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Suicide  "Why not?"

Poll: Suicide (49 member(s) have cast votes)

Would you consider suicide as a possible solution to one's suffering?

  1. Yes (23 votes [46.94%])

    Percentage of vote: 46.94%

  2. No (26 votes [53.06%])

    Percentage of vote: 53.06%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#211

View PostKathy, on 09 March 2014 - 11:42 AM, said:

So are you suggesting to delude yourself?


When did I ever suggest that? I didn't say act like you're the most important thing in the universe but you should act like you were created for a reason and that your life matters in the eyes of the creator.
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User is offline   Kathy 

#212

View PostMetroidJunkie, on 09 March 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

When did I ever suggest that?

Just now.

Quote

act like you were created for a reason and that your life matters in the eyes of the creator

0

User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#213

leave religion out of it.
i'm religious, but not everyone believes in that.

you have to feel that you're important, but not just for you. If you believe you're the only one who finds any importance to your being alive, you lose purpose once you question that faith in yourself. Depression is a motherfucker when trying to decide your self-worth

somebody you probably haven't met yet is out there looking for you

This post has been edited by Forge: 09 March 2014 - 01:24 PM

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#214

I didn't bring up any religion, just that there's a creator, which the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of. It's hardly delusional to believe that the enormous complexity points to an intelligent mind, it takes far more faith to believe that it all occurred by chance. In any case, you're far more likely to believe your life is worthless if you believe your birth had absolutely no consequence and was just a random accident.
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User is offline   Kathy 

#215

View PostForge, on 09 March 2014 - 01:22 PM, said:

If you believe you're the only one who finds any importance to your being alive, you lose purpose once you question that faith in yourself.

You probably would still lose purpose even if you're not the only one.

Quote

somebody you probably haven't met yet is out there looking for you


0

User is offline   Hendricks266 

  • Weaponized Autism

  #216

View PostMetroidJunkie, on 09 March 2014 - 01:32 PM, said:

It's hardly delusional to believe that the enormous complexity points to an intelligent mind, it takes far more faith to believe that it all occurred by chance.

Not to derail this thread, but the watchmaker analogy exhibits both confirmation bias (we are only capable of observing our life-supporting world because it supports life in the first place, versus the many others that have no sentient beings to our knowledge) and the failure of human perception to properly comprehend timescales on the order of billions of years.
0

#217

View PostHendricks266, on 09 March 2014 - 01:37 PM, said:

Not to derail this thread, but the watchmaker analogy exhibits both confirmation bias (we are only capable of observing our life-supporting world because it supports life in the first place, versus the many others that have no sentient beings to our knowledge) and the failure of human perception to properly comprehend timescales on the order of billions of years.


Interesting that you talk about our
world supporting life. There are over a hundred constants that make it possible for the Earth to support life and they're fine tuned such that even a slight deviation in any one would effectively end life as we know it. The odds of any one planet in the universe achieving this randomly is 1 in 10 to the 138th power, and those are the odds of just one of them barring the necessary constants, not even going into the odds of life randomly being created within those constants. Given that nature has been consistently been observed to create chaos when given time and space rather than order, the odds are simply against it.
0

User is offline   Hendricks266 

  • Weaponized Autism

  #218

Your citation-less back-of-the-envelope math stands in the face of the Fermi paradox.

In addition, your layman description of "chaos vs. order" invokes the second law of thermodynamics--which does not contradict life arising naturally because the Earth does not exist in a closed system: we constantly get an input of energy from the Sun.
0

User is offline   Kathy 

#219

And what purpose this creator of universe has for me?

This post has been edited by Kathy: 09 March 2014 - 02:01 PM

0

User is offline   Ronin 

#220

View PostKathy, on 09 March 2014 - 01:57 PM, said:

And what purpose this creator of universe has for me?

To ask lots, and lots, of questions.

This post has been edited by Ronan: 09 March 2014 - 02:02 PM

0

#221

Being given energy by the sun doesn't stop things from naturally breaking apart and becoming more scattered with time, you still have to account for the practically absolute zero chance of a planet being formed with all of the constants in perfect order and then have the right ingredients form together at the exact same spot at the exact same time. The reason the pocket watch theory is so popular is because we have yet to observe anything of that complexity forming together by chance in a natural environment without any interference from us.
0

User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#222

View PostKathy, on 09 March 2014 - 01:33 PM, said:

You probably would still lose purpose even if you're not the only one.

true. there are people who are in close-knit families with spouses, relatives, and children present. lots of love and caring, yet these people still lost hope and self worth then offed themselves.

i'm not trying to be an idealist, but it'd be nice if a person at least experiences what it's like to be needed, cared for, and depended on before they make that final decision on their importance

This post has been edited by Forge: 09 March 2014 - 02:23 PM

0

#223

It could also have the opposite effect, that someone believes they're more of a burden on their loved ones than a valuable asset and so they choose to put themselves out of their family's misery.
0

User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#224

depression is a motherfucker. unless you've been through it - and i mean real depression (detachment and emptiness don't even begin to describe it) you won't understand. human contact and emotions may help, but it's not a cure.

View PostMetroidJunkie, on 09 March 2014 - 02:06 PM, said:

...still have to account for the practically absolute zero chance of a planet being formed with all of the constants in perfect order and then have the right ingredients form together at the exact same spot at the exact same time...etc., etc.

throwing random chance in a nearly infinite amount of possibilities, or by design theories out the window:
even if there were intelligent beings out there close enough to notice us, why would they bother making their presence known? we're a bunch of aggressive, war-like assholes who can't even get along with ourselves.

This post has been edited by Forge: 09 March 2014 - 06:13 PM

0

User is offline   Kathy 

#225

View PostMetroidJunkie, on 09 March 2014 - 02:06 PM, said:

Being given energy by the sun doesn't stop things from naturally breaking apart and becoming more scattered with time, you still have to account for the practically absolute zero chance of a planet being formed with all of the constants in perfect order and then have the right ingredients form together at the exact same spot at the exact same time.

What are you saying? That there could not be planets similar to ours in a billions of galaxies?

Quote

The reason the pocket watch theory is so popular is because we have yet to observe anything of that complexity forming together by chance in a natural environment without any interference from us.

This shit's been forming for billions of years yet we've been here just several thousand.
0

#226

View PostKathy, on 09 March 2014 - 02:50 PM, said:

What are you saying? That there could not be planets similar to ours in a billions of galaxies?


This shit's been forming for billions of years yet we've been here just several thousand.


The 1 in 10 to the 138th power is the odds that any one planet out of all of the planets in the universe has all constants perfectly tuned, the odds are that low. And, again, time and space creates more chaos so you can't reason that it would eventually form with the precision required to make it happen.


As an analogy, if someone told you that humans didn't actually come up with computers and that they stole the idea from a one in a billion rock formation that occurred by chance over millions of years, would you take it seriously? Probably not, its intense complexity implies an intelligent mind. Without that assumption, archeology would be absolutely unverifiable.

This post has been edited by MetroidJunkie: 09 March 2014 - 03:22 PM

0

User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#227

estimates of 500 billion galaxies with an average of 17 billion earth sized planets for each galaxy
8,500,000,000,000,000,000,000 potential planets for life to take hold.
that's not counting moons that could harbor life as well.
not all these bodies will have liquid water on them or favorable climatic conditions for intelligent life to get established

studies and exploration have shown that our solar system is full of water and organic compounds - these are probably not unique to our system, but universe wide.

the chances of there being a planet exactly like terra are astronomically low, but the chances there could be planets that have favorable conditions for (intelligent) life is probably good


and i bet they commit suicide too

This post has been edited by Forge: 10 March 2014 - 04:31 AM

2

#228

The 1 in 10 to the 138th power odds of a planet in the universe having all 122 constants at livable level assumes that there are 10 to the 22nd power planets in the universe so the odds under the number of planets you say are in the universe would be even worse given this number assumes there are 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 planets, a higher number than the one you provided. Given a few of them involve our atmosphere being the right consistency, I'm not counting on moons meeting those constants.

This post has been edited by MetroidJunkie: 09 March 2014 - 04:27 PM

0

User is offline   Hendricks266 

  • Weaponized Autism

  #229

Where you getting the 1/10138 number from?
1

User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#230

you refuse to admit that a planet doesn't have to be just like terra or meet its exact requirements to sustain life.

-who said intelligent life had to be oxygen breathing or require as much oxygen as we do
-why would the atmosphere have to have the exact same transparency as ours - if it's farther from its sun it would need to be thinner (closer=thicker) not the exact same
-gravitational force also depends on size of star and size/distance of planet from that star - they would not necessarily have to be in the exact same relation as our planet/sun system is
-a planet doesn't necessarily have to have the exact same planet/moon relationship that our system does
-etc x 118 more

all these "constants" are to make a planet EXACTLY like terra, which most likely isn't absolutely necessary for intelligent life to survive somewhere else in the universe.

-done. i'm not into playing circles with people who already have their mind made up when there's legitimate information and evidence that contradicts what they're saying, but they refuse to consider it.

Quote

Where you getting the 1/10*138 number from?

that's the mathematical probability that all the things required (the 122 constants) for terra to be the way it is and for humans to exist

This post has been edited by Forge: 09 March 2014 - 05:09 PM

1

User is offline   Hendricks266 

  • Weaponized Autism

  #231

I meant something closer to: What are these 122 constraints? Cite sources.
1

User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#232

it's a paper written by astrophysics hugh ross and some others

i can't find the source page, but here's an example page
http://www.inplainsi...principles.html

a whole bunch of the constants don't even apply directly to earth-just indirectly like the laws of physics - several have to do with our galaxy being X way and the universe being Y way, the solar system being Z way, etc. etc.

there are probably beings on other planets that deal with blue lightnings and other hard heads as well - i bet they commit suicide out of frustration

This post has been edited by Forge: 09 March 2014 - 05:09 PM

1

User is offline   Hank 

#233

View PostMetroidJunkie, on 09 March 2014 - 02:06 PM, said:

Being given energy by the sun doesn't stop things from naturally breaking apart and becoming more scattered with time, you still have to account for the practically absolute zero chance of a planet being formed with all of the constants in perfect order and then have the right ingredients form together at the exact same spot at the exact same time. The reason the pocket watch theory is so popular is because we have yet to observe anything of that complexity forming together by chance in a natural environment without any interference from us.

Creationism was debunked a hundred years ago.
First catch, a watch was made and it had an creator, humans, and I can prove it. Humans have had no creator unless there is evidence of such an entity. Ergo the burden of prove lies in your court to show evidence of an creator and not what you think was created by it. Hopefully my sucking english makes it clear what I am getting at here.

Way offtopic, but I could not resist.
1

User is offline   Jimmy 

  • Let's go Brandon!

#234

This thread is fucking euphoric.
2

User is offline   MrBlackCat 

#235

Lots of interesting comments. :blink:

Not a lot to say relative to those comments at this time however.

One thing comes to mind however as some have stated... it is my opinion that Clinical Depression is not possible to understand without having experienced it, or without a very unusual ability to understand others. AND even if you have experienced it, your appreciation of the power of its effects decays with time. I go back and read my writings during my deep depressions in order to keep on my toes about avoiding the patterns that can draw you into it. Denial seems to be the most common self-prescribed medicine for it, and it doesn't work without great damage the body and mind over time. Acceptance, education and realistic goals and expectations are in my regimen of self-prescribed medicines for my own depression(s). I don't ever take any type of commercial drug beyond Aspirin or Tylenol maybe.

One of the reasons I view suicide as I do is this... in recent posts I see persons talk about "a sense of purpose". That is probably where I have a limited understanding or at least a dramatically different view. It is my opinion that I have no purpose beyond living. During this time I wish to enjoy my life and I feel AND think that this is my choice. If for some reason I am unable to enjoy my life, I might end it... this is in SPITE of depression almost.

I would like to admit that while I stated above that I don't fear "death" which I perceive as simply no longer existing, I DO fear depression itself. Other than that, I can't think of anything that I am actually afraid of. I realized MANY years ago that the vast majority of people (90% in my estimation) are actually fear based. If you understand the implications of someone who doesn't fear all the things we are "supposed to" it gets very uncomfortable fast... the normal assumption is crazy. I have been tested for Autism twice now. Nothing. It is a thought process, not a psychological/physiological wiring difference in myself that causes this appearance sometimes. An example would be that "Hell" doesn't work on me, nor does threatening. It is difficult to explain, but in person I can usually get the point across pretty quickly/efficiently.

Anyway, the point is that fearing depression seems rational to me... it actually alters how you view your memories. Memory processes associated with smells are the only major exception that I noticed weren't really altered in myself by depression. I learned not to play games (other than time killer types) while depressed as replaying them later caused association of the depression as though it was tied into the memories themselves. Depression alters how I view everything. I will do what I can to avoid ever being truly depressed again. Sadness is welcomed and healthy, but depression is something else for me. When I was depressed, I was not alive.

I would rather see a world where we are taught we don't need a purpose to be happy and live a great life. Our genetic purpose is to live long enough to reproduce... everything else is taught to us by our society and or religious beliefs in my opinion. I view this is a source of major unhappiness for many. All instincts and reaction developed in humans for the purpose of living long enough to reproduce in my opinion. Now these survival instincts seem to be mostly exploited to keep us working (in survival mode or tolerance modes) for 5 or 6 days a week for revenue generation for our rulers. These are things I identified as triggers for my unhappiness anyway. My purpose is what I decide it is... which has become very complex in some ways since I began a habit of thinking beyond what I was taught in the first 20 or so years of my life. At least my life is real now... some people are happy in the society made "Matrix" we live in I suppose, but it isn't for everyone... and some of those people experience a LOT of unhappiness because of this. Think about it like this... we are mostly like Pets to Government/Society, and like ourselves, we don't want pets to do much beyond exactly what we want them to do and then enjoy their lives doing exactly as we tell them or want them to. If they don't want to do what we tell them, and resisted to the point of Fighting Back, we would stop them or kill them. We de-claw cats now... insane. Our governments de-claw us on the same exact logic. This is just an example of the unnatural world we live in now, from my perspective, which causes a great deal of "anger" and other very negative reactions in people... leading to depression and to the subject of this thread... Suicide.


I am very aware there are physiological/chemical reasons that lead people to commit suicide, and I am not really commenting on those because they are outside the control of the individual in my opinion. Mental Illness can be caused by these, but they are not necessarily the actual cause or triggers as in myself. There is no chemical imbalance, there are only "reasons".

Out of time again... must go. Next time I can get back and I want to try to type about the thought process (opposite of denial) that I use to avoid seeing life as such a negative thing that it isn't worth living. Thinking in a negative context was part of my problem... once depressed, life not being worth living is easily understood. Habits of realistic thinking can help you see IF your life is in fact worth living, and for myself, "yes it is" has thus far been the case.

MrBlackCat
1

User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#236

i see where you're coming from. some of it makes sense, some of it is out the window.
i don't think there's any magical cure for depression, physiological or psychological, but i believe a sense of purpose is important. even if it's nothing more than to have something to focus on as a positive when nothing else matters.
that's just me though.
my issues are chemical. my brain is broke and i no longer produce "happy" chemical neurotransmitters (dopamine). I was under so much stress and on high alert for almost two years non-stop while i was in Iraq that the overload during such a long stretch basically shut down it's production permanently. The upside is i have an incredibly high tolerance to pain which helps offset my damaged spine.

-i'd off myself, but like everything else, i'd have to get my wife's permission first
0

User is offline   Fox 

  • Fraka kaka kaka kaka-kow!

#237

View PostForge, on 09 March 2014 - 06:44 PM, said:

my issues are chemical. my brain is broke and i no longer produce "happy" chemical neurotransmitters (dopamine). I was under so much stress and on high alert for almost two years non-stop while i was in Iraq that the overload during such a long stretch basically shut down it's production permanently.

I don't think the brain works like that. Aren't you suffering from posttraumatic stress?

View PostForge, on 09 March 2014 - 04:45 PM, said:

you refuse to admit that a planet doesn't have to be just like terra or meet its exact requirements to sustain life.

-who said intelligent life had to be oxygen breathing or require as much oxygen as we do
-why would the atmosphere have to have the exact same transparency as ours - if it's farther from its sun it would need to be thinner (closer=thicker) not the exact same
-gravitational force also depends on size of star and size/distance of planet from that star - they would not necessarily have to be in the exact same relation as our planet/sun system is
-a planet doesn't necessarily have to have the exact same planet/moon relationship that our system does
-etc x 118 more

all these "constants" are to make a planet EXACTLY like terra, which most likely isn't absolutely necessary for intelligent life to survive somewhere else in the universe.

To be fair, there are very different types of organisms living on this planet, the creatures living on deep sea are nothing like what are used to. A planet doesn't need to be exactly like Earth to sustain life, and we can't really estimate what's necessary to have intelligent life since we only have one sample.

Although it do require that, as some point, it have a similar atmosphere to early Earth in order to produce the primordial soup.

This post has been edited by Fox: 09 March 2014 - 07:01 PM

0

User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#238

View PostFox, on 09 March 2014 - 06:53 PM, said:

Aren't you suffering from posttraumatic stress?

that too.
and yes. i was tested (scanned). my chemical production is basically way down. the only time it turns on is when i have a flashback or get really pissed off.
i have a low production of dopamine, serotonin, and noradrenaline (they figured these are the culprits because we went through the pill dance until they found one that worked. 's why i was acting crazy as batshit for awhile)
's also why i have "anger management issues". it's the only time i really "feel" anything or have energy.

i guess the best way i can explain it is like a drug addict. they keep needing more and more drug every time they take it to get that same high until they reach that pinnacle where no matter how much they take, they can't reach that state of euphoria anymore. I'm at that point. My production is down and it takes way more than i can produce by myself to get a sense of joy and happiness that "most" people can normally get fairly easily.

Quote

To be fair, there are very different types of organisms living on this planet, the creatures living on deep sea are nothing like what are used to. A planet doesn't need to be exactly like Earth to sustain life, and we can't really estimate what's necessary to have intelligent life since we only have one sample.

Although it do require that, as some point, it have a similar atmosphere to early Earth in order to produce the primordial soup.

my thoughts as well. i'm not even sure about the similar atmosphere. terra didn't start with oxygen, it started with organisms that breathed methane and ammonia and "exhaled" oxygen. they were the first mass extinction victims because they had "polluted" the atmosphere so much with oxygen they could no longer thrive in huge numbers.

and if we wanted to throw that god factor in, why would He create such a huge universe just for us tiny little specks? Maybe He's got "experiments" going on in all the other galaxies as well. He made the laws and knows we have no way of getting out of our own galaxy. We don't know what's going on in our own backyard let alone in a completely different galaxy; that is until Andromeda and the milkyway collide. even then the sun will be about burnt out by the time that happens.

This post has been edited by Forge: 09 March 2014 - 08:01 PM

0

User is offline   Danukem 

  • Duke Plus Developer

#239

View PostMrBlackCat, on 09 March 2014 - 06:05 PM, said:

One of the reasons I view suicide as I do is this... in recent posts I see persons talk about "a sense of purpose". That is probably where I have a limited understanding or at least a dramatically different view. It is my opinion that I have no purpose beyond living. During this time I wish to enjoy my life and I feel AND think that this is my choice. If for some reason I am unable to enjoy my life, I might end it... this is in SPITE of depression almost.


I have never suffered from clinical depression but I have known others who do. Some doctors think that clinical depression is, or is caused by, defective thought processes. This agrees with what you were saying about its impact on memory, and also with what I have observed -- in particular, the way that depressed people have selective negative memory and seem blind to anything good going on around them. While I have avoided severe depression, I do have bouts with unhappiness, and I don't seem able to sustain happiness for very long.

One thing that has helped, though, is that I try to separate my intellectual life from my life as a human being. As an intellectual, I tend to have a rather bleak outlook on things. But as a human being, I need to have goals and believe that they matter, and believe that I am working towards a better future. Rather than try to reconcile these two points of view, in the last few years I have just allowed them to exist separately, and it seems to be working (more or less).
0

User is offline   CruX 

#240

View PostMetroidJunkie, on 09 March 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

When did I ever suggest that? I didn't say act like you're the most important thing in the universe but you should act like you were created for a reason and that your life matters in the eyes of the creator.

When you registered, I recognized your handle from the CWCki forums and wondered how long it'd be before you started derailing threads over here with your ignorant bullshit. Question answered, I guess. Did getting run off of that forum teach you nothing about keeping stuff like this to yourself?
-1

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