[Helixhorned]

Isn't that the whole pro/contra HRP/Polymer/general visual enhancements debate (which is always a matter of taste) all over again? Personally, I find it looks pretty good both ways.

[rasmus thorup]

Are you comparing a duke3d map with mona lisa?

[Mike Norvak]

rasmus thorup, on 26 September 2011 - 10:32 AM, said:

Are you comparing a duke3d map with mona lisa?

There're various user maps that could be compared with masterpiece paintings

[Jimmy]

Mikko_Sandt, on 26 September 2011 - 10:26 AM, said:

We didn't design the level to look like that.

Imagine someone stealing Mona Lisa from the Louvre and "improving" it with lens flares.

Just before I read your post I was going to make a similar analogy of painting over the Mona Lisa in the style of anime.

[Tetsuo]

So a map with 12x12 textures in a pixelated or blurry fashion depending on renderer settings is the same as the mona lisa..... and having high res textures is like repainting the mona lisa in anime style...... bwahahahaha oh that's rich... I understand that many of you are simply against the HRP or any other improvements but come on.... saying it looks horrible with the HRP but amazing without it is very subjective and I feel the opposite...

[Jimmy]

Implying that low resolutions are bad. Implying that pixels are bad. Maps are works of art, and should be viewed as the author intended at least the first time.

[rasmus thorup]

The author should make maps to please the players, the players shouldn't try to please the mapper.

[Jimmy]

That's like saying Iron Maiden should have been a New Wave band because that's what the people wanted, not what their artistry dictated.

[Tetsuo]

You could just as easily say any improvements are bad for any map whether they are the original maps or user maps. Because none of them are designed to be viewed that way... in fact eduke32 is bad and wrong for letting people run at resolutions higher than 800x600... I've seen stuff like that get thrown around to block anyone making anything but vanilla source ports and I never agreed with that sort of thing. But what for have features if a person is not free to exercise their right to use those features while at the same time be implied that they are not being politically correct when they do.

I'm not implying those things like nearest neighbor sampling or low resolution are bad but they aren't things that I like and I'm fine with missing out on them. I've played Duke3D since it first came out so been there done that... got the t-shirt. Maybe TX and the rest should disable all additional features for when one is running user maps in eduke32 so that way everyone can see the maps in their superior form.. yeah that'll make everyone happy.

BTW, running a map with the HRP is not at all like forcing iron maiden to be new wave.... that analogy is more like taking the Duke3D single player campaign and turning it into a RTS.... that's a completely different scenario. But yeah I get it.... you are against using the HRP especially on user maps... I'm so going to stop doing that now just because you say so oh mighty dictator... NOT.

Whenever someone uses a HRP god kills a kitten\puppy. Whenever I run the map with a HRP the anti-HRP sensors go up and a single tear rolls down the mappers cheek like the eco-indian commercial.

[rasmus thorup]

Captain Awesome, on 26 September 2011 - 01:51 PM, said:

That's like saying Iron Maiden should have been a New Wave band because that's what the people wanted, not what their artistry dictated.

No it's not? Your points are very weird o.O Why do you keep comparing duke3d with big things?

[Jimmy]

Tetsuo, on 26 September 2011 - 01:51 PM, said:

You could just as easily say any improvements are bad for any map whether they are the original maps or user maps. Because none of them are designed to be viewed that way... in fact eduke32 is bad and wrong for letting people run at resolutions higher than 800x600... I've seen stuff like that get thrown around to block anyone making anything but vanilla source ports and I never agreed with that sort of thing. But what for have features if a person is not free to exercise their right to use those features while at the same time be implied that they are not being politically correct when they do.

This map was made for Eduke32 in 8bit mode. Your point is moot.

Tetsuo, on 26 September 2011 - 01:51 PM, said:

I'm not implying those things like nearest neighbor sampling or low resolution are bad but they aren't things that I like and I'm fine with missing out on them. I've played Duke3D since it first came out so been there done that... got the t-shirt. Maybe TX and the rest should disable all additional features for when one is running user maps in eduke32 so that way everyone can see the maps in their superior form.. yeah that'll make everyone happy.

This map was made for Eduke32 in 8bit mode. Your point is moot.

Tetsuo, on 26 September 2011 - 01:51 PM, said:

BTW, running a map with the HRP is not at all like forcing iron maiden to be new wave.... that analogy is more like taking the Duke3D single player campaign and turning it into a RTS.... that's a completely different scenario. But yeah I get it.... you are against using the HRP especially on user maps... I'm so going to stop doing that now just because you say so oh mighty dictator... NOT.

Whenever someone uses a HRP god kills a kitten\puppy. Whenever I run the map with a HRP the anti-HRP sensors go up and a single tear rolls down the mappers cheek like the eco-indian commercial.

I was actually replying to Rasmus. 'You must pay attention.'

[Tetsuo]

it uses largely resources that are contained in the game and looks fine with the HRP to me so I don't care. But thanks for dismissing what I said offhand. All the original maps where made for 8-bit mode yet the HRP exists and whether or not any map originally designed for 8-bit looks good with the HRP is a matter of taste like Helixhorned said. My point stands.. watch you come back and just quip no it does not because you say so well... whatever you say.
I respond to what you said because I'm part of the conversation.

I just think that maps like this should just have a disclaimer that they weren't tested with the HRP and may not look correct with it so you are on your own if you use the HRP with it. Rather than condemning it... and trying to be a dictator and removing choice. The gameplay was exactly the same only the visuals where upgraded... with a "glitch" here and there (ike the scuba gear words) but nothing deal breaking for me. I'm not trying to remove anyone's choice to not play it with polymer\32-bit\the HRP or dictating to others what to do with their own computers.

[Jimmy]

But the visuals were not upgraded, downgraded if anything.

[Mikko]

rasmus thorup, on 26 September 2011 - 01:46 PM, said:

The author should make maps to please the players,

I vote this clause the stupidest in the history of the internet.

[Tetsuo]

Captain Awesome, on 26 September 2011 - 03:05 PM, said:

But the visuals were not upgraded, downgraded if anything.

Says you, I disagree.

May as well say it's also sacrilegious.

[Tetsuo]

Mikko_Sandt, on 26 September 2011 - 03:12 PM, said:

I vote this clause the stupidest in the history of the internet.

Sorry to butt in but... OK then so why make maps then if not to please players.... why not just keep the maps to yourself then? That way no one can desecrate them with the HRP... and you can sleep safely at night knowing this. I mean it doesn't really matter how good it looks to the person playing it if it doesn't look good to you then that's all that counts right?

[Mikko]

Tetsuo, on 26 September 2011 - 03:18 PM, said:

Sorry to butt in but... OK then so why make maps then if not to please players.... why not just keep the maps to yourself then? That way no one can desecrate them with the HRP.

Because you want others to experience your work, even if they hated it.

[rasmus thorup]

Don't you agree that you feel better when people think your map is good? I liked this map. I think it looked better with HRP. That's all.

[Jimmy]

So what you're saying is an artist should either craft his work for what other people want, rather than his own vision, or that if the artist decides to follow his own vision he should keep it for himself. "I'll give the fans just what they want, and nothing else at all!" That creates stagnation, with no breathing room for innovation.

[Mikko]

rasmus thorup, on 26 September 2011 - 03:28 PM, said:

Don't you agree that you feel better when people think your map is good?

Yes, but I'd feel worse if I made the map worse (from my own perspective) simply to please others. Not releasing the map at all would be better.

Do note that we're discussing design. Gameplay is a bit different animal and when implementing it you pay more attention to what others might think. It's more "technical" than artistic.

Also, none of this means that mappers are not open to suggestions; sometimes others can come up with good ideas that might improve your map.

[Tetsuo]

Captain Awesome, on 26 September 2011 - 04:20 PM, said:

So what you're saying is an artist should either craft his work for what other people want, rather than his own vision, or that if the artist decides to follow his own vision he should keep it for himself. "I'll give the fans just what they want, and nothing else at all!" That creates stagnation, with no breathing room for innovation.

Attempting to hold people back from running a map with the HRP even if the results are acceptable to them is not innovation nor is not having it under consideration in the first place innovation either.. neither is making maps for Duke3D in 2011 with standard duke3d.grp resources and dictating to others how they should run them. Your idea of innovation is my idea of stagnation to be technical. Although you are free to run all of Duke3D in 8-bit if you want and I am not trying to stop you.

It is possible to have a little flexibility or on the flipside admit that one is making a certain thing only for themselves. Again what you think is acceptable is not what everyone else thinks is acceptable. It's just a difference of opinion and a matter of taste and you think this map looks horrible with the HRP and and rasmus (and a few others) don't.

It just makes one appear inflexible and dogmatic to talk that way. That's how the anti-HRP crowd comes off as.

On the other hand there are certain projects here which I would run bog-standard since they include totally custom content although I for one wouldn't mind if HRP stuff was made for those projects either... such as the Blood TC. Point is there's a choice.

[Geoffrey]

I'm going to play this map with the HRP just so that the authors realize that once you've sent something into the world, you can't demand anything from it anymore - and you shouldn't. It'll live its own life. I didn't like some guy speedrunning zombie crisis by jumping over the zombies (a key which I had disabled) but it's up to him if he wants to play the game that way. And if he, by doing so, had some fun with it, then that's all what I asked for anyway.

As an author you shouldn't squeeze the life out of your work with demands on how it should be experienced. It has been said that it was designed to be played without the HRP, so if I want to experience the map the way Quakis and Mikko wanted me to then I'll play it without the HRP. If I don't, then I won't.

Tetsuo has been making good points for a couple of posts in a row, but the thing has gotten blown out of proportions the minute the Mona Lisa showed up and the entire conversation derailed.

[Danukem]

The only reason Tetsuo posted HRP screen shots is that the map authors said the HRP was unsupported, so he was trying to prove a point. I actually wrote a similar post earlier in the thread, but without the screen shots and no one seemed to mind (of course I had played the map with 8-bit art before trying it with the HRP).

What's funny is that the map is no less compatible with the HRP than most other maps, and more compatible than a lot of them. If they had simply said that it wasn't tested with the HRP and they personally don't recommend it, then I doubt there would be an issue. But when the author says the HRP is "unsupported" that suggests that it won't work, and then people will be trying to prove that it does work, and so we get this debate as a result. Maybe the debate is a good thing, though, because it has revived this thread and may cause more people to play the map, which is an excellent map by the way.

[Mikko]

Geoffrey, on 28 September 2011 - 12:20 AM, said:

I'm going to play this map with the HRP just so that the authors realize that once you've sent something into the world, you can't demand anything from it anymore - and you shouldn't. It'll live its own life. I didn't like some guy speedrunning zombie crisis by jumping over the zombies (a key which I had disabled) but it's up to him if he wants to play the game that way. And if he, by doing so, had some fun with it, then that's all what I asked for anyway.

I haven't demanded anything. I simply stated why I don't like the fact that people play this with the HRP, just as you just now said you didn't like people jumping over zombies.

[Blue Lightning]

One of the best maps I have played. I have it in my hall of fame (hardrive), and I dont accept many. Well done!

Trying to survive on hard without dying...takes strategery on this map. It forces the player to become pro with the freezethrower...the first map that does this I think. Great routing, ambience, gameplay, everything!

[quakis]

Done & Dusted v1.1 (Final)

Note to players: If you've already played the original version, don't expect too many changes. These are some things I didn't get around to touching up the first time, and to also polish up areas based on feedback such as the buggy elevator doors. This is the one and final update I'll make.

Changelog:

• Fixed some bugs, i.e: elevator doors
  
• Some switches made invisible for Polymer
  
• Polished up design and lighting, i.e: starting docks
  
• Changed a corridor near the start into a break room
  
• Moved Battlelords during finale where they belong

Download: Here

Watch this space for an upcoming map commentary article I'm currently writing up!

[Micky C]

So... it's done and dusted?

Spoiler

Sorry, it had to be said.

[Mikko]

Cool thing, although not even close to being worth starting a new topic considering we already have a topic for the map

Anyways, I've uploaded the new version to msdn.

[quakis]

Mikko_Sandt, on 22 May 2012 - 06:37 AM, said:

although not even close to being worth starting a new topic considering we already have a topic for the map

Yeah, after doing so I thought it was a bit long winded. Now merged with old thread after a request.

[Gambini]

Mikko_Sandt, on 22 May 2012 - 06:37 AM, said:

Cool thing, although not even close to being worth starting a new topic considering we already have a topic for the map

Anyways, I've uploaded the new version to msdn.

You had a topic about whether the HRP is good or not.

I replayed this map when rebetatesting it. Now with the changes it is even more clean and cool than before. I advice people to give it a second go, you won´t regret.