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"Cutting is shipping"

User is offline   Jamin 

#31

Hey guys, Long time troller (since you started) haven't posted in years. Kaisersore may remember me.

Been discouraged for a while and just watching but it is getting closer.

I may be able to shed a theory on the "cutting is shipping" question.

First, PC to Xbox 360 is an easy port. (PS3 is a rewrite) Not a big deal to port and the vast majority of the market is consoles. There will be an Xbox 360 game probably released a few days before because it is even easier to make it downloadable. This is a good thing because most of the money is in console sales and that will make them all truly rich, this will give them all the money they may need for expansion or the next fifteen year cycle for the NEXT Duke.

OK, My very limited understanding on Cutting. Discs are money. You want to keep them to a minimum. If you have 4.9 gigs worth of data, you don't send a second DVD with .2 gigs on it. So if after applying the textures to all the maps, they may have found they are over the number of discs they want to ship or size of the game they have targeted. (Remember, they may also have self imposed restrictions on the overall size because they will be looking at a large downloading audience) One last thought. Have you ever heard a joke that you thought was funny only to tell it and have it fall flat. It may be that they are making some of the first runs through on most levels because they have just gotten textures applied and some gags work and are funny and witty, and some fall flat. So Cut.

So yes, some of you are right, they probably, (and I say probably because I don't know) are cutting levels, pieces of levels or other details in order to make it "fit". That should mean that they are in the home stretch. No I am not going to make a guess on when. I have been wrong for ten years so I don't think I have any idea now.

Thanks, Keep fire burning.
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User is offline   kaisersoze 

  • Honored Donor

#32

View PostJamin, on Jan 14 2009, 01:19 PM, said:

Hey guys, Long time troller (since you started) haven't posted in years. Kaisersore may remember me.

Been discouraged for a while and just watching but it is getting closer.

I may be able to shed a theory on the "cutting is shipping" question.

First, PC to Xbox 360 is an easy port. (PS3 is a rewrite) Not a big deal to port and the vast majority of the market is consoles. There will be an Xbox 360 game probably released a few days before because it is even easier to make it downloadable. This is a good thing because most of the money is in console sales and that will make them all truly rich, this will give them all the money they may need for expansion or the next fifteen year cycle for the NEXT Duke.

OK, My very limited understanding on Cutting. Discs are money. You want to keep them to a minimum. If you have 4.9 gigs worth of data, you don't send a second DVD with .2 gigs on it. So if after applying the textures to all the maps, they may have found they are over the number of discs they want to ship or size of the game they have targeted. (Remember, they may also have self imposed restrictions on the overall size because they will be looking at a large downloading audience) One last thought. Have you ever heard a joke that you thought was funny only to tell it and have it fall flat. It may be that they are making some of the first runs through on most levels because they have just gotten textures applied and some gags work and are funny and witty, and some fall flat. So Cut.

So yes, some of you are right, they probably, (and I say probably because I don't know) are cutting levels, pieces of levels or other details in order to make it "fit". That should mean that they are in the home stretch. No I am not going to make a guess on when. I have been wrong for ten years so I don't think I have any idea now.

Thanks, Keep fire burning.


Nice to see you again Jamin! And you make some good points.
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User is offline   peoplessi 

  • Honored Donor

#33

Only thing is, that DVD takes 8.54GB of data, but I doubt that levels would be cut due size. You don't save a lot by removing geometry from levels. Texture compression, and compression of data overall is the key, but I see where you are getting at Jamin.
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User is offline   Jamin 

#34

Spaced out on the DL disc. Glad you still see what I was trying to say. After they add everything in and then run it through compression, they may find they have to trim to make it into their guide lines on size.

That leads to another question. Of recent games, (including Xbox 360) What is the maximum number of discs (DL DVD) that anyone has seen a game come on. Ok, what is the max of any type of disc. Interesting.

Jamin.
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User is offline   Montykoro 

#35

GTA IV uses DVD-DL and uses 2...so....? cutting is... Release the "Done" part...cut the "when is done"... and presto DNF is Done...
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User is offline   zchri9 

  • Honored Donor

#36

Isnt Rage meant to come on 2 DVD's when its released?
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User is offline   rockmx8 

#37

 

View Postkaisersoze, on Jan 14 2009, 03:08 PM, said:

Nice to see you again Jamin! And you make some good points.


Welcome to the Duke4 Boards Jamin, it's an honor to meet you as well!! :)
I'm Rockmankuzu8 maybe you heard of me as one of the most Enthusiastic Postive DNF Fans in the world alongside Nukemdave... :)

Agreed you made some good points indeed. Well no matter what we will get DNF most likely this year with a PC, 360 and PS3 release simulataneously or a few days after. There's a high chance they will release the 360 and PC version first, then the PS3. However judging from George's Comment here, it maybe possible to do all 3 at one release day. :D

http://www.shacknews...n.x?id=18767174

We should be getting a Trailer (and a demo too possibly) before Summer for sure now it seems... :D

This post has been edited by rockmx8: 14 January 2009 - 03:49 PM

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User is offline   zchri9 

  • Honored Donor

#38

You mean American summer or Australian summer? =D
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#39

View PostMicki!, on Jan 14 2009, 09:45 AM, said:

Not that it matters much anyways, regardless, i am still sure there is at LEAST a 360 version on its way, along with the PC version...
Why is this relevant to "Cutting is Shipping" though..? This is more of a platform discussion rather than the original topic guys :)


Well, I thought I would give my two cents on the 360 matter. :) Now on topic: I think they just cutting the semi implemented, unnecessary features to just finally release the game. They probably had alot of ideas that they would have liked to put put in the game but realized that it would take another two years to complete. All that means is we wont get the pleasure of going one on one with the Octa-Avenger. (Sorry Micki!)


Posted Image
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User is offline   Jamin 

#40

Thanks for the warm welcome. I have become familiar with most on this board over time. I wrote on the 3DR boards and I will say it again, 3DR should realize that they have a core group of the most faithfull fans of any game, ever. It is witnessed by everyone here. I believe they should give something special to the faithfull, special level, art, making of vid, I dont know, something.

Ok back on topic, I agree, no matter where you are, it should be in six months or so. Cuttin with a chainsaw means they are chopping things out hard and fast, and that means they must be in the home stretch.

I think they are trying to get it down to 1 DVD. Thoughts?

I am not sold that there will be a PS3. Too much development involved.
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User is offline   Yatta 

  • Pizza Lawyer

  #41

Yeah, no PS3 version. They'd be lucky if they can even port it to the 360. Shipping on two DVDs isn't so bad--id Software is doing it with Rage, as Zach mentioned.

Also check this out:

Quote

06/12/05 05:43 AM

How big is the current build of DNF?

8 gigs. We still haven't trimmed some bloat from it, but we're also not done yet.


I don't think the size is the concern here. They're just trying to tie the game together so it can ship.
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User is offline   Jamin 

#42

That was 2005, you may be right because if they wee trimming for size it would be because it was over 17 gigs !!! and didnt want to go to three discs. I cant see it being the same size as it was in 2005. It must be bigger.
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User is offline   Kathy 

#43

View PostMicki!, on Jan 14 2009, 08:45 PM, said:

But just because 3DR were looking for 360 coders, it shouldn't automatically be assumed it's for DNF, they might have other internal projects that we haven't heard of yet...
Or maybe, you know... it's for both, unannounced projects and DNF...


They have like 40 people in company. They tried doing several projects internal and failed miserably. AFAIK, since then they said they won't be doing internal more than one project.

Jamin said:

OK, My very limited understanding on Cutting. Discs are money. You want to keep them to a minimum. If you have 4.9 gigs worth of data, you don't send a second DVD with .2 gigs on it. So if after applying the textures to all the maps, they may have found they are over the number of discs they want to ship or size of the game they have targeted. (Remember, they may also have self imposed restrictions on the overall size because they will be looking at a large downloading audience)


1. DVDs aren't that expensive in production.
2. People that download games most likely have a good speed. Besides, I don't know who in their right mind would cut down the game because it'd be too big for a download. Besides, big downloads never stopped those who played illegally. It's not an issue in any way.

This post has been edited by Lotan: 14 January 2009 - 07:26 PM

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User is offline   peoplessi 

  • Honored Donor

#44

Multiple projects, yes they did try that with Prey and DNF, didn't work out. That was due too small teams, and in a way you take away alot by dividing your effort. That proved to be a bad decision later on, but "miserably" is bit overstating it. Later on Prey was to become a good shooter with 3D Realms supervision.

Cuttings discs is money on Xbox 360. MS imposes certain penalties if you go over 1 DVD, that was discussed by John Carmack regarding Rage. Digital distribution, not only people that pirate.

Of course, it's been said all along that this "cutting" doesn't mean cutting the size only, it involves many things, one of them being the size.
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User is offline   Kathy 

#45

Well, they had two(?) versions of Prey and two versions of DNF. All four(or three) were scrapped. So...

P.S. I meant also a digital distribution.
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User is offline   Micki! 

  • Candy Consumptionist & Administrator

#46

View PostMindcrime:Nikki, on Jan 15 2009, 02:37 AM, said:

Well, I thought I would give my two cents on the 360 matter. :) Now on topic: I think they just cutting the semi implemented, unnecessary features to just finally release the game. They probably had alot of ideas that they would have liked to put put in the game but realized that it would take another two years to complete.


I am thinking somewhat the same thing about this whole matter...
Many games (if not all) go through such, and that's why revealing too much info about the games features and contents EARLY isn't a very good idea... It leasves fans greatly dissapointed, and and their expectations on the game that is otherwise very good (- that's a hypothetical statement here), will affect their opinion on the final product, because of said expectations...

or in short, they will think worse of it than it actually ended up being like, because it didn't end up being what they heard it would be...

Quote

All that means is we wont get the pleasure of going one on one with the Octa-Avenger. (Sorry Micki!)


Posted Image


When the game is out, and we hear what things they cut, i'm sure modders will try and implement it themselves... And i will personally get in touch with modders just to make the Octa-Avenger happen :)
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User is offline   kaisersoze 

  • Honored Donor

#47

8 gigs in 2005. I'd estimate it's at least doubled at a minimum by now so let's say 16 gigs worth of content. That's a lot to compress and I don't
know how well compression routines/software works to be frank. Then you have unknown variables like voiceover work and a possible musical score
so there's a ton of content they're dealing with or looking to "chainsaw".

I think they're probably look to get the game on 1 dual layer dvd which is around 8 gigs or so. Any additional dvds would probably be director's cut special
editions or commentary/blooper/development diary type extras.

Still waiting on word from George regarding having St. John in for voicework. That will be the big one folks.
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User is offline   Psyrgery 

#48

Even though Jon St. John were hired to do the voice Work I'm not sure he would tell anything about it.

Looking forward to it, though.
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User is offline   Parkar 

  • Honored Donor

#49

View Postpeoplessi, on Jan 15 2009, 06:36 AM, said:

Multiple projects, yes they did try that with Prey and DNF, didn't work out. That was due too small teams, and in a way you take away alot by dividing your effort. That proved to be a bad decision later on, but "miserably" is bit overstating it. Later on Prey was to become a good shooter with 3D Realms supervision.


I would call throwing away 2 builds of both of both Prey and DNF fail miserably. DNF only got on track way after they focused on only one internal game and Prey only became a reality once it was no longer an in house game.

View PostMicki!, on Jan 15 2009, 12:14 PM, said:

When the game is out, and we hear what things they cut, i'm sure modders will try and implement it themselves... And i will personally get in touch with modders just to make the Octa-Avenger happen :)


:)
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#50

of course Jon is in for voicework. If he isn't it would be blasphemy.

I too think they reached more than 2 Dual Layer DVDs by now for the actual game including Voicework. So they probably cut it to one DL DVD for the standard edition by kicking not working or not fully implemented stuff out and compressing the game to the max.
2 DL DVD's for the CE are their aim I guess, filling DVD 2 with bonus content like Kaiser mentioned.
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User is offline   peoplessi 

  • Honored Donor

#51

The build they have now has uncompressed stuff around, since textures are single biggest space hog, compressing them to Xbox 360 standards reduces the size a lot. Alot the textures I use, are over 5megabytes in size, if you reduce that to 1/100 it's a huge save. Just an example.
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User is offline   Jamin 

#52

If they are cutting because of size, and we have talked about there being other reasons, my thought is that they have taken an alpha of the game, running with extras, and compressed it to a shippable form. From that they have determined that it is too big. If they dont have a running alpha of the game complete now, then my thoughts of late summer release are way off.
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User is offline   Lead 

#53

View Postkaisersoze, on Jan 15 2009, 06:00 AM, said:

8 gigs in 2005. I'd estimate it's at least doubled at a minimum by now so let's say 16 gigs worth of content. That's a lot to compress and I don't
know how well compression routines/software works to be frank.


It depends on what was taking up the space.

If the bulk of that is textures, then if they double the resolution of a texture the file size quadruples, not doubles.

Although there's no knowing how far they went with upping the graphics, like if they on average doubled all the texture sizes which is what I am guessing you ares suggesting because I can't figure out how else you'd suddenly double disk usage like that. If 60% of the game was textures and they did do that, then you'd suddenly be up to 20gb.

When I gave it a shot, I was able to get some large 24bit textures I have to compress to like 7%.

If something like this is really the case then I wonder how many DVDs the 360 version would need? If there was a PS3 version I'd suppose you'd only need a single disc. Hopefully Georges "cutting" comment wouldn't refer to stripping the game of stuff simply to cram it on 1-2 DVDs so it could be an easy port to 360.
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#54

DNF on Blu-ray? Posted Image
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User is offline   zchri9 

  • Honored Donor

#55

Blu-Ray discs, yeah thats right blu-ray the true future of high definition and you know it!

This post has been edited by zchri9: 16 January 2009 - 12:08 AM

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User is offline   Parkar 

  • Honored Donor

#56

View Postpeoplessi, on Jan 15 2009, 08:52 PM, said:

The build they have now has uncompressed stuff around, since textures are single biggest space hog, compressing them to Xbox 360 standards reduces the size a lot. Alot the textures I use, are over 5megabytes in size, if you reduce that to 1/100 it's a huge save. Just an example.


I very much doubt they are using uncompressed textures in the development build. It's just so easy to just compress them when "importing" them.

The common way to work is have your source PSD(or what ever fortmat you work with) files which are then either directly imported to the engine format or go by a second step with say tga or png files.

I bet the source content which is the real uncompressed data is in the terra bytes rather then gigabytes.
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User is offline   Micki! 

  • Candy Consumptionist & Administrator

#57

View PostParkar, on Jan 15 2009, 05:59 PM, said:

:)


Yeah i was thinking of you there for a moment too :)
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User is offline   peoplessi 

  • Honored Donor

#58

Parkar, you are right there, I don't think that's the case either, but I doubt they will cut levels due space issues, since you don't save much by removing level geometry.
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User is offline   Betelgeuse 

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#59

View Postzchri9, on Jan 16 2009, 07:02 PM, said:

Blu-Ray discs, yeah thats right blu-ray the true future of high definition and you know it!


lol, i'm sure i have that voice clip on my hd somewhere... /searches
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#60

View PostBetelgeuse, on Jan 19 2009, 01:57 PM, said:

lol, i'm sure i have that voice clip on my hd somewhere... /searches

http://www.3drealms....e_on_hddvd.html
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