[Kathy]

Recently I became quite anxious about Steam and DRM practices as a whole. I know that almost any PC gamer has quite a lot of games bought via Steam. And I wondered about some things.

- What would you do if you get banned on Steam? You probably won't even know the reason why. Besides, they could ban you for whatever reason they like. http://www.rockpaper...ur-steam-games/

- What would you do if you want to reject Steam's new EULA?

I know that people trust Steam(and perhaps rightly so if you compare it to other DRMs), but it still has quite a large grasp of many gamers and their games. Aren't you at least worried or something?

[Inspector Lagomorf]

I for one have always worried that someday Steam will be hit with a gargantuan lawsuit from some big gaming publishers, or go through Chapter 7 bankruptcy, necessitating the abrupt shutdown of its service and thus the inaccessibility of the games that users have purchased over the years.

Gamers would be briefly incensed and outraged, but would apathetically concede and turn to the next best alternative - consoles. PC gaming would die overnight, unless a few savvy hackers figure out a way to kill the DRM.

Funny how the service is called "Steam". Steam has a tendency to evaporate...

[Kathy]

Achenar, on 06 February 2013 - 06:55 AM, said:

PC gaming would die overnight, unless a few savvy hackers figure out a way to kill the DRM.

It is already possible. Replacing the executable file of a game in most cases will be enough.

But I wasn't asking about global Steam outage. (Because someone would pop out and say that Gabe promised to make all games drm-free is that happens. Though, I doubt he have legal authority to do that without "ok" from the publishers.)

I'm just interested in how dependent gamer on Steam. And how much could he lose because of this dependency. And is it too late to abandon Steam?

[Lunick]

I think it is pretty hard to get your account fully banned these days. Most offenses I see on the Steam forum range from a VAC ban in one game to not being able to buy anymore games or access the Steam community features. I don't think they lock you out of using your account anymore.

As long as you don't do shady things then I don't see why people should be that worried. Look after your account

[Radar]

Doesn't matter to me anyway. Every game I own - even if I have the things needed to do it legally - automatically get a keygen, a hacked online-independent executable, and a no-CD patch if available. If they aren't gonna give me complete ownership of what I paid for, then I'll get them myself. I don't know about you guys, but I own my games.

[Kathy]

Well, considering how cheap some games on Steam go, then maybe you are indeed just paying for licencing them, not owning. And it's not that far off piracy really and you still violate EULA. I'm not saying it's bad or anything, but you aren't playing by Steam's rules. Of course, after having banned account, you can pirate all these games, but it's still not a valid answer to Steam's dependency. What would be a legal answer? Besides, you'll still be locked out of many multiplayer games dependable on steam community.

It's like saying "Well, DRM isn't such bad thing, cause I can pirate anyway if anything goes wrong".

[Radar]

Hey, you gotta a point there, and it sounds like a good idea! If I ever get my account banned and lose access to a ton of stuff I paid for, then I'll be pirating them all back pronto. Serves them right.

[MusicallyInspired]

I'm not worried. Gabe said they have a system in place to allow all the games to be unlocked if Steam ever goes under. But it's never going under. At least not in the near future. Even if Valve tanks, another company will be right there to scoop up Steam and keep it going. It's too big of a cash cow.

[Jeff]

I use Origin as well as Steam, so there's always alternatives. Origin doesn't have a repair install like Steam does (for some games), but other than that, it does everything I need it to.

[Kathy]

MusicallyInspired, on 07 February 2013 - 12:47 PM, said:

I'm not worried. Gabe said they have a system in place to allow all the games to be unlocked if Steam ever goes under. But it's never going under. At least not in the near future. Even if Valve tanks, another company will be right there to scoop up Steam and keep it going. It's too big of a cash cow.

Whatever he said, it's not written in the EULA. Besides, I wasn't asking about Steam going down. It's another question entirely.

Jeff said:

I use Origin as well as Steam, so there's always alternatives. Origin doesn't have a repair install like Steam does (for some games), but other than that, it does everything I need it to.

And the same applies to Origin. You have a client that needed to be run if the game isn't even from Valve or EA. (on older games, though, running Origin isn't needed I think)

[Hank]

I can't answer your question directly either.
1. I used Steam in the past, yet some of my games are to be played online, and anyone who wants to know, can check how many hours I play. So I simply stopped using Steam all together. Yes, I am very fuzzy about my privacy. I do not wish to be on record for my gaming habits, period.

2. The latest ELUA terms from Steam are now being officially challenged in the German Courts. I hope Steam get there arse kicked. You can't even change ownership of games you no longer want or play.

3. The paradox is, while I do not like Steam as a gamer, as a game maker, hey, I would love to have a couple of games being distributed through them,

So I too am technically off-topic - I do not worry about: what if, because it's done, I don't use Steam.

[Lunick]

I'm gonna be honest here, why should you be able to sell digital games? They are just going nowhere since they don't exist physically. If I buy a game then I want to keep it, no matter how bad it might be.

[Fox]

MusicallyInspired, on 07 February 2013 - 12:47 PM, said:

I'm not worried. Gabe said they have a system in place to allow all the games to be unlocked if Steam ever goes under. But it's never going under. At least not in the near future. Even if Valve tanks, another company will be right there to scoop up Steam and keep it going. It's too big of a cash cow.

I guess this raises the question of if you can trust Steam as a company or not. I mean, they have the power not to fuck with the user, but does that mean they are not going to?

I think that with time it is getting more obvious that DRM has been little used against piracy, but it makes a lot of sense from the point of view from the marketing. Apparently a clause in Origin says you may loose access to your account in 2 years if you don't buy other products in the time. Would you buy a house if the seller had the right to kick you out whenever they want and feel it may increase their sells? I don't think so.

[MusicallyInspired]

I guess, at the end of the day, they're just games. Expensive, though. And nothing will ever stop piracy either way. So there's always a way out. So if Steam ever did do something like that against customers, well, they'd rue it themselves. They're reputation would suffer tremendously and more and more people would pirate their clients' products. It's been proven time and time again, they say, that piracy does not cause game companies to lose money, but they would be missing out on sales some people might otherwise feel inclined to pay for.

Gabe, Valve, and Steam have always said that their service was based on the way they treat their customers and clients. By the way he'd/they'd want to be treated if he/they were using such a service. No human is infallible, obviously, but I'll trust that mantra. I think it's moreso in human nature, really, to distrust people at their word or good intentions than to give in to the tendency to rip people off intentionally. And that part is on us not Steam. It's funny, when something so good comes along people are wonderfully obliged to find something wrong with it because it's "too good." Everyone has got to admit that we could do a lot worse than Steam for DRM. Steam is and has been the best solution and alternative to both intrusive DRM and piracy respectively. It's showing no evidence of changing that track record. I'll keep using it until something does happen, which I personally don't think will. Call me naive? Maybe. But again, at the end of the day they are just games. Luxuries. First world problems, if you will. Not necessities. I'm happy to trust them for now.

Just like to add that I don't blame anybody for feeling differently. It's merely an observation, nothing more.

[Mikko]

Fox, on 07 February 2013 - 09:05 PM, said:

Apparently a clause in Origin says you may loose access to your account in 2 years if you don't buy other products in the time.

No, but if you don't use your account for two years and if that account has no content then they may cancel the account.

[Hank]

Lunick, on 07 February 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

I'm gonna be honest here, why should you be able to sell digital games? They are just going nowhere since they don't exist physically. If I buy a game then I want to keep it, no matter how bad it might be.

Here is my take:
Let's assume that no one would be interested in getting an official license of a lousy game. A good game, one that someone else would be interested to play online, say the Fantasy series, I see not reason why I can't transfer my license to my next door neighbour, be it across the street or in a far away country. I can transfer licenses, legally, with most Microsoft and all AutoDesk products. Steam is different. Why? A digital version of a game is still a tangible product, even if some of the gigabytes reside on a remote server.

Anything I could resell, I want to be able to resell. Let's assume again, this time, I landed on very hard time. I want to liquidate non-essential items. Well, playing games does not put food in the fridge. So lets sell my games, and use the proceeds to feed my family. Let's also assume, I collected a thousand games over the years. Steam says, no. Sorry dude, can't do this.

Now then, let me ask you, why should I not be able to transfer my licenses?

In respect to your point, I think digital games are very real and measurable in bytes and hardware storage space required.

[Micky C]

At least part of the reason would be that people could accumulate lots of games on sale, and then sell them off to make a profit. Although I guess people can still do that with gifts anyway.

[Fox]

Hank, on 08 February 2013 - 05:17 AM, said:

Here is my take:
Let's assume that no one would be interested in getting an official license of a lousy game. A good game, one that someone else would be interested to play online, say the Fantasy series, I see not reason why I can't transfer my license to my next door neighbour, be it across the street or in a far away country. I can transfer licenses, legally, with most Microsoft and all AutoDesk products. Steam is different. Why? A digital version of a game is still a tangible product, even if some of the gigabytes reside on a remote server.

Anything I could resell, I want to be able to resell. Let's assume again, this time, I landed on very hard time. I want to liquidate non-essential items. Well, playing games does not put food in the fridge. So lets sell my games, and use the proceeds to feed my family. Let's also assume, I collected a thousand games over the years. Steam says, no. Sorry dude, can't do this.

Now then, let me ask you, why should I not be able to transfer my licenses?

In respect to your point, I think digital games are very real and measurable in bytes and hardware storage space required.

Because on theory if you sell the game for a lower price, Steam would make less profit.

[Hank]

Fox, on 08 February 2013 - 05:40 AM, said:

Because on theory if you sell the game for a lower price, Steam would make less profit.

I don't follow.
Steam already sold the license to me, one single person. If I sell it for a lower price, it should not affect, even theoretically, Steam's profitability.

[Fox]

On theory, that person would buy from Steam instead.

[Mikko]

Hank, on 08 February 2013 - 05:17 AM, said:

Now then, let me ask you, why should I not be able to transfer my licenses?

In respect to your point, I think digital games are very real and measurable in bytes and hardware storage space required.

Producers have never liked the idea of 2nd-hand sales. But before, they could do little about it. Now they can. Of course they're not going to allow you to resell stuff you buy on Steam. That's a no-brainer. There's nothing wrong with it. You've simply grown accustomed to the idea that you're able to resell stuff simply because you've gotten accustomed to physical products. But times have changed. The old rules no longer apply.

[Hank]

@ Fox - Well, I am stuck in a snow storm, so just for fun...

In theory, the person that just got my Steam license may also be a brand new gamer. By selling my Steam license to the new gamer, I may just have given Steam a brand new, loyal and honest customer, basically continuing were I left of.

@ Micco - Yes, they can, and the consumers do nothing against it, because they also accept the idea that it's just cyber space stored stuff, it's not real etc. Yet exactly this attitude from Steam tempts people like me to distribute stuff for next to 0, because technology permits me to do so, and it is not real stuff.

[Mikko]

It costs exactly zero to acquire a Steam client. Steam would lose if the new gamer had bought his games 1st hand had the 2nd-hand option not been available.

[Fox]

Hank, on 08 February 2013 - 06:25 AM, said:

In theory, the person that just got my Steam license may also be a brand new gamer. By selling my Steam license to the new gamer, I may just have given Steam a brand new, loyal and honest customer, basically continuing were I left of.

Since Steam is not getting paid, you are stealing from them, meaning you are no different from a robber.

[Kathy]

Hank, on 07 February 2013 - 08:04 PM, said:

1. I used Steam in the past, yet some of my games are to be played online, and anyone who wants to know, can check how many hours I play.

There are privacy options, you know. Make account only visible to you. Of course Steam engineers would still see you playtime, but I doubt they would care.

Quote

I don't use Steam.

I came to the same conclusion. Uninstalled it last year.

MusicallyInspired, on 07 February 2013 - 10:07 PM, said:

I guess, at the end of the day, they're just games. Expensive, though. And nothing will ever stop piracy either way. So there's always a way out. So if Steam ever did do something like that against customers, well, they'd rue it themselves. They're reputation would suffer tremendously and more and more people would pirate their clients' products.

Steam already doing it. They ban people and restrict access to legally bought games. Or unless you accept new EULA you can't access your games bought with the previous one. I'm talking about that kind of crap when outcry might not be possible.

Fox, on 08 February 2013 - 06:50 AM, said:

Since Steam is not getting paid, you are stealing from them, meaning you are no different from a robber.

Stealing is taking an actual thing and relocating it so it cannot be used.

[Inspector Lagomorf]

Burnett, on 08 February 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

Stealing is taking an actual thing and relocating it so it cannot be used.

Say something loud enough and often enough, and eventually the definition will change. This is how the MPAA and the RIAA get their way.

[Spirrwell]

Well, Steam could have it's own selling service in which they get like 5% of whatever you sell your game for in order to balance out profit. Although I know nothing about DRM and whatnot, but I just thought it would be a cool idea.

[Sangman]

Burnett, on 08 February 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

Stealing is taking an actual thing and relocating it so it cannot be used.

Well in that example you are indeed denying ('taking') profit ('an actual thing')..

[Hank]

Fox, on 08 February 2013 - 06:50 AM, said:

Since Steam is not getting paid, you are stealing from them, meaning you are no different from a robber.

I think I lost you with me bad English.
One more simple try:
I am broke, need cash, sell my stuff to the next door (12/13/14/15/16 year old) kid, . He/she is now introduced to Steam. Get's older, buys more cool games from Steam, because it is a good site to buy from, and is a loyal customer to Steam for decades to come. - I am not a robber, I am the Knight in shining Armour, I just handed you a new customer. And, once I am back on my feed, I will re-buy my games.

If you (not you but Steam) wants to see the negative, you'll find it, if you look for the positive, you'll find that also.

[Kathy]

[oh, whatever]