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CPAC - Establishment vs Tea, who is whining?

User is offline   Alan 

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#31

The notion is not only absurd, but was likely being introduced as a wedge to outlaw abortions even in the case of rape, as part of the right's on-going struggle to fuck the lower classes (as hinted by the fact that some pro-life politicians have had spouses undergo abortions themselves or stood to profit from them a la Romney).

The idea that it should be seriously studied dignifies the claim in support of the balance fallacy. Maybe it should be studied to shut up the quacks, but when has evidence ever shut them up? Cognitive dissonance are keeping them, and by extension the rest of us, back as a society.

Abstraksjon: når man tror at noe gjør det enklere, men fører til at det blir komplisert.

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User is offline   MetroidJunkie 

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#32

View PostAlan, on 10 March 2014 - 05:47 PM, said:

Of course he can't come out saying it's not bad; that would be political suicide. If he could get away with it he would, but they haven't shifted the Overton window that far to the right yet (though they've made great strides in that over the past 40 years).


Now you're just assuming the worst out of him, that's not exactly a sound argument against him. Assumption is the lowest form of intelligence.


A much better argument against abortion with rape is to point out that rape constitutes less than 1% of abortions and we can easily eliminate it by giving rape victims medical treatments to prevent pregnancy in the first place. It's alot better than having her abort and inflicting her with the emotional and psychological torture associated with that.

This post has been edited by MetroidJunkie: 10 March 2014 - 06:31 PM

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User is offline   Inspector Lagomorf 

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#33

View PostAlan, on 10 March 2014 - 06:25 PM, said:

The notion is not only absurd, but was likely being introduced as a wedge to outlaw abortions even in the case of rape, as part of the right's on-going struggle to fuck the lower classes (as hinted by the fact that some pro-life politicians have had spouses undergo abortions themselves or stood to profit from them a la Romney).

The idea that it should be seriously studied dignifies the claim in support of the balance fallacy. Maybe it should be studied to shut up the quacks, but when has evidence ever shut them up? Cognitive dissonance are keeping them, and by extension the rest of us, back as a society.


That's the point. Todd Akin of all people should be repudiated for what he said, because he is a politician in a role of power, in a position to legislate. Quackery should never be used as a tool of legislators.

Quote

A much better argument against abortion with rape is to point out that rape constitutes less than 1% of abortions and we can easily eliminate it by giving rape victims medical treatments to prevent pregnancy in the first place. It's alot better than having her abort and inflicting her with the emotional and psychological torture associated with that.


It's a decent argument but you still cannot use it to eliminate the option. Every case is different.

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This post has been edited by Comrade Major: 10 March 2014 - 06:34 PM

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User is offline   MetroidJunkie 

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#34

View PostComrade Major, on 10 March 2014 - 06:32 PM, said:



It's a decent argument but you still cannot use it to eliminate the option. Every case is different.


Then add an exception for rape victims, health of mother, and health of child. That'd cut abortion by 93%, the overwhelming majority are for reasons of birth control.
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#35

View PostMark., on 10 March 2014 - 05:56 PM, said:

I hope I don't get hammered for playing Devil's advocate on the Akin claim. I know of no studies that have proven or disproven his theory. Think about all the other emotions or outside stimuli that trigger chemical and hormonal changes in the body. There are many examples ( sex, love, fear etc.. ) but I want to keep the post short. As we know, a woman's body has chemical barriers that are harmful to sperm ( and other germs or bacteria ) and most are killed off while travelling to their goal. Is it remotely possible that during the stress of rape the brain triggers a reaction so that some extra acidity might build up in the woman's passages to help kill off sperm more effectively? I'm not agreeing with Akin. I'm just suggesting that the notion is not as wild and looney as it was portrayed.


This is the dumbest thing you've ever written. Sorry.

These kinds of statements are why I bash your generation politically. I have never seen any group of people so quick to defend "their" party or "their" candidate, regardless of what they do or say. Low standards create poor leaders.

http://www.politico....0812/79895.html

I still think you're cool and all, but dude...really? Five minutes maximum would have kept the spaghetti from dropping.

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This post has been edited by Protected by Viper: 10 March 2014 - 08:08 PM

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User is offline   MetroidJunkie 

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#36

I'll give Todd Akin slight credit for admitting he screwed up and apologizing. If he's been enlightened on the subject since then, then I think we can let it go.
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#37

View PostMetroidJunkie, on 10 March 2014 - 08:16 PM, said:

I'll give Todd Akin slight credit for admitting he screwed up and apologizing. If he's been enlightened on the subject since then, then I think we can let it go.


No we can't. You have to be a fucking retard to believe that stance. Where do you live again?

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#38

Let me clarify, the "fucking retard" statement is directed at Aiken. Anyone that ignorant and stupid doesn't belong in fucking Congress. It doesn't matter if he lost re-election, he is the single best example of the extreme right there is. He's just vocalizing how many in the party feel towards rape and abortion. The difference is they are smart enough not to say it.

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Muslims are peaceful people oppressed by cis white males! Hillary for presidynt!
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This post has been edited by Protected by Viper: 10 March 2014 - 08:36 PM

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User is offline   MetroidJunkie 

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#39

So you would never allow someone to be redeemed because they said something ignorant? This may come as a shocker but we're flawed human beings who make mistakes. What he said was ignorantly stupid but don't you think he deserves a chance to change? Certainly, he'll have to regain trust but this 'never forgive' attitude will rule out very good people by noosing them to their past.

This post has been edited by MetroidJunkie: 10 March 2014 - 08:43 PM

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#40

Such ignorance goes wider and deeper than a single statement.
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User is offline   Jimmy 

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#41

View PostAlan, on 10 March 2014 - 04:26 PM, said:

Of course not. Both of those countries have a military-trained populace, the latter having a huge number of armed militias. :wub: The argument of "it works there but it can't work here" is another born of American exceptionalism. I know the EU has its share of problems and not all of them are doing that well. Incidentally it's the ones that are built to benefit sociopaths who do the worst. It's no coincidence that the era that saw the highest tax rates was also our most financially stable and provided a healthier life for the lower and middle class.

You're forgetting the part where those are small homogenous nations and their "military" "trained" populaces are skinny and pale. We have states that are bigger than Switzerland. The point isn't "American exceptionalism". It's that we require different solutions to our problems because we have different problems.

View PostMetroidJunkie, on 10 March 2014 - 08:43 PM, said:

So you would never allow someone to be redeemed because they said something ignorant? This may come as a shocker but we're flawed human beings who make mistakes. What he said was ignorantly stupid but don't you think he deserves a chance to change? Certainly, he'll have to regain trust but this 'never forgive' attitude will rule out very good people by noosing them to their past.

Implying that was the only stupid shit he ever said.

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#42

To Mark and Metroid Junkie:

If this guy were a Democrat you'd be all over him like a fly on shit.

Typical Neocon reaction. "Better be a hardass about a sensitive topic." "This politician is on my team, I better support him and point the finger at the other team when he's called out."

I have more than a couple friends who've been raped. Nothing pisses me off more than people who lack empathy. Rape is a big fucking deal. It nearly led one of my friends to kill himself. And I find it amazing, seriously fucking amazing that the only people who say this shit are those whose ideologies are only dictated by emotion and fear. Statistics be damned, along with the emotions of others.

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User is offline   Alan 

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#43

View PostMetroidJunkie, on 10 March 2014 - 06:29 PM, said:

Now you're just assuming the worst out of him, that's not exactly a sound argument against him. Assumption is the lowest form of intelligence.


Politicians are psychopaths hiding behind the mask of humanity. These are the same people who fight every day to disenfranchise the working class by defunding public services left and right in an attempt to acquire "fiscal responsibility and efficiency" (despite their proven track record of standing for anything but) and to destroy civil liberties and basic human rights under the banner of patriotism.

View PostMetroidJunkie, on 10 March 2014 - 06:29 PM, said:

A much better argument against abortion with rape is to point out that rape constitutes less than 1% of abortions and we can easily eliminate it by giving rape victims medical treatments to prevent pregnancy in the first place. It's alot better than having her abort and inflicting her with the emotional and psychological torture associated with that.


That's because rapists are often not stupid enough to do it without protection and women may often use things like contraception to avoid the risk.

Edit: Also it's estimated that about 6% of male-on-female rapes lead to pregnancies but it doesn't take into account things like age of the victim and health conditions, so the number could theoretically be higher if you control for females who are fertile and suffering no ailments that would prevent pregnancy. Not that this statistically low number justifies barring abortion in the case of rape at all.

View PostJimmy, on 10 March 2014 - 10:15 PM, said:

You're forgetting the part where those are small homogenous nations and their "military" "trained" populaces are skinny and pale. We have states that are bigger than Switzerland. The point isn't "American exceptionalism". It's that we require different solutions to our problems because we have different problems.


Yeah, we have different problems, but the solutions are the same. I'll elaborate more later.

Abstraksjon: når man tror at noe gjør det enklere, men fører til at det blir komplisert.

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This post has been edited by Alan: 11 March 2014 - 05:19 AM

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User is offline   Mark. 

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#44

View PostProtected by Viper, on 10 March 2014 - 11:05 PM, said:

To Mark and Metroid Junkie:

If this guy were a Democrat you'd be all over him like a fly on shit.

Typical Neocon reaction. "Better be a hardass about a sensitive topic." "This politician is on my team, I better support him and point the finger at the other team when he's called out."

I'm getting ready for work and don't have time right now to respond about my previous post. I felt Akin's statement was a minor thing by a lone politician. Even if he was a Democrat I would have felt this same way. I wouldn't have called for any punishment for him. Just expose his wrong belief and move on.

This post has been edited by Mark.: 11 March 2014 - 03:58 AM

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#45

I'm not an American but I have to throw my 2 cents in:

View PostMark., on 11 March 2014 - 03:56 AM, said:

I'm getting ready for work and don't have time right now to respond about my previous post. I felt Akin's statement was a minor thing by a lone politician. Even if he was a Democrat I would have felt this same way. I wouldn't have called for any punishment for him. Just expose his wrong belief and move on.

He should be punished by being disallowed from any kind of position of power whatsoever. When people like that are still free to roam around and become politicians, it means the bar is incredibly low and who wants a low bar for a position that effectively places control of a lot of people's livelihoods in your hands? We have a similar problem in England where many of the conservative politicians are out of touch at best and are either willfully negligent/malicious or simply not intelligent enough to think their actions through properly. Both are fairly terrifying when they control what goes on in the country.
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User is offline   MetroidJunkie 

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#46

I never said we should put up with that kind of reckless statement but don't you think a time should come where he can be forgiven if he truly repented of his ignorance? And, no, I wouldn't have treated it differently among parties. My problem with many politicians is they don't fess up and take responsibility for their stupid moments, they just point the finger at others. When the Bay of Pigs was botched, John F Kennedy atleast had the stones to look the American people in the eye and apologize, and they forgave him. It takes a real man to admit when you screwed up, and a child to just find other people to blame.
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#47

The rape and abortion issues are tricky political business. I take a libertarian view on it...leave it to the states. Personally, I think abortion should be allowed in the case of rape. I'm not really opposed to abortion anyway.

Neither party has much to do with those subjects on a federal level since they are primarily states issues. But they are also WEDGE ISSUES. So when the political season heats up, the media will inject these subjects to get the cat fights going, even though the issues are not even dealt with on a federal level. I hate it when those issues and religion are injected to debates, when the real subjects should be wars and nation building, foreign aid, tax codes and immigration.

View PostAlan, on 10 March 2014 - 09:44 AM, said:



YFW the Tea Party is also the establishment. "You thought this was a real grassroots movement? NOPE! Just Dave and Charles Koch with another one of our lifelike astroturf movements."

Since the Teaparty is hundreds of different sub groups with no one leader, the corporations are frustrated trying to figure out who to pay. It seems the tea party cannot be co-opted. With that said, it is true that the Koch's have donated money to a few sub-groups...and those groups DID NOT change their views. Know why? Charles and David Koch are libertarians. They actually agree with the tea party!

Nice try to the liberals trying to convince us that the tea party isn't grass roots, but it wont work. You got tea party members showing up at meets and protests wearing colonial uniforms, complete with stockings and white wigs. You cant pay people enough to do that! That comes from true belief in the constitutional philosophy.

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This post has been edited by Blue Lightning: 11 March 2014 - 08:29 AM

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User is online   Fox 

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#48

I support abortion before a functional brain exists. I don't really see a logical reason for why rape would make different whenever abortion is allowed or not.

This post has been edited by Fox: 11 March 2014 - 08:21 AM

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#49

View PostBlue Lightning, on 11 March 2014 - 08:16 AM, said:

You got tea party members showing up at meets and protests wearing colonial uniforms, complete with stockings and white wigs. You cant pay people enough to do that! That comes from true belief in the constitutional philosophy.


Belief in constitutional philosophy is wearing wigs and stockings?

Interesting. I'm not sure if I can trust the sanity of these constitutional philosophers, let alone putting them in control of my government.

But if they just want to stand out there all day in said uniforms, I'd be okay with that. I would pay them.

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This post has been edited by Comrade Major: 11 March 2014 - 08:41 AM

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#50

View PostFox, on 11 March 2014 - 08:21 AM, said:

I support abortion before a functional brain exists. I don't really see a logical reason for why rape would make different whenever abortion is allowed or not.

this

on the subject of rape, institute proper deterrents:
the rapist has to eat the aborted fetus raw and have their testicles smashed one at a time with a sledgehammer (no anesthesia)
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User is offline   MetroidJunkie 

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#51

But, if the decision of whether it's okay to kill someone rested on them having a functioning brain, then most voters would fall under the 'can be killed legally' category.
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User is offline   Inspector Lagomorf 

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#52

View PostMetroidJunkie, on 11 March 2014 - 10:33 AM, said:

But, if the decision of whether it's okay to kill someone rested on them having a functioning brain, then most voters would fall under the 'can be killed legally' category.


Nice to see you have faith in democracy.

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User is offline   Jimmy 

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#53

View PostAlan, on 11 March 2014 - 02:52 AM, said:

Politicians are psychopaths hiding behind the mask of humanity. These are the same people who fight every day to disenfranchise the working class by defunding public services left and right in an attempt to acquire "fiscal responsibility and efficiency" (despite their proven track record of standing for anything but) and to destroy civil liberties and basic human rights under the banner of patriotism.

I was watching a video the other day by Davis M.J. Aurini (this guy is edgy as fuck) in which he brought up a good point about the people in control, the supposed "Illuminati". Everyone assumes these people have well-thought out plans with horrible implications. But they are psychopaths, and this brings to the surface a far more terrifying idea; There is no plan. These are people flying by the seat of their pants, they're constantly pulling strings, but they don't really have an end-game. That's why things are such a mess. There is no intention except for "at this moment, this is my plan" and it's changing every two or three days. They only have an agenda so that other people will follow them.

View PostJames, on 11 March 2014 - 05:08 AM, said:

He should be punished by being disallowed from any kind of position of power whatsoever. When people like that are still free to roam around and become politicians, it means the bar is incredibly low and who wants a low bar for a position that effectively places control of a lot of people's livelihoods in your hands? We have a similar problem in England where many of the conservative politicians are out of touch at best and are either willfully negligent/malicious or simply not intelligent enough to think their actions through properly. Both are fairly terrifying when they control what goes on in the country.

Being disallowed? How? As in "We've decided you can't do this anymore forever."? No. If you mean the people thinking "Yeah, I'm not voting for this moron." then yeah. But barring someone from politics is un-American. You can bar them with your votes.

View PostMetroidJunkie, on 11 March 2014 - 10:33 AM, said:

But, if the decision of whether it's okay to kill someone rested on them having a functioning brain, then most voters would fall under the 'can be killed legally' category.

That doesn't sound so bad, really.

So many asses, so little time. Only a tight one can stop me on the dime. I'm a lover of every kind. The best surprises always sneak up from behind. I'm an Ass-man.

This post has been edited by Jimmy: 11 March 2014 - 11:06 AM

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User is offline   Alan 

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#54

View PostBlue Lightning, on 11 March 2014 - 08:16 AM, said:

Since the Teaparty is hundreds of different sub groups with no one leader, the corporations are frustrated trying to figure out who to pay. It seems the tea party cannot be co-opted. With that said, it is true that the Koch's have donated money to a few sub-groups...and those groups DID NOT change their views. Know why? Charles and David Koch are libertarians. They actually agree with the tea party!


No, the Tea Party isn't a libertarian group, which is tricky to understand. The Tea Party is the right-wing's attempt to run their hand up the thigh of libertarianism. Whenever the libertards look at who's feeling them up, they shrink away and say it was that filthy liberal that just wants to smoke weed.

The reason the conservatards want to mimic the libertardians is because the libtertardians have all the fiscal denial and delusion they've been championing for years, and all the popular support they wish they could get. Where the conservatards have failed since the chokehold of Reaganomics is that they can't put a silver lining on anything to save their lives (hardly surprising from the "party of no"). Libertardians have a much easier time making people believe that if they really wanted to they could just will themselves into wealth. You just have to be willing to disregard things like the tragedy of the commons, inelastic demand, finite wealth supply, zero velocity money and the mere existence of externalities.

View PostBlue Lightning, on 11 March 2014 - 08:16 AM, said:

Nice try to the liberals trying to convince us that the tea party isn't grass roots, but it wont work.


Posted Image

The whole point of calling something a grassroots movement is that it's entirely funded and supported by the money of the people in the movement. The Tea Party is almost entirely funded by Americans for Prosperity and FreedomWorks (which incidentally were both part of one of the Koch bros. giant think tanks in the 80s who wanted to prevent tobacco reform), and those organizations also manage dozens of social networking pages and events. Not to mention that the Kochs themselves frequently show up to Tea Party events.

Sure, you can continue to not believe it, but you'll still be wrong.

View PostBlue Lightning, on 11 March 2014 - 08:16 AM, said:

You got tea party members showing up at meets and protests wearing colonial uniforms, complete with stockings and white wigs. You cant pay people enough to do that! That comes from true belief in the constitutional philosophy.


The people that do that are what can clinically be described as pawns; people without a strong enough will on their own, but have found a means to vent that 'tard rage they've felt their whole life - and it happens to be hella convenient for the people in charge.

Abstraksjon: når man tror at noe gjør det enklere, men fører til at det blir komplisert.

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#55

View PostAlan, on 11 March 2014 - 11:24 AM, said:

people without a strong enough will on their own, but have found a means to vent that 'tard rage they've felt their whole life

Upvote for "'tard rage".
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#56

View PostAlan, on 11 March 2014 - 11:24 AM, said:

The Tea Party is almost entirely funded by Americans for Prosperity and FreedomWorks (which incidentally were both part of one of the Koch bros. giant think tanks in the 80s who wanted to prevent tobacco reform)

Slightly off topic, but why in the fuck do I have to import clove cigarettes? Tobacco reform; So progressive!

So many asses, so little time. Only a tight one can stop me on the dime. I'm a lover of every kind. The best surprises always sneak up from behind. I'm an Ass-man.
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User is offline   MetroidJunkie 

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#57

View PostComrade Major, on 11 March 2014 - 10:34 AM, said:

Nice to see you have faith in democracy.


Well, first of all, America isn't a democracy, the founding fathers actually despised that kind of government. Mob rule means minorities get no rights. Second, polls generally indicate that most people are dangerously misinformed. A large chunk don't know Joe Biden is our vice president.



Also, the tea party doesn't revolve around certain people and most of the sections ARE grass root. Corporations tying onto the name don't mean that there aren't many segments who call themselves tea partiers and that are entirely community driven.

This post has been edited by MetroidJunkie: 11 March 2014 - 01:46 PM

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View PostMetroidJunkie, on 11 March 2014 - 01:41 PM, said:

Well, first of all, America isn't a democracy, the founding fathers actually despised that kind of government. Mob rule means minorities get no rights. Second, polls generally indicate that most people are dangerously misinformed.

Actually, the mob is typically the formation of all the minorities attempting to overthrow those in control. Democracy is dangerous to power and order first and foremost. But yeah, America is a democratic republic. Which isn't a much better system as we've learned. Also, polls? Seriously, dude? You can prove anything you want with a poll. It's the most unreliable source of information there is.

View PostMetroidJunkie, on 11 March 2014 - 01:41 PM, said:

Also, the tea party doesn't revolve around certain people and most of the sections ARE grass root. Corporations tying onto the name don't mean that there aren't many segments who call themselves tea partiers and that are entirely community driven.

This is called being a shill.

So many asses, so little time. Only a tight one can stop me on the dime. I'm a lover of every kind. The best surprises always sneak up from behind. I'm an Ass-man.
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User is offline   Alan 

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#59

I used to work with the leader of a Tea Party chapter and have seen his events. Basically a bunch of delusional 50+ white guys in nice cars and suits thinking Obama's gon' take their guns and money away, and the less prosperous had no idea they were voting against their own livelihoods.

Regardless, still not grassroots. :wub:

Abstraksjon: når man tror at noe gjør det enklere, men fører til at det blir komplisert.

"A celibate clergy is an especially good idea as it eliminates any genetic tendencies towards fanaticism."
-Carl Sagan

This post has been edited by Alan: 11 March 2014 - 02:57 PM

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#60

Alan your completely off base about the tea party. It is indeed a grassroots movement. I know plenty of tea partiers here, and none of them have been paid by anyone, or directed by another group or the GOP. It is totally spontaneous. These people are passionate about the Constitution and the founders, the Madison papers, and the bill of rights. The one's I know are mad about the debt, the constant spending and the constant growing of government. They want REAL change. They are housewives, guys that work at the mill, truck drivers and so on. Lot of college kids too I noticed...from the Ron Paul/ Rand Paul movement no doubt.

This got started in 2007 at Ron Paul rallies but didn't have a name yet...the idea of a lesser federal control and more power to the individual. It has a libertarian flavor to it. In 2009 CNBC's Rick Santelli (during a famous rant heard round the world in Chicago) coined the phrase "tea party". He coined the phrase after venting anger about taxpayers having to bailout homeowners that had to default, suggesting that the brokers on the trading floor meet and have a "Tea Party", and then to "throw their stocks into lake Michigan". This sent the traders into a massive cheer.

The Tea Party was born.

But Tea (before it had a name) has been fighting the establishment since 2007, when Ron Paul was arguing at the debates against all the other GOP members. The 2010 pure OWNAGE election by the republicans over the democrats (biggest landslide since 1937) gave the Tea national recognition, as not only democrats, but also many old RINO's were ousted in favor of a more libertarian, constitutional candidate. This fought has been going on long now, but the establishment, even with all their money, is losing ground. And they know it.


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This post has been edited by Blue Lightning: 11 March 2014 - 04:14 PM

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