[Richard Shead]

WARNING: Long-ass post ahead.

Hey, everyone. I recently started remaking e1l1 of Duke 3D(Hollywood Holocaust, for those who don't know) with UT3's version UnrealEd.

I am building the entire thing from scratch, and I plan on putting a massive amount of effort into it. The map is still in it's earliest stages of infancy, and I have no clue as to when it'll be finished. I guess for now, I'll just have to say-you saw this one coming-WID.


So my question(s) are as follows:



1. From what I gather, it's illegal to use 3DR's level design in your own user-made content.......yet why is it that there's a good 3 or 4 other Hollywood Holocaust remakes widely available on the web. One of them is on most of the major map rating/submitting sites(mapraider, unrealplayground, etc...). Is this merely a case 3DR's negligence?

What I'm trying to say is, if I were to make kick-ass rehash a classic Duke map(as I'm attempting), would it really be *that* huge of a deal? It's already been done and those maps are still available on the web today(one of them dates back to UT99).

It goes without saying that I'd add a special thanks in the included txt file/description and credit 3DR and Allen Blum 3 or whoever designed the original.


2. The HRP. Most of the textures in my map will be from UT3's editor, but there are several instances where I can't substitute them-primarily when it comes to unique in-game signs. Is there any way I'd be able to use a select few textures to complete my level? I figured I'd post this here, as several mods have the authority on this sort of thing(or are at least aware of the the proper policies).

Again, I'd also give written credit to the HRP, and whichever individuals were involved in the creation of whatever content I were to use.

Finally, I'd just like to add that I don't really want the level I'm building to be labeled as a "copy." Of course that's exactly what it is, technically, as the layout and overall design will almost identical.

But rather than being classified it as a copy, I'd like it to be considered a tribute.

A tribute to one of the greatest levels in one of the greatest games ever made.

In it's essence and spirit it will be the same, but I intend to give the visuals themselves a face-lift, modernizing it for today's standards.



It all just boils down to me wanting to recreate one of my fondest gaming experiences with the power of modern technology.

And being bored of waiting for DNF.


Hail to the King, baby.

[DavoX]

You can't use HRP textures for anything else than the Duke3d HRP.

[Richard Shead]

psshhhh....then I'll have to find some way around that....can't have the arena without that "Bleached Blonde Bimbo Bikers" poster(or whatever it says).

[Lead]

So basically you don't want your work to be labeled as a copy despite the fact you admit the level design will be a copy, and you intend to steal textures as well?

Nothing you talked about seems to suggest much of any creative or original work on your behalf. It just sounds like you want to make a total rip-off in every area you can, but for some reason came here to try to get some sort of reassurance that what you were doing was somehow ok.

Your response to DavoX telling you that you can't use the HRP textures for anything outside Duke HRP is annoying to say the least.

[Richard Shead]

I guess you didn't read the entire OP. I admitted that it was a copy, but since that word usually elicits negative connotations, I said I liked to think of it as a tribute.

And no, dumbass, I'm not making it a total rip-off in every area I can, as you said. You need to pay more attention.

If I were making it a "total rip-off" I'd just take all the HRP textures and slap them on my level, with the level being physically constructed as close to the original as possible.

I am doing neither of the above, so back off with your retarded accusations.

I've seen many instances of modders/mappers being far more plagiaristic than anything I'm doing, so I'll think I'll take my bloody chances....

[Micki!]

Keep that tone down to a more professional level, or i'll be forced to lock this thread...

[Richard Shead]

Actually please delete this entire thread; I honestly can't see it going anywhere positive from here.

[NUKEMDAVE]

Duke Rocks, on Apr 28 2008, 05:02 PM, said:

Actually please delete this entire thread; I honestly can't see it going anywhere positive from here.

Yeah, since Lead came here and tainted this thread.

[Yatta]

Make love, not war. And stay on topic please. As for deleting the thread--we generally don't like to do that because if everyone can remain professional there won't be a need for locking or deleting threads. So please, no more insults or bitterness or I may have to post nude images of myself here. I don't think any of you want that.

[Lead]

I'm honestly surprised you'd even react that badly. The last time this happened was when I tried to explain to yet another noob why using Poser isn't 3D modeling.

Your topic is legal issues. In this situation in order to be legal you have to have a somewhat substantial difference from the original to not be considered a rip-off. I'm just saying "rip-off" to describe the point at which something might cross the line legally.

In your posts you not only expressed wanting to base it off 3DR's level design, but also asked about using Duke3D HRP textures which themselves are based on 3DR's original textures. If what you made was based on the 3DR design enough to be recognizable then you are already in murky water. If you then also went as far as to attempt to use HRP textures or even self made textures from scratch which looked too much like 3DR's work then you'd be in an even worse situation.

So my comments were just in regard to how many lines you were talking about crossing. Especially when someone else mentioned you can't use HRP textures, and your response was suggesting to find a way to get around that.

Most of those maps on other sites were probably just levels which were made and released without really publicizing the work in progress enough for anyone to really have a chance to say anything. I doubt they actively scour the internet to find people making Duke3D based maps.

[Richard Shead]

Lead, on Apr 29 2008, 08:18 PM, said:

Especially when someone else mentioned you can't use HRP textures, and your response was suggesting to find a way to get around that.

"Finding a way around that" is a rather vague expression....it could have a multitude of implications. In this situation, I gather you (mis)interpreted that as meaning something shady; as though there was some sort of hidden, malicious intent behind it.

And I do see where you're coming from, it's easy to jump to the conclusion that I was being defiant.....

What I really meant was nothing more than what I originally said. I honestly didn't know what I was going to do, and I still don't..... I certainly don't want to break any rules, but on the other hand I have my own ambitions.

It's really almost an enigma I'm dealing with....I recently posted some WIP shots of the map in question on the official Epic ut3 forums(I had the thread taken down after the fiasco here). But when the thread was up, not a single person out the good handful of posters who had responded mentioned anything about infringement, reserved rights, or the sort. Even administrators on that board were highly supportive of my idea.


I think my biggest mistake was asking about everything here.

I've never heard of these seemingly anal-retentive regulations being administered by any other gaming company. 3DR states you can't remake any level from any game they've ever made even with one of their OWN other games' engines.

I highly doubt that that's the case with Epic, as pretty much every other ut3 map is an update of a UT 1999 or UT 2003/4 classic.

On top of that, Hollywood Holocaust is free and can be played by anyone without having to pay a cent. This obviously is due to the fact that it was included in the shareware episode of Duke3D and can be downloaded from 3DR's homepage to this very date.


I have a small hunch that 3DR has a few greater concerns right now than some "noob" like me making a new version of one of their 12-year-old game levels. If they're going to pursue anything in this matter then I'll be both flattered and worried.

Flattered, that they'd feel as though I'd be of some sort of competition....and worried that a noob like me would even be considered competition. If they're concerned about my level affecting them in any negative way, shape, or form, then they must be pretty insecure about whatever they have to show(or should I say "not show?")

My "Duke Rocks" account was banned on the 3DR forums due to utterly ridiculous circumstances. I managed to get myself another account just to be able to view attachments and see full profiles etc., but I will never post there again. Had I not been banned I, without a doubt, would've quit posting anyways, due the hostile and insensitive way Joe and another moderator(kalki) treated me. It was disgusting, really, and had it not been for several other 3DR employees who had been very kind to me during my stay, I'd be inclined to download and pirate DNF to infinity the day it came out. Which, ironically enough, was one game I was planning on purchasing legally upon release.


Now after reading all this, you're probably thinking to yourself "It's no wonder he got banned, the mofo is probably delusional and deserved every bit of it."

Well let me tell you exactly what happened. I mentioned the "T" word. Torrent. I had downloaded torrent a consisting of nothing but Crysis media I could find for free online at various fansites. This was NOT and I repeat WAS NOT the official bonus DVD that came with it, nor did the torrent I speak of include any content from it whatsoever. I was having trouble extracting the .rar file it came in, so I posted my issue on the General Gaming board. I would've actually posted it on the general software board (or whatever it's called), but I thought more people would view it on General Gaming. That's the only reason I decided to include the bit about what it was that I was trying to extract.

So that bastard Kalki PMs saying he honestly doesn't know why I haven't been banned yet and to consider this a lucky break. Lucky break, my ass....I civilly write back to him telling him that I hadn't done anything wrong and the jackass just doesn't want to seem to listen. There are a few more calm exchanges, and I get the full impression that I'm dealing with a purebred asshole that always has to be "right." It's like he wasn't listening to me at all or just didn't want to. He had made up his mind and he wasn't going to change it-those sorts really piss me off. It was also obvious that he was abusing his rights as an admin, most likely, being the power hungry jerk that he is. He probably thought he wasn't doing his job unless he banned someone within a certain time period, and I guess he thought he was overdue or something.

Now here's the HUGE mistake on my behalf. While not once in my messaging to him did I lose my temper(like I am here), I remained cool and tried to explain myself in the most coherent way possible. However, at the end of my last message to him, I informed him that I was going to talk to Joe about this-which I had every right to do and was probably the best idea at that point.

What most likely took place after that is this- The dumb fuck known as kalki opens my PM and sees the part about me alerting Joe, realizing he might be in hot water if Joe gets the full picture. So....what does kalki do? At the VERY least I'm sure he told Joe that I had started a thread about downloading illegal torrents. There's a good chance Joe never even saw the original post before it was deleted by kalki. So Joe has no choice but to believe the longtime member and admin- why would he lie?

I would not have put it past kalki to have lied and told Joe that I had cursed him off, been rude, or whatnot when he had initially warned me about the thread I had started. For all I know he could've typed up fake replies from me, and forwarded them to Joe.....

I may sound a bit paranoid here, but these scenarios are far more possible than they may seem.

So after I write to Joe, Joe responds saying it isn't smart to talk about the illegal downloading of games on another game company's forums. GAME?!?! WTF? The only thing I said I had downloaded were a few fucking publicly released screenshots and trailers from Crysis.

So I respond to Joe(without being vile, though at this point I was thoroughly pissed) but of course it was too late. I was banned promptly thanks to that mother fucker kalki who not only sabotaged my reputation, but also my ability to post on one of my favorite forums ever which had brought many smiles and happy times to me.....all down the shitter as far as I'm concerned. Burn in hell, kalki.


I haven't expressed my feelings on this whole situation yet, although it happened quite a few months ago. As you can see, I have a lot of rage built up inside of me about this incident and it feels good to let it go now..... I'm not wrongfully slandering anybody here either; I truly think everything I've said about kalki was well deserved....the guy makes me sick.

I hope this is an eye-opener to you people here; just be aware that even though most people around here-and everywhere for that matter-are sincere, there are a few rotten eggs--and I know that all too well.

But enough about corrupt administrators.....sorry to have gone off on a tangent, I just feel as though this rant was quite necessary. It really had little to do with the original topic I started, but I needed someplace to vent. I hope you guys can sympathize or at least empathize with me on account of how I was treated.


Now this whole level design isn't a vendetta against 3DR or anything, it's just something I genuinely enjoy doing and find it to be a fun pastime while waiting for DNF. It's nowheres near a releasable state as of now(and it won't be for awhile), so I guess I'll just have to cross that bridge when I come to it.....

Sorry for being so chatty, but thanks for listening; it means a lot to me....

And for the record, I don't think Joe really did anything wrong in banning me, as he was clearly manipulated by kalki into believing I was a no-good-doer. There are a few separate beefs I have had with Joe, though....but we'll leave that for another post, eh?

Good night.

[Yatta]

Duke Rocks, on Apr 30 2008, 01:27 AM, said:

I've never heard of these seemingly anal-retentive regulations being administered by any other gaming company. 3DR states you can't remake any level from any game they've ever made even with one of their OWN other games' engines.

That is agreeable--they are definitely more strict and have been less encouraging of fans in the past few years when it came to mods. I remember a source-engine based Duke game being shut down.

It is however their right to control their franchise however they please, so I don't know what to tell you. I do however admire your interest in the game and I'm glad there's still people that are motivated to keep the mod community alive even if there are restrictions/obstacles along the way.

[Lead]

They probably are more strict because its taking them like 10+ years to put out a game.

If they weren't that strict then we'd have people making Duke inspired stuff so much that by the time DNF came about it would have been so done to death that it wouldn't be quite as good and might harm them in some way with people having less interest.

Like one example for me is the Matrix movies. The first one came out, and by the time the second one was out I had seen so many Matrix clones\jokes that it actually became a bit irritating seeing them wearing the same trademark clothing\glasses as they had in the first one. It affected many other aspects of the movies, but the fact that even their clothing was noticeably annoying says a lot.

[NUKEMDAVE]

Yatta, on Apr 29 2008, 09:38 PM, said:

I may have to post nude images of myself here. I don't think any of you want that.

Right. Me gets outta here if that happens.

[Micki!]

Duke Rocks, on Apr 30 2008, 10:27 AM, said:

but we'll leave that for another post, eh?

Good night.

No please don't..!

I understand your concern, and it's ok to let it out for this one post (although i'm not fond of names being mentioned)... This isn't a forum where you bash people you had bad past experiences with afterall... Especially when those people are more or less connected to this place as well...

Anyhow, let's continue with the original topic, or at least end it when there's nothing more to discuss about legal issues...

[Jon2Duke]

See, George is fairly understanding, hes READ my e-mail (no guarantee to replying) for something that could cause some major legal issues for me, just, ask him...he'll prolly say no, becuz 3DR is REALLY strict about source based games.