[MusicallyInspired]

http://kotaku.com/we...shers-472880781

[Person of Color]

We need better developers too.

Flowers should be left at the gravestones of every great dead 90's developer. Taps should be played for every internal development studio the Sega-Sammy merger killed. A rope should be tied from Satoru Iwata's neck, and he should be hung from a tree so Nintendo can return to their former glory.

It's more than just publishers, we've lost many of our greatest devs, and sadly Nintendo is about to completely blow it. The WiiU's hardware is an even worse fit for current market conditions than the Sega Saturn was nearly twenty years ago.

Think of how many great people have left the industry in search of greener pastures, never to return.

[Inspector Lagomorf]

I think this accurately and perfectly characterizes where the gaming industry stands at this very moment, and it comes as no surprise to me that Gabe Newell seems to be the lone voice of reason in a sea of focus groups and corporate mindmeld.

[Person of Color]

Gabe Newell only participates in Domino's Pizza focus groups.

[Inspector Lagomorf]

And so Half-Life: Episode 3 is delayed another week...

[Fox]

That's quite an important reading.

[Kristian Joensen]

Publishers as we know them today do all kinds of crazy shit and a lot of it in effect amounts to screwing over development studios in various ways. The first quote below was taken from an interesting article about publisher-developer relations:

Quote

Money is the root of all evil. Said one developer, “Someone once told me the Golden Rule really is, ‘The guy with the gold makes the rules.’” Scott Miller, 3D Realms co-founder, states it just as plainly. “The dirty secret is: Publishers control developers through payments. Rockstar was paying Human Head so late on the milestones payments [in the early days of Prey] that 3D Realms was jumping in to help Human Head because they had payroll to meet. [Rockstar] even said to us, ‘[You’re] taking over the control [we] have over developers.’ Nasty stuff like that happens all the time.” For its part, 3D Realms is helping its fellow developers by offering creative and financial assistance on projects.

Naturally, the money that publishers pour into a project entitles them to have some say. These suggestions can run the gamut of good, bad, and ugly. “When Prey was being developed early on it was actually a Rockstar-label game,” explains Miller. “At the time, Metroid Prime was going to be released, and they had the whole visor thing, and this producer [from Rockstar] said, ‘Well, the visor is going to be a big thing for Metroid, and we should have a visor for Prey.’ And it didn’t fit anything to do with the game at all. So it ended up where we were rejecting all these crazy ideas, and for that reason along with some others, Rockstar ended up dropping the game because we were too hard to work with.”

(Source: https://www.gameinfo...developers.aspx)

Quote

Even with everything all set up, the
project still had its problems. You would
have been forgiven if you’d thought Prey
was cursed. It gave Gerritsen and his
team some nail-biting moments.
“Though I can’t discuss details due to
non-disclosure agreements, I can say
that Human Head worked without a
publishing contract for about 18 months
due to our dispute with our publisher.
That was pretty frightening since Human
Head is an independent studio, and we
were dependent on our milestone
payments to pay for production."
“3D Realms, however, believed in the
game and what we were doing with
development, and they funded us during
that period. This kept the company, and
the project, alive during that period."

(Source: http://pdf.textfiles...scapist_083.pdf)

[Mr. Tibbs]

Kristian Joensen, on 19 April 2013 - 01:38 AM, said:

Publishers as we know them today do all kinds of crazy shit and a lot of it in effect amounts to screwing over development studios in various ways. The first quote below was taken from an interesting article about publisher-developer relations:

What's even worse is that Bethesda pulled the same shit with Human Head years later on the sequel. Except this time round it wasn't the direction of the game that was the problem, it was royalty percentages. Greedy bastards. Independent studios have a rough time being treated with even a modicum of respect. Very few studios catch a break like Gearbox did.

[MusicallyInspired]

Makes you wonder how much of DNF and ACM was actually 2k's/Sega's fault. Given the level of corruption inherent in publishers to pull crap like this I wouldn't put it passed them to lie through their teeth about facts, force the developer to smile and wave while doing their best to hype a game they know is never as good as to was supposed to be, and make them take all the crap for something that's not entirely their fault.

Am I absolving Gearbox? No. The truth is we don't know either way and probably never will with evidence of stuff like this. Anything is possible. Publishers and developers will lie seven ways from sunday to make you believe what they want you to believe without you even knowing it. There's no way to know what's true. So instead of trying to blame somebody I'm just not going to not support crappy games or anybody associated with them.

[Blue Lightning]

Probebly DNF was not good when it was presented to Take Two. They probebly saw pretty much what we ended up with, which is why George didnt get the 5 million.

[Jimmy]

No, they saw unfinished product. Remember Gearbox cut out a good portion of the game and then sold it back to us as DLC.

[Blue Lightning]

Jimmy, on 29 April 2013 - 06:52 PM, said:

No, they saw unfinished product.

Yeah, but they saw enough: 3rd person vehicle sections, linear mapping, no secrets, too many bosses, Duke cant drink water to gain health anymore, to step on shrunken foes the player must press X, Duke picking up turds in toilets, the list goes on.

In other words, they saw a train wreck.

[Kathy]

"Cut out" would mean that it was finished. Most likely it wasn't.

[Jimmy]

It might not have been finished, but it was definitely in the design documents that got leaked when 3DR went under.

[Blue Lightning]

To put it in hard rock perspective, Duke 3D was Led Zepplen 1 and 2, and DNF was Led Zepplen III.

Or in heavy metal terms, Duke 3D was Black Sabbath 1, Paranoid and Master of Reality, and DNF was Black Sabbath 4 (although 4 wasnt that bad really, it just wasnt great like the first 3)

[Hank]

^ not sure what you are saying, but speaking of ancient; the current wave of games reminds me on ...

[Kathy]

Jimmy, on 29 April 2013 - 07:13 PM, said:

It might not have been finished, but it was definitely in the design documents that got leaked when 3DR went under.

Doesn't matter. Stuff always gets cut. Had they worked without interruption then perhaps it would have been included, but they decided to focus on the other aspects and something eventually got cut. Come on, movies cut scenes all the time for various reasons. Cutting in games doesn't necessary ties with DLC. Besides, DLC was released half a year later, not on day 1.

Blue Lightning, on 29 April 2013 - 07:16 PM, said:

Or in heavy metal terms, Duke 3D was Black Sabbath 1, Paranoid and Master of Reality, and DNF was Black Sabbath 4 (although 4 wasnt that bad really, it just wasnt great like the first 3)

lolwot

[Radar]

Blue Lightning, on 29 April 2013 - 07:16 PM, said:

To put it in hard rock perspective, Duke 3D was Led Zepplen 1 and 2, and DNF was Led Zepplen III.

So what are you saying? The next Duke game will be Led Zeppelin IV? My guess is it will skip to Presence.

[Jimmy]

Cathy, on 30 April 2013 - 05:14 AM, said:

Doesn't matter. Stuff always gets cut. Had they worked without interruption then perhaps it would have been included, but they decided to focus on the other aspects and something eventually got cut. Come on, movies cut scenes all the time for various reasons. Cutting in games doesn't necessary ties with DLC. Besides, DLC was released half a year later, not on day 1.

Of course stuff gets cut, but not very often for the reason of "Fuck it, we have to release something."

[LkMax]

Jimmy, on 30 April 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

Of course stuff gets cut, but not very often for the reason of "Fuck it, we have to release something."

But maybe for the reason of "Fuck it, we have to release something after 12 fucking years or we'll have more financial loss".

[Sangman]

Blue Lightning, on 29 April 2013 - 07:16 PM, said:

To put it in hard rock perspective, Duke 3D was Led Zepplen 1 and 2, and DNF was Led Zepplen III.

Or in heavy metal terms, Duke 3D was Black Sabbath 1, Paranoid and Master of Reality, and DNF was Black Sabbath 4 (although 4 wasnt that bad really, it just wasnt great like the first 3)

How the fuck does comparing DNF to two awesome classic albums help your point?

Black Sabbath's Vol 4 is still one of the best records I've ever heard, and one of Black Sabbath's better albums if you ask me.

[ReaperMan]

Duke4.net should publish games.

[Hank]

I thought they do

[ReaperMan]

Those are just mods..... and stand alone TC's. Although impressive, it would be nice to see something that makes duke4.net some money.

Besides just imagine Duke4's slogan...... The height of not sucking or Yatta will make you his Bitch.

[Blue Lightning]

Radar, on 30 April 2013 - 05:27 AM, said:

So what are you saying? The next Duke game will be Led Zeppelin IV? My guess is it will skip to Presence.

Crap, the Presence album was even worse than Led Zepplen III At least Led Zepplen III had ONE half decent song (the Immigrant song)

Sangman, on 30 April 2013 - 02:57 PM, said:

Black Sabbath's Vol 4 is still one of the best records I've ever heard, and one of Black Sabbath's better albums if you ask me.

Wow. Even the song "Snowblind" wasnt very memorable in my opinion, and that was 4's best offering.

[Hank]

ReaperMan, on 30 April 2013 - 04:56 PM, said:

Those are just mods..... and stand alone TC's. Although impressive, it would be nice to see something that makes duke4.net some money.

OK, what is on your mind?
Can you actually use EDuke32 to publish an independent commercial game?

[ReaperMan]

I don't know..... maybe we could make a flash game????

[Hank]

ReaperMan, on 30 April 2013 - 07:05 PM, said:

I don't know..... maybe we could make a flash game????

Sorry, I am lost. Still, just in case ....
If we want to make 2D, can we at least use Unity for web based intelligent like game engine, and replace the Duke with just like duke only way better?

[Blue Lightning]

Great idea Hank!

(I dont even know what the last few posts even mean)

[ReaperMan]

How about Duke's 2nd removed cousin..... Al Atomic.

Hank, on 30 April 2013 - 07:13 PM, said:

Sorry, I am lost. Still, just in case ....

What do you mean? How are you lost?