[Mark]

I figured out the very basics of TROR to "carve" into an existing ceiling or floor and expand it out from there. But I need to know if its possible and how to do the following:

In an existing map I have a few small buildings that are just for show and now I would like to make them a playable area. Right now they are basically just a sector raised up from the floor. Is there a way to "carve" into them?

[Micky C]

If I understand you correctly, you originally had some normal buildings, but using TROR, you want the player to be able to go inside those buildings. I warn you that you might have to redo the buildings to some extent, and they'd all have to have a similar height.

Ok firstly, highlight the entire playable area in that section, minus the buildings themselves and anything else that isn't going to end up having sky above it, then extend the area upwards. Then, make it so you can edit the top layer, and press ctrl-s (or alt-s, I can't remember) to make the sectors where the buildings are supposed to be into red-outlined child sectors (because before they should be void space). Now you can edit both above or below the TROR layer where the building is, because the floating sector is an island. Treat both the above and below sections like regular sectors, and do whatever you want.

Alternatively, if you already have extended the area, then on the top sector, draw the outline of your building, select the points with right shift, then extend them downwards the same way you would a highlighted sector. You could also do this in the bottom sector and extend the points up. Then, in the top layer, point the cursor over the building sector and press ctrl-u, which will make an island out of that sector, which you can edit normally above and below.

Check out the village in wgmicky1.map for guidance if you need it.

[Mark]

It sounds scary. I'll try something with a copy of the map because I guarranty I'll destroy it. Its in the middle of a crowded busy area. It may end up being one of those cases where it would have been proper to design the TROR from the beginning instead of trying to add later.

ADDED: Actually the buildings are spread out and need to be different heights to match their surroundings. I was hoping for a solution that could be applied to individual buildings one at a time. What I have been doing so far is putting a silent teleporter at the doors of those buildings and teleporting to another area of the map where the inside of the building has been made.

I'm still going to try out your suggestion.

[Micky C]

What I did in my village was have 3 different layers, which meant that there could be both one and two story buildings in the same area. Note that buildings can be taller than the TROR connection, but they cannot be shorter, which allows for a small amount of flexibility.

Edit: and yeah, designing maps with TROR from the beginning is normally %110 recommended.

[Master Fibbles]

I feel like it should be possible to build the TROR buildings within the main level. I'll have to test things, but I wonder if just making layers within the buildings themselves while leaving the outside separate and a single layer is possible. That is, of course, meaning adding windows may not be possible unless balconies have been built in already.

[Micky C]

That's possible. Although you won't be able to make any windows into the building in the top layer. In fact, depending on what marked wants to do, this could be the best solution for him. However, implementing it (or any TROR conversion) is going to be a painful process.

[Mike Norvak]

Maybe you could try this. (use WGR2 To open) Some trick Micky C show me

Attached File(s)

•  ConvertTROR.rar (1.97K)
  Number of downloads: 212

[Mark]

That looks just like what I needed. I'll try it out.

[Mark]

Deleted previous messasge due to figuring out my stupidity on something.

But I still can't duplicate the results from the test map. There is a step somewhere I am missing. I'm afraid I will also need a step by step instruction. Because right from the beginning after I extend the sector down I don't end up with the 2 triangles sticking up in the upper layer from the bottom one. All I have is the opening to the bottom layer in the ground and nothing sticking up.

[Stabs]

You need to make the porch first without an extending, once its extended the sector above the porch should be white and solid, simple press ctrl+a and start carvin into it

[Mark]

There is something I'm just not getting. The closest I can get is the pic. If I lower wall X then wall Y lowers with it. I can't figure out how to keep wall Y opened. I'm probably trying the right things but in the wrong order. If someone has the patience I need a step by step right from the beginning. That was how I finally grasped TROR to begin with. Someone posted a 10 step approach to using it. It had to be spelled out to me.

[Micky C]

 DanM, on 19 December 2011 - 04:19 PM, said:

You need to make the porch first without an extending, once its extended the sector above the porch should be white and solid, simple press ctrl+a and start carvin into it

That's what happens when you walk into a thread without reading the posts .

What Norvak is talking about is a technique I discovered a while ago that I've decided to coin "TROR scissoring" (I hope it catches on ). Scissoring involves the use of (sometimes multiple) angled TROR sectors to allow TROR in a localized area without extending the entire zone. What you'd do for a rectangular building is create four sectors from either the ground or ceiling, slope them until they touch the roof of the building, then extend each one up individually. You'd then edit the top 'layer' so that they all become connected and add a sector to the middle. You now have a local island to work with. There can be drawbacks to this method though, it uses more walls, and makes it harder to create complicated sectors in the immediate vicinity of the building without compromising the structure of the scissor sectors (i.e you have to make sure they keep the same shape and firstwall).

I'll be back in a few minutes with an example map.

Edit: For example, in that pic, press i to reveal the TROR boundary, which will allow you to slope it until it touches the ground. You'd then to create two other scissors if you want to hide the sides of it, or 3 more if you want to encompass the building.

2nd edit: Before I carry on with the full example map which would only be needed if you want the buildings to have windows, you only want the player to be able to enter the buildings right? I guess that would be a lot easier/less work.

[Mark]

The buildings I have in mind for this operation are packed in tight right next to other structures. I may not be able to use the scissor method for those but I'm sure the technique would come in handy later on or in my other map.

[Micky C]

Ok sorry it took so long, I tried showing as many steps as possible, plus I had to add some smileys. I ended up doing two examples where the scissor sectors angle from both the floor and ceiling, resulting in two identical buildings using different methods. If you angle them from the ceiling, then you only have to redo the roof, but if you angle them from the floor, then you can leave the roof alone, but you need to retexture the building's walls. Well, you'll see what I mean. I wouldn't use this method en masse because of the extra walls it takes up, but it's really good if you only want a touch of TROR here or there.

Edit: Note that this map is an extension of Norvak's so will have to be opened with WGRealms 2. Also, it appears to be buggy in polymost, so you'd have to use polymer. Not sure about classic. That doesn't mean it won't ever work in polymost, since last time I tried a few days ago, it couldn't even render some simple swimming pools properly.

Attached File(s)

•  ConvertTROR.zip (12.16K)
  Number of downloads: 228

[Mark]

OK. I've been able to start to narrow down what I am missing.

Using your map. Starting in the upper left and working down and then across.

Step 1 fine
Step 2 fine
Step 3 PROBLEM--- how can you extend a red lined sector? I only know how to extend a white lined sector by tracing over it a second time. And after extending is there adjusting up or down of ceilings and floors to line things up? These are the kind of steps that I am also missing.

[Micky C]

I've redone the map with regular Duke textures to make it easier to understand for the average user in case anyone else wants to download it (I hope it's visible enough here or I might have to put it in another thread).
Edit: I've reuploaded the zip, same map, but now includes a text document giving an explanation of how to do it.

To answer your questions;
1. I'm not sure what you mean... to extend a red lined sector you have to highlight it with right-alt then press ctrl-e, then pressing a or z to extend it up or down respectively.
2. When you draw the scissor sectors, they would be at the same height as either the ceiling or floor. Make the furthest wall from the building (the outermost wall) of each sector the firstwall. Then slope each sector until it touches the roof of the building. That way, one side of each sector will be touching the roof, one side of each sector will be touching the floor, and if the walls inbetween the scissor sectors are at 45 degrees like in the example, they should be matching up perfectly. There should not be any adjusting of heights of the scissor sectors neccessary.

And just to point something out, if you started in the upper left corner then went down once then across, you would have mixed up the paths of the two different methods. They should have different coloured arrows, I hope you meant all the way down then across
(the new version makes it more obvious there are 3 different methods, since each starts off with a different number).

Attached File(s)

•  TROR scissoring.zip (18.33K)
  Number of downloads: 235

[Mike Norvak]

 Micky C, on 19 December 2011 - 05:59 PM, said:

What Norvak is talking about is a technique I discovered a while ago that I've decided to coin "TROR scissoring" (I hope it catches on ). Scissoring involves the use of (sometimes multiple) angled TROR sectors to allow TROR in a localized area without extending the entire zone. What you'd do for a rectangular building is create four sectors from either the ground or ceiling, slope them until they touch the roof of the building, then extend each one up individually. You'd then edit the top 'layer' so that they all become connected and add a sector to the middle. You now have a local island to work with. There can be drawbacks to this method though, it uses more walls, and makes it harder to create complicated sectors in the immediate vicinity of the building without compromising the structure of the scissor sectors (i.e you have to make sure they keep the same shape and firstwall).

2nd edit: Before I carry on with the full example map which would only be needed if you want the buildings to have windows, you only want the player to be able to enter the buildings right? I guess that would be a lot easier/less work.

Yeah mine is just a bare and incomplete solution to the issue, anyway I'm still giving priority to Polymost compatibility what is the reason I posted that map, if someone wants to convert a simple building into TROR and still keep polymost playability, this is the way to go.

[Micky C]

Partial scissoring like what you've done is polymost compatible, but full 360 degree scissoring like what I've done is still glitchy in polymost. I don't think it'll be glitchy forever though. Considering it has trouble with even the simplest TROR, I don't think it's fully supported yet, but might be in the future. Still, even partial scissoring can go a long way. I'll be looking forward to seeing how you used it in your episode Norvak.

[Mark]

OK. I understand my step 3 problem. I was assuming that ALL extending HAD to start with double tracing the sector then select it with "alt" which is why I thought you always had to start with a white walled sector.

OOPS.