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CBP Episode 'Duke Hard'  "One building, one map(per) per floor, small maps"

User is offline   Helixhorned 

  • EDuke32 Senior Developer

#241

View PostMetHy, on 18 February 2014 - 07:29 AM, said:

About the polymost?classic? question:
I will completely honest with you, I guess I haven't followed eduke's technical stuff at all because I had no idea polymost and classic had such important differences. Until now I thought eduke32's setting called 'software' was classic look.

Well yes, "software mode" is pretty much synonymous with classic, plus the features and fixes without which it would be a pain to run nowadays -- proper widescreen support comes to mind, for example. While there are the obvious differences between classic and Polymost, these two renderers share CG-algorithmic ideas. Polymer on the other hand is rewritten from the ground up.
What makes you draw a distinction between 'software' and 'classic'?

Quote

I had no idea some sprite-stuff could work in polymost and not in classic

Actually, they would often render things very similarly, but the GL mode has the depth buffer at its disposal. This may be the main reason why some glitches occuring in classic are "hidden" in Polymost. (Which does not mean that they're not there by the way; translucency and/or see-through texels may expose them.)

Quote

(the only difference I knew is that you can shade sprites independantly from the ceiling/floor's shade in eduke32

I have to admit that I forgot how that can be toggled even if I recall writing it myself. :D Was that a cstat bit or something else? I think it's more of a game-side feature though.

Quote

Just like I had no idea polymer could hide SOS view glitches (the glitches you get when the player sees 2 floors at once in classic mode) until today.

That wording is a bit unfortunate. Polymer doesn't "hide" these glitches, Polymer is simply capable of rendering such scenes correctly in the first place.
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User is offline   MetHy 

#242

View PostHelixhorned, on 18 February 2014 - 11:03 AM, said:

What makes you draw a distinction between 'software' and 'classic'?


When I mean classic, I mean it would look exactly the same in original dos duke3D. For example, those sprites you can shade independantly from the ceiling shade value (or was it floor shade value? i can't even remember) would look different in 'software polymost' in eduke32 compared to in the original dos version. And according to Daedolon's post about his map there are other things like this though to be honest I don't know what (which is why I didn't clarifiy in the OP).

This post has been edited by MetHy: 18 February 2014 - 11:33 AM

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User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#243

toyed with the template
laid out the basic floor plan, the supplies and equipment needed, have a general idea of the enemies, and how to navigate from point A to point B

i can do it, but it may take a couple weeks max to finish cause it's been so long since i've mapped (-maybe a little sooner depending on how much time i get to plug away at it each day)

i am getting a late start, so, can you wait that long?

This post has been edited by Forge: 18 February 2014 - 01:39 PM

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User is offline   MetHy 

#244

Great! Added you to the OP. I doubt many mappers will have their maps done in two weeks, including me.

What theme are you making?

This post has been edited by MetHy: 18 February 2014 - 01:57 PM

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User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#245

penthouse apartment
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User is offline   Micky C 

  • Honored Donor

#246

Quote

Well I made it pretty clear I wanted to do the secret map


I was under the impression that you were too busy for it. In that case, I'll send you what I've done with the elevator door, along with my car, and a fixed version of my map.
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User is online   Paul B 

#247

View PostForge, on 18 February 2014 - 01:38 PM, said:


i am getting a late start, so, can you wait that long?



Forge you won't be holding up the show and we can wait for you!
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User is offline   Jblade 

#248

As much as I'd love to see this finished ASAP, with the Beach CBP imminent we can afford to keep working on this for longer (well I say 'we', I've long done my part :D)
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User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#249

just when i thought nothing was going on, my calendar is starting to fill up.
i still plan on knocking this out, but it may be closer to the two week mark or just a hair beyond
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User is offline   Daedolon 

  • Ancient Blood God

#250

If you had clear idea of the basic architecture, do that when you have the most time, then fill in the details every now and then.

At least to me, detailing is faster than figuring out good architecture.
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User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#251

it's been awhile so thanks for the advice.

i'm better at slamming in the basic architecture fairly quickly compared to detailing, so that's not really the issue

i have an idea of what i want to build and where it goes, but since i'm using a pre-fab map template, i have to make sure everything "fits" where i want to put it

i also have a habit of forgetting what i was doing/missing stuff/etc. if i jump around too much
this kinda restricts me to doing one room at a time, though if i do get an idea i'll pop over to a new location and slap something together to remind me later what i wanted to do.
'bout the only thing i can do outside the immediate area i'm working on is to drop in the textures sets i want to use

unless something major happens, i'll be finished in the time i said i would be

i don't know 'bout building a car though. probably just steal a vehicle out of one of my maps and let MetHy figure out what to do with it.

This post has been edited by Forge: 19 February 2014 - 12:35 PM

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User is offline   MetHy 

#252

Yes that's fine, anybody can take a vehicule from another of his maps.
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User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#253

ugh. it's taken me about two and a half days (roughly four hours just to make this room) which is maybe 10% of the map

i can't remember where any of the textures or sound files are, i barely recall the most basic SEs, and this shit looks like some noob crap from '97

i'll finish this disaster, but you may want to make it one of the first maps after the lobby so things can only improve from that point on.

http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s442/xforge/capt0000.jpg
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User is online   Paul B 

#254

Forge I think it looks most excellent! I like how you've detailed the room with interesting sprite selections definitely far from bland that's just nothing but eye candy.

This post has been edited by Paul B: 21 February 2014 - 11:54 PM

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User is online   Hendricks266 

  • Weaponized Autism

  #255

I love the upside-down desklamp as a chandelier.

Progress Report:

I have chosen my MIDI.
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User is offline   Micky C 

  • Honored Donor

#256

View PostMetHy, on 19 February 2014 - 12:41 PM, said:

Yes that's fine, anybody can take a vehicule from another of his maps.


C'est "vehicle". Tu es en retard!


View PostForge, on 21 February 2014 - 09:52 PM, said:

this shit looks like some noob crap from '97


Don't exaggerate Forge, that looks great. Don't make me dig up actual '97 noob stuff for comparison :dukeaffirmative:
Although that door looks a little wide.

4 hours isn't too bad if you went into mapster without a good vision of what you want to do, and were figuring out what details to put where, as you went along. Of course being rusty with the textures doesn't help. IMO choosing textures is one of the major time consumers of mapping.

View PostHendricks266, on 21 February 2014 - 11:58 PM, said:

I love the upside-down desklamp as a chandelier.

Progress Report:

I have chosen my MIDI.


Well as long as you don't cheat; you're meant to make something from scratch for this CBP and not adapt another map you've already done, such as this one.
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User is online   Paul B 

#257

Just a progress update for the project.

I'm finished my part suckers! HAHA! Now I can relax for a while and catch up on some much needed sleep!
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User is offline   MetHy 

#258

View PostForge, on 21 February 2014 - 09:52 PM, said:

ugh. it's taken me about two and a half days (roughly four hours just to make this room) which is maybe 10% of the map

i can't remember where any of the textures or sound files are, i barely recall the most basic SEs, and this shit looks like some noob crap from '97

i'll finish this disaster, but you may want to make it one of the first maps after the lobby so things can only improve from that point on.



I think the only two things that look bad is the wide door (like Micky C noticed) and the glasses you use for the aquarium and windows. I've always hated those, they look so awful, they stick out so much they ruin the whole place imo.
I always use texture #758 or #3397 for windows, then make them transparent with T (#758 works nice with different palettes).
Alternatively you could also use textures which aren't window textures by themselves but which have windows in them, like #3384 or #3395. If the rest of the texture (what's not a window, what's around it) bothers you, you can make a wall and turn it into a mask wall with the M key (on qwerty keyboards it's M I believe, the same thing used to make forcefield or mirrors etc), apply the texture on the mask wall and stretch it so that only the window can be seen. Transparency also works on mask walls which is nice.

Protip : this maskwall thing also works nice if you need to have several sprites in one place. If you can make one of the two sprites be a maskwall (sometimes it's possible depending on what you want to do), it avoids the typical sprite visuals glitches (like, one sprite suddenly going behind the other one and vice versa).

This post has been edited by MetHy: 22 February 2014 - 06:07 AM

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User is online   TerminX 

  • el fundador

  #259

View PostHelixhorned, on 18 February 2014 - 11:03 AM, said:

I have to admit that I forgot how that can be toggled even if I recall writing it myself. :dukeaffirmative: Was that a cstat bit or something else? I think it's more of a game-side feature though.

I thought he was talking about spritenoshade. I don't remember if it was in the first version of EDuke32 or not, but it was first documented only a few months after the wiki's creation.
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User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#260

you people have no taste, but thanks for the compliments anyways

that "wide" door is a free standing sprite blocking the view into the next room which is still texture 0 - if you look you can see it

the aquarium glass is masked wall, i put a pal on it to make it stand out from the windows behind it, but it looks like doodoo.
i'll probably take your advice and change the texture - it should only take an hour to find the one i'm looking for :dukeaffirmative:
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User is online   TerminX 

  • el fundador

  #261

View PostMetHy, on 22 February 2014 - 06:04 AM, said:

Protip : this maskwall thing also works nice if you need to have several sprites in one place. If you can make one of the two sprites be a maskwall (sometimes it's possible depending on what you want to do), it avoids the typical sprite visuals glitches (like, one sprite suddenly going behind the other one and vice versa).

I'm no mapper, but can't this be achieved with a wall aligned sprite?
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User is offline   Micky C 

  • Honored Donor

#262

There can still be ugly clipping issues in classic though with wall aligned sprites, but masked walls tend to play nice most of the time.
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User is offline   Helixhorned 

  • EDuke32 Senior Developer

#263

View PostTerminX, on 22 February 2014 - 06:55 AM, said:

I thought he was talking about spritenoshade. I don't remember if it was in the first version of EDuke32 or not, but it was first documented only a few months after the wiki's creation.

I have found it now, it's sprite[].cstat bit 2048 which I introduced in r1866. It does the same thing as SPRITE_NOSHADE. Apparently, it's a pretty useful feature, as evidenced by the fact that in 2012 and 2013, there are about 6--9 maps having such sprites. In hindsight, I'm not so happy about a cstat bit having a meaning for the game (as opposed to the engine), but I guess that was the only way to make it toggleable in the editor.

View PostMetHy, on 18 February 2014 - 11:31 AM, said:

When I mean classic, I mean it would look exactly the same in original dos duke3D. For example, those sprites you can shade independantly from the ceiling shade value (or was it floor shade value? i can't even remember) would look different in 'software polymost' in eduke32 compared to in the original dos version.

The exact way sprites take over the shade is this if bit 2048 is clear:
- if the ceiling is parallaxed, take on its shade
- otherwise, take on the the floor's shade.

What's "Software Polymost"? There used to be a rendmode 2 which, IIRC, emulated the depth buffer in software, but nowadays there's only one Polymost, so no additional qualification is needed. Also, bit 2048 doesn't pass as a difference to how the original Duke3D looked: you have the choice of using that feature or not. (OK, you need to know that it is an EDuke32-specific feature first. Now you do, though.)
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User is online   Paul B 

#264

Since i'm not artistically gifted, instead of me designing a vehicle, or ripping one from one of Gambini's maps can my parking stall just be vacant with my name on the stall? I can be missing in action? =D If not i'll toy around with something. At worst I might just make a snack machine on wheels as my vehicle. Practical but a bit boxy.


Is there a certain floor height you'd like the vehicles to start at?

This post has been edited by Paul B: 22 February 2014 - 11:03 AM

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User is offline   Daedolon 

  • Ancient Blood God

#265

Yeah that's the idea, you can have a vacant lot or even a skateboard (I think someone's doing that already? lol).

The height really doesn't matter since you can move it easily, but I'm assuming the maximum height is the same height as Cage's template.

What I worry about is the parking lot sizes, a lot of people are making different kinds of cars and mine is kind of huge, it needs a 2048 x 4096 area to fit in, I think Cage's was something close to that as well, too.
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User is offline   MetHy 

#266

Don't worry about the size of the vehicules, as long as it's realisticly sized with Duke's scale. I'll manage with the lots when making the map.

As for the height, just make it inside cage's template (or at the same height). Like Daedolon said it's no trouble to change it anyway.

This post has been edited by MetHy: 22 February 2014 - 11:52 AM

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User is offline   MetHy 

#267

So I was thinking about the episode map order. You guys were talking about a randomizer order... I thought it's a better idea to have a logical order so I'll do that.

However, do you guys think it would be cool if the player got to unlock the randomizer mod as an extra episode or something once he's beat the episode? That would be really great for replay value. Would that be possible somehow? If needed we could provide the right eduke32 executable with the episode download.

I think within the randomizer, 2 maps should never be randomized though : the lobby/first floor map should always be first and the boss rooftop map should be always be last. Well, I guess the first map could be randomized as well but if that's the case it would feel a bit odd but then again it's a bonus mod.
There is however one big issue with the randomizer idea : the secret map. The secret has to be accessible from the last map before the boss map, because it's ending will lead to the rooftop boss fight map. If the randomizer is made, do you think it would be possible to make it so that the secret map leads to 'any map that hasn't been played yet' ?
The other alternative would be to make it so that it's always POTENTIALLY accessible from the last map before the boss, but, unless one builds a potential entrance to the secret map in EVERY map and that somehow that entrance only shows up WHEN that map is currently the last one before the boss, I don't see how that's possible, and that sounds like a lot more trouble than the first solution.

What do you guys think? Would anyone be able to code that?

Also, what do you guys think of letting the player play any map in any order he wants through the 'usermap' section of the episode? I think that's be good if a player somehow gets stuck or gets disgusted by a map and doesn't want to finish it. Also like this, no mapper can complain about how he doesn't like the order in which his map is played within the episode.
Should it be accessible from the start or be unlocked after beating the episode as well? Having it from the start sounds good to me. For replay value the player will unlock the randomizer anyway.

This post has been edited by MetHy: 22 February 2014 - 12:34 PM

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User is offline   Daedolon 

  • Ancient Blood God

#268

I thought the idea was for the secret map to always lead to the boss fight and not another map?

I don't even know if you can change the map order in CON since it's applied to the pre-game variables iirc? I've never fiddled around with it. But it's super easy to count how many maps you have beaten, then you can just check if the map you're on is the second last one, and you can automatically make the exit be the secret exit. Though I guess it would not make too much sense unless there's a check made (with what variables?) that triggers the secret exit to appear.

This post has been edited by Daedolon: 22 February 2014 - 12:27 PM

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User is offline   MetHy 

#269

That's the idea, that's how it's going to be in the 'normal' order of the episode.
But the problem is that, the secret map is accessible from one map. So if the randomizer mod is made, let's say the player randomly gets this map at the start of the episode, then gets to the secret map. Now his next map will be the boss map and that will make him skip everything else which sucks a lot.

Which is why, contrary to the normal way, within the randomizer mod, the secret map should work like any other map and lead to 'any map that hasn't been played yet (except the boss map)'. The entrance to the secret map will remain the same though. I know it doesn't make sense becuse the player reactivates the elevator in the secret map but we'll have to deal with that. It's a bonus mod anyway.

View PostDaedolon, on 22 February 2014 - 12:24 PM, said:

I thought the idea was for the secret map to always lead to the boss fight and not another map?

I don't even know if you can change the map order in CON since it's applied to the pre-game variables iirc? I've never fiddled around with it. But it's super easy to count how many maps you have beaten, then you can just check if the map you're on is the second last one, and you can automatically make the exit be the secret exit. Though I guess it would not make too much sense unless there's a check made (with what variables?) that triggers the secret exit to appear.


I don't think that would work, the secret map should remain a secret map even within the randomizer mod imo because its entrance will be different than any other map (probably through a vent, in any case, not through the stairs), so it would be odd to have the player go up stairs and suddenly for once find himself within vents.
I know the elevator thing would already fuck things up but it's still plausible Dukes somehow only wants to use that elevator to a random floor rather than to the rooftop directly. The staircase->vents thing though would suck.

Unless we really don't give a shit because it's a randomizer bonus mod anyway and make the secret map NOT a secret map and make it work like any other map... It will remain a secret within the normal episode order anyway.

This post has been edited by MetHy: 22 February 2014 - 12:33 PM

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User is offline   Daedolon 

  • Ancient Blood God

#270

I thought you enable the elevator in the secret map, so having it disabled in the next map again would make no sense.
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