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Political Shitshooting  "previously: YEAH! WOOHOO! Liberals got the same healthcare pla"

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#1

[thread title originally: YEAH! WOOHOO! Liberals got the same healthcare plan through that conservatives wanted for 30 years!]
[thread title previously: Health Care and Economic Discussion]

Yeahhhh! Woohoo! Victory! We got the same corporate run healthcare system that the Republicans pushed back in 1996! And the same system they were pushing in decades past!

Fuck yeah, AMERICA! FOOTBALL! DEEP FRIED TWINKIES! MATH!

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This post has been edited by Hendricks266: 01 August 2012 - 09:46 PM
Reason for edit: dat thread title, take 2

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User is offline   Inspector Lagomorf 

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#2

I was hoping we could go for longer without starting this clear shitstormbait of a political thread on here.

Glad you could prove me wrong, Descent. Kudos. :blink:

Edit: For you non-Yanks who have no idea what the Hell is being talked about here, the United States Supreme Court upheld 5-4 (thanks in part due to Chief Justice Roberts' about-face) the Affordable Care Act passed by Congress two years ago, a system that effectively mandates the purchasing and provision of healthcare by the federal government. Critics argue that this steers the USA away from privatized medicine and puts it in the hands of government that hasn't exactly demonstrated itself to be competent with taxpayer money. I think it's a good idea in theory, but it just doesn't work with the impotency of the USA government.

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This post has been edited by Achenar: 28 June 2012 - 01:30 PM

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User is offline   Master Fibbles 

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#3

The tax that survived is a bad sign though. Usually I don't go for "slippery slope" theories but in this case I think it works, at least from a troll perspective. If you can tax people for not having insurance, you can sure as hell tax them for being overweight.

The real thing to take away is that Obama said resolutely to the American people that it was not a tax but then the Supreme Court ruled that it could only stand because it is a tax. If spun correctly, independents will turn against Obama in November.

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This post has been edited by Mr.Flibble: 28 June 2012 - 03:02 PM

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  #4

View PostMr.Flibble, on 28 June 2012 - 03:01 PM, said:

The real thing to take away is that Obama said resolutely to the American people that it was not a tax but then the Supreme Court ruled that it could only stand because it is a tax. If spun correctly, independents will turn against Obama in November.

What cracks me up is the conservative idiots claiming Obama "lied" about it being a tax when he said it wasn't. It's like they lack the basic logic and common sense to understand that it wasn't a tax at the time, but as of today it is. Can it really be so hard for people to understand that situations change during time spans of multiple years? My wife's dad is like this and it annoys the everloving fuck out of me.

By republican "logic", if I look outside right now, observe that the lawn is in fact NOT on fire, but at some point in the next 3 years it DOES happen to catch fire that means I'm lying right now. It's truly idiocy at its finest.

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View PostTerminX, on 28 June 2012 - 03:30 PM, said:

What cracks me up is the conservative idiots claiming Obama "lied" about it being a tax when he said it wasn't. It's like they lack the basic logic and common sense to understand that it wasn't a tax at the time, but as of today it is. Can it really be so hard for people to understand that situations change during time spans of multiple years? My wife's dad is like this and it annoys the everloving fuck out of me.

By republican "logic", if I look outside right now, observe that the lawn is in fact NOT on fire, but at some point in the next 3 years it DOES happen to catch fire that means I'm lying right now. It's truly idiocy at its finest.


So if you're done with the ad hominems against conservatives in general, at what point did it become a tax? Since you seem to be well-read on the law, from what I'm understanding, apparently there must be a provision in there somewhere that it allows it to become a tax overtime...

Edit: Or perhaps what you're trying to say is that, even if Obama says it's not a tax, it can be a tax because Justice Roberts says so, and the fact that conservatives are saying that Obama is wrong makes them stupid because they should have seen that it was a tax in the first place. Which I think, if true, is utterly crap logic on your part but that's just me. Personally, I have a major problem with our Congressmen claiming exemptions and waivers from Obamacare, as in essence, they are exempting themselves from the rather sizable tax penalty.

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This post has been edited by Achenar: 28 June 2012 - 03:41 PM

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User is offline   Jimmy 100MPH 

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I hate living in a time and place where the IQs are colder than room temperature.

I had this conversation on Facebook earlier. (No, I'm not scared of you guys adding me, I just don't want it getting spread around and then have republitards bothering me.)
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The "I'm moving to Canada" thing is just stupid. Real 'Mericans won't run away! Real 'Mericans will load up on ammunition and riot!

I would like to address TX's point:
Correct, it was not pushed as a tax, it has been determined to be a tax. The White House lawyers presented two sets of arguments: It is not a tax, therefore, it is not unconstitutional (Commerce Clause business). It is a tax, therefore, Congress can regulate it. That type of sophistry is pretty impressive but should not be allowed or encouraged.

Obama said it wasn't a tax because he wanted it to be passed and supported (Who would vote for a tax? Exactly, no one would). It was all politics. Although it is possible that he was so ignorant as to believe that he could push through legislation that creates commerce where there was none, I suspect that a constitutional lawyer knew that it had to be argued as a tax in order to survive a court battle.

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This post has been edited by Mr.Flibble: 28 June 2012 - 04:32 PM

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#8

View PostMr.Flibble, on 28 June 2012 - 04:27 PM, said:

The "I'm moving to Canada" thing is just stupid. Real 'Mericans won't run away! Real 'Mericans will load up on ammunition and riot!


Real 'Mericans Don't need to load up on ammo, they already have plenty on hand. :blink:
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View PostMr.Flibble, on 28 June 2012 - 04:27 PM, said:

The "I'm moving to Canada" thing is just stupid. Real 'Mericans won't run away! Real 'Mericans will load up on ammunition and riot!


Actually, I will have to move to Canada if things don't pan out my way.

I take a fuckton of lithium (2100mg/day) to control bipolar disorder.

Problem is, generic lithium is shit, so I have to take the name brand stuff.

That's 660 bucks a fucking month, and no one wants to cover the name brand shit except Medicaid and Medicare.

Medicaid was great, it covered all my pills. But I wasn't allowed to be on it for so long. So the only option was for Uncle Sam to list me as permanently disabled, so I could get Medicare.

To stay on Medicare, I have to be have an income cap of 980/month with a 630 monthly allowance from Uncle Sam.

That's total horseshit, because I'll be CCNA certified by the end of the year. I could break the damn income cap with a single paycheck.

Oh yeah, and no other medication works. And my dad's insurance doesn't cover my pills.

Greatest country in the world am I right? I happen to fall through EVERY SINGLE FUCKING CRACK in our healthcare system.

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This post has been edited by Descent: 28 June 2012 - 05:09 PM

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  #10

View PostAchenar, on 28 June 2012 - 03:33 PM, said:

So if you're done with the ad hominems against conservatives in general, at what point did it become a tax? Since you seem to be well-read on the law, from what I'm understanding, apparently there must be a provision in there somewhere that it allows it to become a tax overtime...

Edit: Or perhaps what you're trying to say is that, even if Obama says it's not a tax, it can be a tax because Justice Roberts says so, and the fact that conservatives are saying that Obama is wrong makes them stupid because they should have seen that it was a tax in the first place. Which I think, if true, is utterly crap logic on your part but that's just me. Personally, I have a major problem with our Congressmen claiming exemptions and waivers from Obamacare, as in essence, they are exempting themselves from the rather sizable tax penalty.

What I'm saying is more in line with what you've edited in, but you haven't quite grasped my point. I'm not saying "conservatives are stupid because they're saying Obama is wrong," I'm saying the particular conservatives who are outright calling him a liar for saying it wasn't a tax 3 years ago, back when it wasn't a tax, are stupid at best and distorting the facts at worst. They should not have seen that it was a tax in the first place because it wasn't one. The individual mandate is a tax now, because enforcing it under the commerce clause was deemed unconstitutional, but it was not implemented as a tax or ever intended to be one when Obama made the comments he made. It is presumably legal for it to be upheld as a tax instead, because that's what the highest court in the country just did.

There is a pretty big difference between deliberately misrepresenting facts (lying) and what Obama did, which was have the details of the implementation change long after he commented on it. If it's noon and I come out and say "the sun is shining and it's a beautiful day", I do not become a liar 3 months later when it's pouring buckets simply because my comment is no longer accurate. It's a pretty simple concept.


View PostMr.Flibble, on 28 June 2012 - 04:27 PM, said:

I would like to address TX's point:
Correct, it was not pushed as a tax, it has been determined to be a tax. The White House lawyers presented two sets of arguments: It is not a tax, therefore, it is not unconstitutional (Commerce Clause business). It is a tax, therefore, Congress can regulate it. That type of sophistry is pretty impressive but should not be allowed or encouraged.

Obama said it wasn't a tax because he wanted it to be passed and supported (Who would vote for a tax? Exactly, no one would). It was all politics. Although it is possible that he was so ignorant as to believe that he could push through legislation that creates commerce where there was none, I suspect that a constitutional lawyer knew that it had to be argued as a tax in order to survive a court battle.

Those two arguments were presented after Obama made the comments that conservatives are parroting off as lies, though. It's entirely possible they knew from the beginning that the only way to actually push it through if it went to the supreme court as it did would be if it was a tax, but it's also entirely possible that several lawyers practicing constitutional law put forth the opinion that it was legal. Constitutional law is notoriously difficult to grasp for a great many people, so this is not very far fetched.

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View PostMr.Flibble, on 28 June 2012 - 03:01 PM, said:

The tax that survived is a bad sign though. Usually I don't go for "slippery slope" theories but in this case I think it works, at least from a troll perspective. If you can tax people for not having insurance, you can sure as hell tax them for being overweight.


Exactly. America is a common law country so the "slippery slope" argument is exactly correct. Congress could bypass the Constitution and regulate individuals' economic decisions simply by using the tax rationale.

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#12

YEAH WOOHOO HUGE TAX INCREASES FOR EVERYBODY DURING THE WORST RECESSION IN HISTORY! YEAH BIG WIN! Obama is done.
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#13

I have limited knowledge about Obamacare but what will it do to the American Healthcare.

Will it make it closer related to Canada healthcare?
I know it may not be the same as Canada but will it move closer?

I tried googling and I can't find relevant information on Obamacare.

Some ppl say is bad
Some say is good.


Also many says it will hike the tax.


I think tax right now is lower in USA than Canada I am not sure.



Example
In Canada especially Quebec we pay like around 15% total for tax.
5 for Provincial and federal tax around 9.5%

For income tax I think if you make 40K a year the tax is around 24-25%


Dunno for USA. ppl says USA is cheaper cus more people.
gas price is a bit lower in USA than Canada even if they measure in gallons.

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This post has been edited by Zaxtor: 29 June 2012 - 06:12 PM

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View PostMad Max RW, on 29 June 2012 - 05:09 PM, said:

Obama is done.

The other choice isn't much better, i swear its like voting for the lesser of two evils because both parties suck.
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View PostReaperMan, on 29 June 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:

The other choice isn't much better, i swear its like voting for the lesser of two evils because both parties suck.



I'm not satisfied with Romney either, but we're working on trying to get the old establishment farts out of the GOP. I don't know what the Dems are doing in that regard.

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This post has been edited by Achenar: 29 June 2012 - 06:41 PM

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View PostMad Max RW, on 29 June 2012 - 05:09 PM, said:

YEAH WOOHOO HUGE TAX INCREASES FOR EVERYBODY DURING THE WORST RECESSION IN HISTORY! YEAH BIG WIN! Obama is done.

Ah, so the 17% or so of Americans who are uninsured are "everybody" now? It's good to know that 17% is much closer to 100% (i.e "everybody") than I thought. I never was very good with math. I bet that percentage drops a lot once the people in that 17% "everybody" group actually have access to health care they can afford. I guess that leaves the people who refuse to participate in health insurance, who should be taxed to fund the system because they'll sure as hell be taking money out of the system when they eventually need that health care they declined beforehand.

And Romney's "plan" is just to do the same exact things Bush did--his campaign people have already confirmed it to be an updated version of the Bush era policies. We've already experienced 10% unemployment due to those policies, which also caused this recession in the first place. If Romney were to be elected, we'd just get Bush 2.0 and end up in an even worse position. Unfortunately, Romney's experience in sending jobs overseas to increase profit won't be of much use when the jobs we want to create are in the US, not in India or wherever else. Obama may not be a great president (or even a good one), but at least the country is recovering, albeit at a very slow pace.

Edit: it looks like my 17% figure was way off, and the actual number of Americans who will be required to either newly purchase insurance or pay the tax is as low as 6 percent.

I feel pretty strongly about this whole health care thing because my wife has systemic lupus erythematosus. She is sick every day, cannot work because her body is more or less falling apart and has been continually denied disability benefits because lupus isn't a recognized disabling condition, even though it causes severe rheumatoid arthritis, organ damage, muscle atrophy to the point where she can barely lift our 30 lb son, and often ends in an early death when untreated. From our standpoint, "Obamacare" is pretty much the best thing to ever happen to us.

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User is offline   Jimmy 100MPH 

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#17

Romney and Obama are owned by the same big money. Ignore Presidential elections. They are irrelevant. Work for change on the local level. Get fundamentalist Christians off your school boards, kick the rich fucks monopolizing on town hall out, bail on racist sheriffs. Get honest people to represent you on the local level, and your representatives in Washington (this is harder, but it can be done.) We're gonna have to work from the bottom up to kick corruption, shenanigans, and corporations. We're also going to have to change ourselves. Selfish ignorant citizens elect selfish ignorant leaders. Vote locally, think globally.

Edit: Lupus blows, man. My aunt passed from it here recently. Sorry to hear about that, but I hope things can work out well for you guys.

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This post has been edited by Captain Awesome: 29 June 2012 - 10:45 PM

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#18

Sorry to hear about ur wife.
I hope they find a cure soon for her illness so she can get well.
It sucks a mother cannot lift her own child.

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This post has been edited by Zaxtor: 29 June 2012 - 09:46 PM

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#19

Lupus is an autoimmune disease, isn't it? That alone ought to be enough. My mother occasionally has problems with her neck from a workplace accident she was involved in nearly seven years ago, and even she at least got a 50% disability rating. Sad world we live in.

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" TX said: I guess that leaves the people who refuse to participate in health insurance, who should be taxed to fund the system because they'll sure as hell be taking money out of the system when they eventually need that health care they declined beforehand. "

I would think that a lot of the uninsured are people that are rich enough to pay out of pocket for healthcare and do not drain the system. But overall I agree with your statement. I dislike the freeloaders that run to emergency rooms every time they catch a cold or break a nail and we pay for it. But I still would have liked to see something other than the government solution to address all of our problems.

This post has been edited by Marked: 30 June 2012 - 05:12 AM

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View PostTerminX, on 29 June 2012 - 09:19 PM, said:

Ah, so the 17% or so of Americans who are uninsured are "everybody" now? It's good to know that 17% is much closer to 100% (i.e "everybody") than I thought. I never was very good with math. I bet that percentage drops a lot once the people in that 17% "everybody" group actually have access to health care they can afford. I guess that leaves the people who refuse to participate in health insurance, who should be taxed to fund the system because they'll sure as hell be taking money out of the system when they eventually need that health care they declined beforehand.
...
Edit: it looks like my 17% figure was way off, and the actual number of Americans who will be required to either newly purchase insurance or pay the tax is as low as 6 percent.


You're missing the point entirely: the law could lead to a significant rise in the number of uninsured.

Perhaps the most significant and disastrous bit of Obamacare prevents insurers from denying coverage to people with pre-existing conditions. (Imagine that you could purchase fire insurance while your house is on fire.) In fact, the insurer would not even be allowed to charge a higher premium. Given this, no healthy person would buy insurance and the industry would suffer because of this adverse selection problem: only sick people would seek insurance while the insurers would want as little sick people as their customers as they could. This would either bankrupt the industry or the consumer. The individual mandate is meant to fix the adverse selection problem (i.e., there would be no "selection" because everyone would be forced to purchase coverage) but the penalty (the one we now call a "tax") for not seeking coverage is a lot less than the cost of insurance. People would simply pay the tax rather than purchase insurance until they're sick. Premiums would rise across the board, making it even more profitable for healthy people and employers to drop coverage, putting more upward pressure on premiums, driving even more healthy people out of insurance, etc. (This would take place over the course of several decades: initially there will be a significant drop in the number of uninsured.)

Another problem is that since the poor may not be able to afford health insurance, they'd have to be subsidized by the government. Of course any such subsidy would decrease as your income increases so a subsidy like that would be equal to a rise in the progressivity of taxation, further decreasing work incentives.

The whole Obamacare is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist: according to studies, the uninsured don't even face higher mortality rates. Obamacare does not deal with the real problem, the spiralling costs of health care in the United States. There are simple, clear cut ways to decrease costs such as by allowing competition across state lines, abolishing the FDA, capping damages for medical negligence (the lawyer-infested Democrats would probably never allow it) and allowing non-doctor medical personnel to perform simple procedures that are now the monopoly of doctors.

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View PostTerminX, on 29 June 2012 - 09:19 PM, said:

Ah, so the 17% or so of Americans who are uninsured are "everybody" now? It's good to know that 17% is much closer to 100% (i.e "everybody") than I thought. I never was very good with math. I bet that percentage drops a lot once the people in that 17% "everybody" group actually have access to health care they can afford. I guess that leaves the people who refuse to participate in health insurance, who should be taxed to fund the system because they'll sure as hell be taking money out of the system when they eventually need that health care they declined beforehand.


This administration has lied about the numbers for every single thing, so why stop now. I work at a small private college, and this changes everything for everybody. We all have health insurance, but that isn't going to last. Also with the new taxes it will be impossible to hire new people even if somebody is fired or quits/retires they can't be replaced. The new hidden taxes is too much and under this recession we're barely hanging on already. On top of that we have the little talked about student loan part of the bill designed to crush private universities. Every single small business owner I have spoken to is against this. My doctor, who was a huge Obama supporter, is against this. The people who are for it typically don't know what they're talking about and are still brainwashed by the Obama hype and for whatever reason chose to ignore the lies. This is a gigantic tax increase on virtually every citizen during a recession where every dollar counts.

Try talking to the people instead of letting the media and Obama tell you what to think. Ask your employer what he thinks.

This post has been edited by Mad Max RW: 30 June 2012 - 06:35 AM

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User is offline   Mark 

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#23

From what I've heard, my premiums are going to skyrocket again under this plan. I've been one of the lucky ones that haven't had a visit to the doctor for almost 40 years now. In my younger days I went without any insurance. But now that I'm older and wiser, and with many more assets to lose I have chosen to buy insurance. But to keep premiums as low as possible I buy bare-bones way-high deductable plans. Given that I don't make a large yearly wage and my good health this makes sense for me. But now it seems I am going to be forced by law eventually to buy a more complete and expensive plan that meets Obamacare minimum requirements. This sucks.
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Marked, you should look into Medicaid if you're income level fits in a couple years. ACA expands eligibility and funding when it goes into effect. One of the very few good ideas in the bill.

That's my goal, to get back on a plan with a much larger income cap, or better yet, buy a plan with no income cap and expansive name brand drug coverage.

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This post has been edited by Descent: 30 June 2012 - 06:55 PM

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#25

View PostDescent, on 30 June 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

Marked, you should look into Medicaid if you're income level fits in a couple years. ACA expands eligibility and funding when it goes into effect. One of the very few good ideas in the bill.


Assuming the state doesn't opt out, as it has the ability to do (but only with the Medicaid expansion) with the outcome of the SCOTUS decision.

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This post has been edited by Achenar: 30 June 2012 - 07:59 PM

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I think it's ultimately foolish for states to opt out of the Medicaid expansion... as it is, Medicaid at the individual state level receives something like 57% of its funding from the federal government. Under the ACA, the expanded Medicaid is 100% federally funded for the first several years and 90% federally funded from then on. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me. Maybe I'm blind, but it would seem that even in the states that have the highest number of uninsured Americans right now (e.g. the states that will see the largest rise in Medicaid participants), the state still ends up paying less at the end of the day. How is this bad? Is making a political point really worth sacrificing significant federal funding that goes to improve the quality of life of the state's residents?

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View PostTerminX, on 30 June 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

How is this bad? Is making a political point really worth sacrificing significant federal funding that goes to improve the quality of life of the state's residents?


You'll keep seeing more of this shit until we get the Baby Boomers out of office. There are a massive number of them who love that childish, teenage, reactionary response. Pragmatism be damned.

And no, Marked, I'm not including you in that, you can hold a civilized discussion just fine.

Now I'm going to sit back and await a flood of downvotes. Hopefully at least one person gets what I'm saying here.

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This post has been edited by Descent: 30 June 2012 - 08:27 PM

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  #28

Have a +1, you know I get it. :rolleyes:

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#29

You guys do realize healthcare already eats up more federal funding (taxpayer money) than anything else, right? More than education and more than the military. So the current administration's plan to improve and expand healthcare is by throwing more money at it with the largest tax increase in US history. That method sure has done wonders to our public education system, which cost us more than both wars in Iraq and Afghanistan with no improvements whatsoever. Then how many trillions have we spent on LBJ's war to wipe out poverty? That one sure panned out well. And now we're broke. But let's just raise taxes and keep spending more. It sure has worked out well in Europe. Oh wait...

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#30

Of course I realize that. I think it's depressing how many people out there don't understand how shitty the ACA is. The biggest problem with our healthcare system is that HMO's are a government sponsored monopoly. Ever since Nixon passed the HMO Act in 1973, costs have been gradually spiraling out of control. This strengthens their grip more than ever before.

We don't have a free market, nor do we have a single payer system. Instead what we have is crony capitalism at it's absolute worst. It's quite possibly the greatest exploitation of any market in human history.

This is why I'm for a federally funded, state administered health care system. Have the Federal government create a shared monetary pool so smaller or less populous states like Rhode Island, Delaware, and Montana can have quality programs. Set up some very basic quality of care guidelines the states have to follow. Then let us create fifty laboratories of innovation.

Medicare has already shown the Feds can't run an efficient program. The quality of care is excellent, but God damn is it riddled with problems, cost overruns, and fraud.

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Proud trigendered babysexual pan-Korean anarcho-transhumanist
Muslims are peaceful people oppressed by cis white males! Hillary for presidynt!
WE WILL NOT BE SILENCED BY DONALD TRUMP'S VIOLENCE!

This post has been edited by Descent: 01 July 2012 - 12:01 AM

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