[Inspector Lagomorf]

Gambini, on 08 March 2014 - 08:14 AM, said:

your role in evolution will contiune through him/her.

Humanity has tampered with its own ecology so much, as well as the ecology of all species surrounding it, that this argument is no longer quite so appealing.

[Forge]

don't limit the act of self-sacrifice to family members and friends. what about the people who endanger themselves by pushing a stranger out of the path of a runaway bus full of nuns?

[Fox]

Gambini, on 08 March 2014 - 08:14 AM, said:

What if who is saved is your offspring? your role in evolution will contiune through him/her. It is a natural thing that parents are willing to give their life for saving their kids, any other kind of heroic act is usually suppressed by fear (which is one of the main aspects of self-preservation).

That's also an instinct of sort.

[Jimmy]

Forge, on 08 March 2014 - 06:18 AM, said:

nobody's brought up wearing bomb vests, flying planes into buildings, or sacrificing yourself to save someone else yet?
-or are those too boring when discussing the "justification" of mental anguish and pain compared to physical suffering?

Suicide bombers/plane droppers are mentally ill.

Forge, on 08 March 2014 - 08:32 AM, said:

don't limit the act of self-sacrifice to family members and friends. what about the people who endanger themselves by pushing a stranger out of the path of a runaway bus full of nuns?

Humanity has a long line of heroism and cowardice. Some folks are more naturally inclined to get in there and do what's right.

[Fox]

Jimmy, on 08 March 2014 - 12:21 PM, said:

Suicide bombers/plane droppers are mentally ill.

That's not true, or at least for majority of them. There is a lot of planning behind these suicide attacks, and the perpetrator knows very well what he/she is doing. In fact suicide itself is used as a mean to escape punishment and increase the damage.

[Danukem]

Fox, on 08 March 2014 - 01:59 PM, said:

That's not true, or at least for majority of them. There is a lot of planning behind these suicide attacks, and the perpetrator knows very well what he/she is doing. In fact suicide itself is used as a mean to escape punishment and increase the damage.

And they are promised that their families will be given a lot of money, so they view it as a rational transaction (especially since they believe they are going to heaven). The leaders wouldn't want bombers who were mentally unstable, because then they might change their minds.

That reminds me of that suicide bomber training camp in Iraq where the trainer was using a live bomb during training a few weeks ago. The bomb went off and it killed his pupils. At least 22 were killed. I had a good laugh about that. http://www.nytimes.c...aqi-pupils.html

[Jimmy]

Implying it doesn't take a mentally ill person to willfully kill himself and others for money.

[Fox]

Yes.

P.S.: Doesn't that apply to the military in general?

[Jimmy]

Joining the military is for retards.

[Forge]

i may be retarded, but i didn't join the military for money. i joined to get my life straight; i was tired of bouncing from crappy job to crappy job and not getting anywhere because drugs became more important than rent or eating.

-besides, the military (& police officers, fire fighters, etc.) don't pay you enough to throw your life away intentionally and purposefully. Self-sacrifice is usually the last resort, not the first option.

[Fox]

Although cops or firefighters aren't "willfully killing themselves and others for money", while that can accurately describes the military service. It may not be true on a personal level, but it is on a corporate level.

Back on the subject, there is a lot of thiking behind kamikaze attacks, so they are not a result of mental illness, even with all the fanaticism.

[Forge]

Fox, on 08 March 2014 - 07:07 PM, said:

Although cops or firefighters aren't "willfully killing themselves and others for money", while that can accurately describes the military service. It may not be true on a personal level, but it is on a corporate level.

that's a warped view of it.
the military aren't killing themselves any more than any other profession where your life is at risk.
not everybody in the military is in it "for the money" - especially since they pay the average enlisted soldier just above poverty level.
police know they may be put in a situation where they may have to take a life.
police know they may be put into a position where they may lose their life

at a "corporate" level, police and firefighters are in a job that may cost them their lives

any dangerous job can be classified as suicidal with that broad description.

if you want to call the military a government sponsored terrorist organization, then do so. no need to try to be subtle about it. I think it'd be great if we lived in a world where there was no need for standing armies, but that's not reality.

Fox, on 08 March 2014 - 07:07 PM, said:

Back on the subject, there is a lot of thiking behind kamikaze attacks, so they are not a result of mental illness, even with all the fanaticism.

^this
i would agree the majority of the suicide bombers know exactly what they're doing and are not mentally ill nor depressed. they're just fanatical for their cause and beliefs.

so it's okay to kill yourself if you know you're taking a preschool full of filthy "infidels/invaders" with you

[MetroidJunkie]

I distinguish suicide from sacrifice by your intent. Did you do it with the goal of dying or the goal of saving the other person? Not everyone who risks their life to save another is killed in the process.

[Jimmy]

Fox, on 08 March 2014 - 07:07 PM, said:

Back on the subject, there is a lot of thiking behind kamikaze attacks, so they are not a result of mental illness, even with all the fanaticism.

So the mentally ill can't put a lot of thought into what they're doing? Trust me, mentally ill people think too much.

[Forge]

being mentally "ill" is not a precursor to suicide unless you're using some broader term of the definition that includes everything outside the realm of self-preservation, natural survival instincts, and "common" logic.

common logic being the fallible qualifier. social values have constantly changed over the last (estimated) 200,000 years

[MetroidJunkie]

One possible reason is a shift in moral values. Let's face it, we've devalued life pretty badly over the years. Someone is much more likely to take their own life in a world where their life isn't valued, where they're convinced they have no real purpose. As Forge mentioned.

[Jimmy]

Forge, on 08 March 2014 - 09:59 PM, said:

being mentally "ill" is not a precursor to suicide unless you're using some broader term of the definition that includes everything outside the realm of self-preservation, natural survival instincts, and "common" logic.

common logic being the fallible qualifier. social values have constantly changed over the last (estimated) 200,000 years

I'm not saying it's a precursor, I'm saying that the people you mentioned are a small minority of potatoes.

[Kathy]

MetroidJunkie, on 08 March 2014 - 10:59 PM, said:

One possible reason is a shift in moral values. Let's face it, we've devalued life pretty badly over the years. Someone is much more likely to take their own life in a world where their life isn't valued, where they're convinced they have no real purpose. As Forge mentioned.

When was the time life valued more?

[MetroidJunkie]

Kathy, on 09 March 2014 - 02:22 AM, said:

When was the time life valued more?

When we believed that all life had intrinsic value and worth? Where we didn't believe that life only mattered when it was convenient and could just be disposed of when it wasn't?

[Forge]

i don't know of another time in history when human life had more value than recently. the only exception i can think of that may qualify is after the plague wiped out about 1/3 europe's population at it's peak.

the explosion in electronic communication does give the impression of a sense of "detachment".

The upside to this neo-electronic society is that i can tell Kathy, way on the other side of the planet, how sexy he is.
The downside is instead of dealing with a close knit community, people are now exposed to millions of other people and one can feel insignificant, unimportant, and basically as worthless as a disposable blip on the screen.

[Hank]

Forge, on 09 March 2014 - 07:35 AM, said:

i don't know of another time in history when human life had more value than recently. the only exception i can think of that may qualify is after the plague wiped out about 1/3 europe's population at it's peak.

the explosion in electronic communication does give the impression of a sense of "detachment".

The upside to this neo-electronic society is that i can tell Kathy, way on the other side of the planet, how sexy he is.
The downside is instead of dealing with a close knit community, people are now exposed to millions of other people and one can feel insignificant, unimportant, and basically as worthless as a disposable blip on the screen.

A bit dramatic.
The internet is just that another way to communicate. We used mail to communicate world wide for centuries.
Just looking up in the sky at night should give one a sense on how insignificant one is.
Also, it's exciting to skype to france, tanzania, japan and so on, why would you feel small? You only talk to one or two persons at a time?

[Forge]

Hank, on 09 March 2014 - 07:46 AM, said:

A bit dramatic.

yes. extreme circumstances to drive home the point to those who don't suffer from depression and wouldn't understand.

Quote

The internet is just that another way to communicate. We used mail to communicate world wide for centuries.

moot. people usually don't send thousands of random letters to the other side of the planet to some other people they don't already know.

Quote

Just looking up in the sky at night should give one a sense on how insignificant one is.

moot. looking at stars doesn't give someone the sense of how many other people are on the planet and the small role they play.

Quote

Also, it's exciting to skype to france, tanzania, japan and so on, why would you feel small? You only talk to one or two persons at a time?

electronic communication has taken people from being exposed to their next door neighbors to potentially exposing them to millions. I can't say for sure how many people use their internet communications just to instant message with a few friends compared to how many get on forums and chat boards where there are more than just "one or two persons" at a time.

This environment would make it easy to feel small and insignificant. Especially if someone isolates themselves from their local community and uses electronic communication as their main means of social interaction.
If I disappeared tomorrow who the hell would notice or care on the internet?
If I disappeared tomorrow my neighbors and friends in my local community would notice and care. If i isolate myself from them, then they wouldn't.

[Hank]

Forge, on 09 March 2014 - 08:17 AM, said:

yes. extreme circumstances to drive home the point to those who don't suffer from depression and wouldn't understand.


1. moot. people usually don't send thousands of random letters to the other side of the planet to some other people they don't already know.


2. moot. looking at stars doesn't give someone the sense of how many other people are on the planet and the small role they play.


electronic communication has taken people from being exposed to their next door neighbors to potentially exposing them to millions. I can't say for sure how many people use their internet communications just to instant message with a few friends compared to how many get on forums and chat boards where there are more than just "one or two persons" at a time.

This environment would make it easy to feel small and insignificant. Especially if someone isolates themselves from their local community and uses electronic communication as their main means of social interaction.
If I disappeared tomorrow who the hell would notice or care on the internet?
If I disappeared tomorrow my neighbors and friends in my local community would notice and care. If i isolate myself from them, then they wouldn't.

too lazy to make this in quote forms
1. I still get junk mail in my mail box every day, it's called advertisement, guess who sends millions of emails per day to strangers - advertisement.
2. If you can't relate to nature and your part in it, your are detached from it. If so, using the internet will sill not help you to see yourself as you really are.
3. Correct. If you stop posting here, no one will notice, (well I don't know, I know that I wont). But like in real life, people do care if you provide something to someone. If they don't here from me, they actually worry. Even in this forum I have one close associate, that cares, make me fell good.

Thus, I love the internet. I think it is superfine stuff, I love our tchno advancements, sure I alone am a tiny part, so what, it's just like in the real world.

[Forge]

junk mail isn't personal communications.

you're applying the situation to people who have normal relations and perspectives, not to people who are depressed and suicidal. if you feel you have no worth and nobody is going to miss you, then the faceless are careless masses behind electronic communication can justify those perceptions. Especially if the person has isolated themselves from actual human interactivity

[Hank]

Of course I see the internet through my eyes, not through a depressed person. Dude, I tried depression for a while, did not sit well. Went to China Town and got some strange herbs and teas and roots and what not. Got me of coke, and back to an almost normal life again, without a shrink.

Looking back, even then (12) years ago, I had access to the internet and because of it, because of the fast information (Yahoo was king then) there, I think it actually saved my life. My closest partner in crime went to Western Medicine, he is no more, done himself in with all the fine drugs shrinks hand out. A nurse (can't find the site) wrote that in her experience, the drugs they (doctors) hand out can and mostly will be more addictive than the drugs you try to get away from. Once in a clinic, if the doctor says you need some meds for this or that mental illness, you are hooked for life. That little essay, real or not (I don't know enough about physiology) prompted me to look for alternatives.

Enough. Big hug from me, I hope my arguments pro internet are a bit clearer. And hopefully, those who are currently in a deep depression phase, find something on the internet to get a little smile on their face.

[MetroidJunkie]

Yeah, I think it's a bit dishonest to blame technology. The problem is an increasingly warped sense of morals. When we follow this attitude that we were a cosmic accident and ultimately have no real purpose but to rot in the ground, it's no wonder suicide increases. Your life matters and you always have the capacity to do good, far too many people just haven't been told that.

[Kathy]

MetroidJunkie, on 09 March 2014 - 11:27 AM, said:

When we follow this attitude that we were a cosmic accident and ultimately have no real purpose but to rot in the ground, it's no wonder suicide increases.

So are you suggesting to delude yourself?

[Forge]

yes.
if you can't find for yourself a reason to continue to exist, and since you've become detached, and the uncaring masses behind the words you read on the internet have no direct impact on your feelings of self-worth (will they really care or miss you when you're gone?), you need to live in an imaginary world where you are the most important thing. If you don't, emptiness and despair win.


(will they really care or miss you when you're gone?) - you may think no. they don't know you and they're just "fake" friends you will never meet, but some of us really do care

[Mark]

Kathy, on 09 March 2014 - 02:22 AM, said:

When was the time life valued more?

Before a certain political party supported fast and cheap "abortions on demand"

[Kathy]

Forge, on 09 March 2014 - 12:12 PM, said:

yes.

I don't like this strange premise that, because humanity 'discovered' world outside Earth and come to know more about the universe, this attitude is harmful.

Quote

you need to live in an imaginary world where you are the most important thing

I am the most important thing for me, but I'm not deluding myself into thinking I'm worth anything in the grand scheme of things.

Mark., on 09 March 2014 - 12:43 PM, said:

Before a certain political party supported fast and cheap "abortions on demand"

I sure hope you'd say what certain country that certain political party represents.