said, while EDuke32 supports 3D models in the OpenGL modes, all three renderers will run with classic 8-bit pixel art.
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User is offline   Jblade 

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#13

Yeah I'm just gonna be the third person to chime in...3D models and rendering is by no means forced in Eduke32 and a large amount of people still play with the classic renderer (myself included) You can make your mod as hi-tech or low-tech as you'd like :)
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User is offline   Daedolon 

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#14

View PostDarkhog, on 29 June 2014 - 01:45 PM, said:

And yes, by ukeEd I meant editor coming with Duke.


I've been modding and mapping for Duke3D since its release and I've never heard of DukeED before.

Lunick: I can't believe you can pre-order Duke Nukem 3D in 2016
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User is offline   TerminX 

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  #15

View PostDarkhog, on 30 June 2014 - 01:08 PM, said:

The main fact behind me not wanting to mod/play eduke is called polygonal meshes. I don't want polygonal meshes. I want sprites. The more pixelated the better.

Posted Image

Seriously though, what are you smoking? EDuke32 has the same software renderer that the DOS version has, you just have to select and use it. The only difference is ours runs faster due to a decade of extra work other ports can't boast about having done.

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User is online   Hendricks266 

  • EDuke32 Senior Developer
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  #16

I don't know if it's something special about EDuke32 or something inherent with tardbases, but I've even had to correct misinformation on Wikipedia.

https://en.wikipedia...oldid=512838891

https://en.wikipedia...oldid=586419796
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User is offline   Trooper Dan 

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#17

Why the hostility? If someone is misinformed, we can just correct them without insulting them and driving them away.
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User is offline   MusicallyInspired 

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#18

I don't see any hostility...besides TerminX being protective of his baby. I wouldn't call that hostility, though.

Roland SC-55 Music Packs
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User is online   blizzart 

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#19

View PostHendricks266, on 30 June 2014 - 03:04 PM, said:

I don't know if it's something special about EDuke32 or something inherent with tardbases, but I've even had to correct misinformation on Wikipedia.

https://en.wikipedia...oldid=512838891

https://en.wikipedia...oldid=586419796


I will add it on the German Wikipedia today. There isnīt even a real part for EDuke32.
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User is offline   Jblade 

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#20

Yeah like Dan said there's no need for calling a new member a fucking retard just because he doesn't know all of the details of Eduke32. We WANT new people here, even if they don't know everything because the community will stagnate otherwise (I don't know if you want that to happen I guess?)

Yeah WE know that's your sense of humour, the majority of people don't though.

Quote

I don't see any hostility...besides TerminX being protective of his baby. I wouldn't call that hostility, though.

Do you have much self-respect? If you posted a question on a forum for a new game you were interested in modding in and the 'community leader' posted a gif saying 'retard alarm' what would you honestly think? I mean actually honestly, not just saying what you think they want you to hear?


This post has been edited by James: 30 June 2014 - 11:00 PM

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User is offline   MusicallyInspired 

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#21

Nobody said "f***ing" anything. He said "Seriously," afterwards, implying he was exaggerating everything up to that point in good fun. At least that's what my mind thinks everytime I read that. The harshest thing he said was "what are you smoking", which I suppose is a little sharp. That's a far cry from "f***ing retard", though.

Roland SC-55 Music Packs
Duke3D, Doom, Descent, Hocus Pocus, and more...
Legacy of Grabbag Metal Medley
01010100 01110010 01110101 01110011 01110100 00100000 01010100 01001000 00110001
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User is online   blizzart 

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#22

Donīt let us get off-topic.

Fact is, everything you can do with DOS Duke you can do with EDuke32, too. EDuke is just more stable and you donīt have to use DOSBox to run it on a mordern OS.
Also you can do much much more with EDuke, especially code-wise. I donīt even think there are many people out there who play DOS Duke anymore. So you would waste a lot of time workig around with the old and unstable Build Editor while Mapster32 provides so many advantages and more freedom. For example a way better working with the mouse. Does anybody remember how complicated and time consuming it was to slope a sector in Build?

So there is really no need of using DOS Duke, most of the people will play it with EDuke anyway.

The conclusion is, if you want to make a classic looking map or mod with EDuke, feel free to do so. Everything is working and looking the same way like in DOS Duke, it is just less frustating for YOU to create it.
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User is offline   Micky C 

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#23

That's still off-topic. The impression I got from the post was that he's after how to mod the game to ensure maximum compatibility regardless of the version of Duke used. He only mentioned maps and art, so as long as he stays away from DEF files, and maps within the original map limits, he should be good to go. If he's not doing any coding, he has no reason to specifically use eduke32. Nevertheless as people have no-so-subtly pointed out, everyone's going to play it with eduke32 anyway, and yes it will look 99.99999% the same as the original DOS version.

Polymer wishlist: Global illumination, SSAO, Bloom, reflective surfaces, adjustable specular (wetness), volumetric lighting.
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User is offline   Jblade 

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#24

View PostMusicallyInspired, on 01 July 2014 - 12:05 AM, said:

Nobody said "f***ing" anything. He said "Seriously," afterwards, implying he was exaggerating everything up to that point in good fun. At least that's what my mind thinks everytime I read that. The harshest thing he said was "what are you smoking", which I suppose is a little sharp. That's a far cry from "f***ing retard", though.

I know he didn't say fucking, I was being dramatic. Being unfriendly to new people for a shit joke is not 'all in good fun', unless you want the community to shrink into nothing.
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User is offline   MetHy 

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#25

View PostMicky C, on 01 July 2014 - 12:36 AM, said:

He only mentioned maps and art, so as long as he stays away from DEF files, and maps within the original map limits, he should be good to go. If he's not doing any coding, he has no reason to specifically use eduke32.



As far as maps are concerned, like I said if you use mapster32 to map it's sadly not as simple as not going over the limit. Your map Abstractech doesn't go over the limit but can't be played in anything other than EDuke32 (and it doesn't use anything out of the examples I mentioned above; so the reasons why it doesn't work in vanilla is because of other EDuke32 only smallthings).

I still think he should use mapster32 for his maps, because the old Build is a pain to use in comparaison. He just has to either be careful not to use plenty of effects in new ways, or to make sure those behave the same in DOS Duke too with thorough testing; or use new coding for those effects (if possible with DOS Duke). If I wanted to make a vanilla map, I'd do it with mapster32; just with extra testing.

Finally, he said he wanted vanilla compatibility so every version can play his mod basically; although I don't know much about that I know it's not that simple.
Let's say you make a mod for DOS Duke, well, for one thing the musics won't work in Megaton.
I'm sure plenty of small things may behave differently too, depending on what your mod uses and how he uses it.

And finally, a DOS Duke mod doesn't mean you're going to get for players. For one, very few people use DOS Duke anymore and if they do it's play the original game. Then, the vast majority of Megaton users stick to the workshop; having to drop a .grp file in the Steam game directory and running it using the launch command settings, is too complicated for them (and that's only assuming your mod works with Megaton).
Then, installation and running the game with DOS Duke will be more complicated than with EDuke32; and even very easy and detailed installation instructions, in which you only have to unzip a file and select the right directory in the EDuke32 startup window, gave trouble to some people, so imagine with a DOS installation....

In other words, OP, other people ITT are my witness : I am DEFINITLY not an EDuke32 cock-sucker; yet even I think that as far as Duke3D modding is concerned, you're better off using EDuke32, and that's without even mentionning all the coding simplicity and possibilities of EDuke32 (which I know nothing about)


This post has been edited by MetHy: 01 July 2014 - 03:18 AM

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User is offline   Daedolon 

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#26

View PostMicky C, on 01 July 2014 - 12:36 AM, said:

He only mentioned maps


So he specifically has a good reason to use Mapster32?

Lunick: I can't believe you can pre-order Duke Nukem 3D in 2016
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User is offline   The Commander 

  • I used to be a Brown Fuzzy Fruit, but I've changed bro...
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#27

View PostDaedolon, on 01 July 2014 - 06:48 AM, said:

So he specifically has a good reason to use Mapster32?

It works on modern systems?

Posted Image
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User is offline   Daedolon 

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#28

If you have really missed a decade of optimization and updates in user-friendliness and overall comfort for faster level editing with a reliable system to prevent you from completely corrupting your map, then I feel sorry for you.

Lunick: I can't believe you can pre-order Duke Nukem 3D in 2016
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User is offline   TerminX 

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  #29

View PostTrooper Dan, on 30 June 2014 - 06:53 PM, said:

Why the hostility? If someone is misinformed, we can just correct them without insulting them and driving them away.

Honestly? Because someone linked the image on IRC and I found it hilarious. The user in question has already written off EDuke32 due to their own misconceptions... I would rather do something productive (or at least post bullshit and get a laugh) than waste what very limited free time I have lately trying to explain why the incorrect conclusion someone reached was incorrect. If they care at all that they are or could be wrong, they'll seek the correct answer. If someone wants to run away due to a silly animated gif, they're certainly welcome to! The kind of users I personally want around here would be more apt to suck it up and reevaluate their positions, because the forum admin probably doesn't post "RETARD ALERT" for completely no reason. :P

But yes, it was a joke, as if the very fact that it was a giant sign made out of Duke Nukem 3D graphics proclaiming "RETARD ALERT" didn't give that away. My sincerest apologies for any ruffling of feathers, bunching up of panties or sticks finding their way into anuses that may have occurred.

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User is offline   Darkhog 

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#30

Lots of good feedback there. I'll use eduke for base then since is seems that's everyone is playing nowadays.
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