[Frederik Schreiber]

With the re-launch of the 3DR website, I would love to get some input on an idea.

Would you guys to be interested in an official Duke Nukem 3D / Shadow Warrior "Map of the Month" contest?

We would supply some great 3D Realms / Apogee Prizes for the winner each month, and have a user voting system on our website for this purpose.
It would be cool to followup with an interview with the designer, a walkthrough of the level, as well as a small "Trailer", and ofc. a direct download link.

We could extend this by working with some of our good friends. We could work with Richard Grey (levelord), each month and have him give feedback, or even Review the user maps, as well
as a secondary review from our own Lead Level Designer.

Let me know what you think

[Jblade]

That would certainly be very cool to take part in!

[xMobilemux]

This would be the kind of thing that would get me into Eduke map making

Sounds like an awesome idea, maybe you could also add in a Duke3D/SW Mod of the Year contest since there were some pretty cool mods released for Duke last year.

[MetHy]

So if I get this right, this would be a contest for usermaps?

Sounds like a great idea and if it happens, it would be the best thing that has happened to the community since Megaton's workshop and the newborn interest it created for usermaps.

Can you please clarify a few things though?
Would the SW/DN3D sections be seperate? (if they are, there wouldn't be much into the SW category sadly...)

How can a map enter the contest? Only new maps that get created each month can inter the following month's contest; or each month a list of maps are chosen by you (or by a forum vote system?) out of which people get to vote?
-if it is the former, less maps would be into each contest (and a LOT less possibilities to choose from); but it would motivate mappers to make new maps, as well as I'm sure new mappers joining in, which would definitly trigger a new-born activity in the community and of the numbers of usermaps created which is why I'd like this possibility more (perhaps I'm too optimistic though...).
-If it is the latter, then how are the maps picked? YOU getting to pick the maps (and not the community) would be the only real possibility. If on the contrary people get to vote each month for the contestants, then the same 20 best maps would ALWAYS end up into the contest until every single one of them has won and this would last at least 2 years; unless of course a same map can't enter the contest twice but in this case all the best maps would be out in 2-3months. The problem is that the community as a whole pretty much agrees on what are the best maps ever (the Roch series, the Bobsp series, Red4, It Lives, etc)

Can a mapper have several maps into the contest ?
What about maps created by several mappers?
What would you do to prevent people from cheating and vote several times?

I'm sorry about the wall of text but that just means I'm very excited about the idea so the possibilities of how it could be just fly in my head.
Whatever the outcome it can only do good to the community.

[Lunick]

As much as I love the idea... shouldn't 3D Realms be moving forward? Don't get me wrong, I'm sure a little contest wouldn't hurt nobody but they're not THAT many people who can map for Duke 3D (and not to mention Shadow Warrior) and even then it would be catering to a small group of fans.

Not that I could think of anything better though

[Forge]

great.
one of the stipulations should be to have to incorporate the new alpha/beta material

[Hank]

Lunick, on 26 April 2014 - 04:28 PM, said:

As much as I love the idea... shouldn't 3D Realms be moving forward? Don't get me wrong, I'm sure a little contest wouldn't hurt nobody but they're not THAT many people who can map for Duke 3D (and not to mention Shadow Warrior) and even then it would be catering to a small group of fans.

... maybe it is moving forward without leaving the old and new fans in the dust. Having this contest does not exclude developing new games.

[MetHy]

MetHy, on 26 April 2014 - 03:31 PM, said:

How can a map enter the contest? Only new maps that get created each month can inter the following month's contest; or each month a list of maps are chosen by you (or by a forum vote system?) out of which people get to vote?
[...]
-If it is the latter, then how are the maps picked? YOU getting to pick the maps (and not the community) would be the only real possibility. If on the contrary people get to vote each month for the contestants, then the same 20 best maps would ALWAYS end up into the contest until every single one of them has won and this would last at least 2 years; unless of course a same map can't enter the contest twice but in this case all the best maps would be out in 2-3months. The problem is that the community as a whole pretty much agrees on what are the best maps ever (the Roch series, the Bobsp series, Red4, It Lives, etc)

I thought of another possibility after typing that. Again, it's only a random thought, I'm not trying to tell you how to do your job, I don't even know how the contest will be.
But in the case it's the latter possibility that I left in the above quote, you could make a list of maps that range from good to great; and you could use a program that each month randomly picks the contestants out of that list. Once a map has won, it gets removed from the list. You could also share the list so that anyone can suggest a map to be added to it.
This would be a fair but also easy/time-saving solution.

Also what about deathmatch-only maps ?
What about maps that were only released as part of an episode or mod?

[Frederik Schreiber]

I think the most straight forward approach would work well.
The map-makers will submit their maps each month through email, and at the end of the month we'll list them with a vote button next to them, and direct download links.
We'll let the vote run for a month, and pick a winner (And next months maps will replace the prev. ones).

An other option is that we don't allow user voting, and we get Levelord and our lead level designer Leon to pick the winners of each month.
Maybe have George Broussard help out as well, as a "Panel of Judges".

All feedback is welcome!

[Daedolon]

Although "Map of the Month" rhymes better, a month is easily not enough time if you're looking for high quality levels and multiple participants (not everyone can build fast, for example). Something like "Map of the Quarter" would be easily more plausible and possible more people would bite the bullet to enter.

Then there's also the question of using pre-made maps to enter (even maps that aren't released but have been works in progress for a long time), which would be completely unfair against others who don't have maps under their flag yet.

If there's some sort of clear guidelining and set of rules after some development of this idea, I think quite a few of amazing maps could be gotten out of this.


For the voting and reward system, I don't really have an opinion, either should work fine. The best possible reward anyone could get is have Levelord give constructive criticism over your levels.

[Komenja]

This is an awesome idea!

[MetHy]

Daedolon, on 27 April 2014 - 11:13 AM, said:

Although "Map of the Month" rhymes better, a month is easily not enough time if you're looking for high quality levels and multiple participants (not everyone can build fast, for example). Something like "Map of the Quarter" would be easily more plausible and possible more people would bite the bullet to enter.

I think map of the month (rather than quarter) could definitely boost up creativity, whether pre-existing maps can enter or not (but it could boost it more if they can't).
There is something about time constraints that boosts creativity and sometimes even quality (although obviously a map of the month contest doesn't actually force anyone to come up with a map within a month). Out of my maps (including maps made with other mappers), the one that I consider the best, is one that was made within a self-given one day/24hours time limit. It makes you focus on a few ideas instead of being able to go in every direction and do meaningless things.

I would also like to believe it COULD as a result get mappers to concentrate on gameplay and layout rather than spending 5 years building a thousand small details into the map that half of the players aren't going to notice anyway; imho that would do good to this community.

[Daedolon]

Since the idea is to have some sort of rewards (physical or otherwise), it would be completely unfair against both other mappers and to productivity to allow old maps in this system. If someone comes in and "wins" (whatever that might end up meaning) with a map that he's already spent 3 years on finishing, I'd say it's yet another completely new map never made as well as a slap to the face of everyone who actually took their time during that month to create something new.

[MetHy]

Yeah I agree, plus if already released maps are allowed, like I said, we can already guess the winners of the first few months.

On the other hand, if only new maps are allowed, perhaps that would tickle Pascal Rouaud's ego to make Roch 9.

The positive side in any case though, is that it would get more people to play those maps, people who wouldn't have if they weren't given a highlight by 3DRealms itself; even if those maps are the most known Duke3D usermaps and were released 10 years ago.
It brings up yet another wave of usermap players (after Megaton) which is only welcome. Some of the players will go further than only playing the winning maps. Plus a handful of them will start making their own maps, that's what Megaton did, that's what this contest could do.

However the contest may be, it can only be welcome.

[DNSKILL5]

The Wolfenstein community used to do a map of the month and the issues with it was that not enough people were making maps, and they all thought a month wasn't enough time (plus the community gets smaller and smaller as time goes by).. So they changed it to a seasonal type thing (someone would win every 3 months).

They have a set of rules and what they do is make a map set, and then people get to vote on their favorite map (nobody that submitted a map can vote, and the people who are voting don't know who made what map).

[Hendricks266]

^Those are good rules.

The way most contests work is that to be considered, the submission must have its first public release fall within the entry time. It's fine if you start working on it before then--it's not a "month map challenge".

[Kyanos]

I was thinking it wouldn't be too hard to release a map editor specifically for a contest. It only reads and writes maps of its own format. Then 3DR can have a converter to get the maps to a state that they are playable in Eduke. Assuming the competition is running Eduke32.

[Micky C]

I think people are getting a bit ahead of themselves. Never did Fred explicitly state that the maps had to be brand new, nor that they had to be made within a month. Even if it was, it'd be difficult to prove that a map was started and finished within a month, especially if the mapper was smart about it.

Btw Drek I have the feeling that doing things like releasing new map editors are going beyond what 3DR would be willing to invest in this. Is it really worth the effort?

Edit: No matter what way you look at it, it's always going to be not fair to someone. Either someone will have spend more time mapping or started earlier than someone else. And of course someone with more mapping experience will have an advantage over someone with less.

[Forge]

use only newly released maps after the start of the contest process
one winner is picked a month by a panel or person (there can be a public vote system as well)
the rest of the maps are recycled into the next month's pool
any new maps can be submitted and added to the pool

this will keep the pool of maps full and if a really good map doesn't win it has a chance to win the following month

what should be considered is how many maps a single person can have in the pool at one time. & how many times can a single person win over what period of time.
things like - can they pull a map that has been in the pool for awhile and replace it with a new release

not everybody has the same amount of free time to map. some people are not fast mappers.
you let a person submit as many maps as they want in as short of time period as they want and you'll end up with a pool of 30 Mickey C maps in about 6 months
not a bad thing for those of us who like to play Mickey's maps, but probably daunting to everyone who would consider entering a submission

[Micky C]

And are there any requirements? For example, mappers could literally spend 1.5 hours on a map with 5 minutes of gameplay. It could be a decent map, but players would be disappointed when it unexpectedly finishes.

[DNSKILL5]

What are you trying to say Mickey? I'm not really following you here..

[Forge]

Mickey C, on 27 April 2014 - 03:42 PM, said:

...players would be disappointed...

i see what you mean, but i think that sound bite speaks for itself
no matter how many times it gets recycled in the roll over to the following month, if that's the type of system put into place, it won't win if there's something better

one of the requirements should be that it's new release. that would help even the playing field
there shouldn't a build time limit. if it takes six months to finish the level, then that's how long it takes

imo, monthly is too much. even though this revitalizing of shadow warrior/duke3d might spark more player interest, i don't see it creating a huge spike in new mappers. Megaton created a few and brought some people out of hiding, but i don't think this will create that much more. Even with some kind of prize being offered.

[Daedolon]

Mickey C, on 27 April 2014 - 02:35 PM, said:

No matter what way you look at it, it's always going to be not fair to someone.

Of course, but if the first eight winners would end up being Roch one through eight, I don't really see other people holding enough interest in this in the end if it's to become a "best maps of all time kind of a thing that would last about 2 to 3 years". I'd rather have something that would cherish new content.

[Jimmy]

>implying Roch 1 is a good enough map to win anything

[Daedolon]

I dunno, last time I played it was like during the French Revolution. Someone just mentioned that they're good.

[Jimmy]

The quality really picks up after the first one, but for an early Duke3D map you're better off playing TimeCop.

[Micky C]

Red 1 was remade anyway so there you go

There's also the question of whether mods should be allowed.

[Jblade]

Mickey C, on 27 April 2014 - 03:42 PM, said:

And are there any requirements? For example, mappers could literally spend 1.5 hours on a map with 5 minutes of gameplay. It could be a decent map, but players would be disappointed when it unexpectedly finishes.

Yeah like Gerolf said not getting your point here dude, a map like that wouldn't be very good unless it had something hugely innovative in it. I doubt it'd win anything and if it did, it doesn't matter how long the author spent on it.

The contest should just be for new maps, that's it. I don't see why it's even a subject of debate or anything?

[Forge]

i'm guessing maps would have to be submitted by the map author. That may eliminate Roch maps, but still, who's going to try to put something up against It Lives or Red 5?
Gambini, both Oostrums, MRCK, WG (if he decides to stop avoiding the community), and several other good mappers have quite large portfolios of excellent maps to pick and choose from.

this will end up similar to one of those online bidding sites, like ebay or something, where everyone holds to the last minute to submit a map 'cause they're waiting to see what other people are dropping and if it's even worth their time to try.

[Micky C]

gerolf, on 27 April 2014 - 07:02 PM, said:

What are you trying to say Mickey? I'm not really following you here..

The point is what if we end up with 90% of the maps being crap? Sure the winner will be easy to choose, but then what's the point of the competition if not to generate some new decent user maps?

We've already got an unofficial Mapper of the Month over at CGS, which while probably lies under the radar most of the time, gives noteworthy authors a bit of the recognition they deserve, while also allows users to check out their best maps and read about some of their thoughts on mapping, Duke, and the community.