Duke4.net Forums: What will be Triptych's future? - Duke4.net Forums

Jump to content

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

What will be Triptych's future?

#31

View PostAltered Reality, on 13 August 2014 - 03:31 AM, said:

I wonder if he could legally remove George, though. When Scott founded Radar Group in 2008, to me it was almost as if he wanted to remove himself from 3DRealms (as I wrote in another post, "abandon the ship before it sinks"), leaving George on his own.


Well when two people own a company 50/50 as far as I can tell the only way to get rid of the other party is if that persons sells his shares. That could be to the other partner, to the company or to a 3rd party. But unless they have a contract that forces the other party to such a sale under certain circumstances then they would have to agree to that and it is far from certain they would. Even if such an agreement was in place it would depend on what circumstances would be needed to trigger such a sale, what the price would be etc.

As an employer 3D Realms could always have fired George AFAICT. But who would have needed to take that decision? Surely the owners of 3D Realms and that would include George. All of this depends on any agreements Scott and George may have had, a long with the bylaws of 3D Realms and any applicable laws of the state of Texas and/or the federal government.

Could Scott have done more? Maybe, I really have no idea. Is the main blame for DNF's issues his? I highly doubt it.
2

#32

View PostMetHy, on 11 August 2014 - 05:48 AM, said:

Blood has a dam map. I could be wrong, but I think Blood did dam, boat and train levels before anyone else in the Build engine. I wonder what's the first plane level. Maybe Wieder's map for Wanton Destruction?

The airplane at its core was a logical adaptation of the train level sector engine tricks combined with the seed geometry that the 3DR guys had built into "Unfriendly Skies". When I took the basic shapes from Unfriendly Skies to make the space actually walkable it was clear they wouldn't work... but it was a nice place to start and without the textures built for that level, would have been much more challenging to make convincing. I don't know of any sector based engine that tried to do a plane in flight prior to that. The first game I remember that made me nod in approval as an enjoyable effort was NOLF, but it was pretty different in approach.

Making such a tight space interesting and crashing into the mountain at the end were what really got my belly butterflies going when it was being built.

View PostMetHy, on 12 August 2014 - 04:47 AM, said:

I can't think of any other dam level before that one though...

Oh and BTW - Suckin' Grits on Route 66 too has a pretty cool dam level (one of the best levels of the add-on). Though that was released after that 'Damned Dam' usermap, I wonder if it was made before... maybe Wieder remembers?

It's really fuzzy so my memory stands a good chance of being wrong. What I remember experiencing while at Sunstorm is the usermap dam level that was built for one of the TEN contests being the first sector based dam that was worth a damn. It had severe issues as far as being a polished professional quality level... but was still impressive, inspiring, and humbling. I *think* the one for SGoR66 was built after being inspired by the one from the TEN contest. Especially since RR was more forgiving in general regarding framerate expectations from players.

As for what was going on at 3DR at the time, I know Allen was doing lots of experiments in Build before they finally jumped over to Quake. Once they went to Quake they always expected to build a Dam and I don't think user influence was much of a factor. But when he was experimenting in Build I think I remember him telling stories later about how the usermap inspired him to see what was possible with some of the new tricks they had developed (they had more than room over room at one point... they had room over room over room over room over however much your CPU could handle).

This post has been edited by Wieder: 01 September 2014 - 12:51 PM

2

User is online   MetHy 

#33

View PostWieder, on 01 September 2014 - 12:40 PM, said:

As for what was going on at 3DR at the time, I know Allen was doing lots of experiments in Build before they finally jumped over to Quake. Once they went to Quake they always expected to build a Dam and I don't think user influence was much of a factor. But when he was experimenting in Build I think I remember him telling stories later about how the usermap inspired him to see what was possible with some of the new tricks they had developed (they had more than room over room at one point... they had room over room over room over room over however much your CPU could handle).


That's interesting; I wonder how that would compare to EDuke32's TROR (and maybe Frederik, TerminX and Hendricks will get their hands on that somewhere on an old backup? Though they couldn't share it if it falls under "DNF development" which it might).
Now I just hope they used another method of doing it than SW's RoR, because considering how it can easily make framerate drop, "however much your CPU could handle" would mean "not really that much".

Thanks for sharing those stories btw, always interesting to hear. I'm personaly more interested in what was going on at the time of Build than at DNF drama.

This post has been edited by MetHy: 01 September 2014 - 01:45 PM

1

#34

Unless Scott and George are going to come forth and proclaim that I am Lucifer and their entire purpose as a company was to keep me distracted via masturbation to teen pop icons... I can't really say the drama was all that dramatic.

Company loses sight of why it was successful.... fails to focus influx of new energy it has attracted due to success... energy eventually leaves and helps make other people rich as company collapses in on itself. Rinse... Repeat. :)
2

User is offline   Mr. Tibbs 

#35

It's so sad that it played out that way. It's absurd that I still care about what 3D Realms and DNF, at least what it once was, in 2014, but I do. In 2006, they managed to deliver on Prey despite an 11 year gap between announcement and release. I was convinced that 3D Realms could pull it off with DNF.

The studio had a voice and style every bit as unique Looking Glass Studios or Black Isle. I guess all things must pass. :)
1

#36

It's hard to describe without sounding hyperbolic to the "average" life experience people know. But it really was a magical time.

There was definitely an energy available and for the taking to 3D Realms. It was squandered. For all I really can know it was my fault... as I had many options to "push" in certain directions despite my almost childish understanding of how to do so. Given the same options now it would definitely turn out different, but then again I might not be willing to take the same risks I took then that are now entered into the historical record of humanity even if they aren't in the commercial record. ;)

For now... I'm happy and heart warmed to watch as Halo Forge fans get excited to see that we at Certain Affinity have gone the extra mile to give them more than they expected. It's the same heart at play... "What would *I* want to see as a fan"... but a different approach to the canvas. :)
2

#37

Let's see if I can get this out in words.

The games we experience now, even the best, are more or less the lowest common denominator. The *standard* games are the games that are accepted by the average person which... from a certain point of view is the *lowest* person. The "amazing" games are the games that manage to exist at all despite the resistance... much less are accepted by the average person as "amazing" despite the lack of understanding. This is still a lowest common denominator.

This doesn't mean the best we have to offer doesn't exist in this world... it's simply not recognized on average. Not surprising.

Anyways... so there is a constant challenge for those who realize that to be recognized as excellent by society is in truth to be recognized for remarkably identifying with the lowest common denominator. The justification is the belief that it is identification with the "highest" ideal of the lowest common denominator. However, this still means identification with the "lowest" "highest" ideal that everyone shares in common.

Without these games, we wouldn't have a common language, so to disparage them is to fail to recognize their value. However, to perceive them as the bar to aim for... is to also fail to see them as they truly are. The lowest we all can understand.

Meh... I'm gonna shut up now. Humanity has recorded a vast array of groups who entered skills and knowledge into the database of human possibility that nobody will know about until some "common denominator" comes along and translates what others struggled to make real and understandable.

Enough overly emotional and dramatic self importance for one day. That said... ex-DNF devs wind up in meetings elsewhere sharing and bringing to new life what they learned pulling off the impossible in the impossible to ship walls of DNF. :)

This post has been edited by Wieder: 01 September 2014 - 08:47 PM

1

User is offline   Mr. Tibbs 

#38

It's always hard to predict what the future holds. Looking back at the late 90's developers (the .Plan file crew, as I like to call them), I would have never guessed that less than a decade, the only studios left standing would be Monolith, id, Gearbox and Human Head. At least most of the 1998-2006 3DR team has moved on to great studios (Valve, Gearbox, Retro, Certain Affinity) and continue to produce top-tier stuff.

I suppose it's like when LGS shut down, the team took their experience to Irrational, 2K Marin, Arkane and Ion Storm and their design sensibilities continued to live on in new experiences.

Still, I naively hope that someday the 2001 DNF team gets back together and says, "Hey, regular income and job security is for chumps. Let's make an outrageous, creative shooter that we own and control." - the lamest fan-fiction ever (still crossing my fingers it happens)

Happy to hear all is well at C.A. I always appreciate you taking the time to reminisce about your time at 3D Realms, "super designer". :)

This post has been edited by Mr. Tibbs: 01 September 2014 - 08:09 PM

1

#39

View PostMr. Tibbs, on 01 September 2014 - 05:24 PM, said:

It's always had to predict what the future holds. Looking back at the late 90's developers (the .Plan file crew, as I like to call them), I would have never guessed that less than a decade later the only studios left standing would be id, Gearbox and Human Head Studios. At least pretty much everyone from the 1998-2006 3DR team has moved on to great studios (Valve, Gearbox, Retro, Certain Affinity) and continue to produce top-tier stuff.

id isn't really even id anymore... and Human Head is a miracle to still be alive. But I get your gist.

It was the wild west back then, for better and worse. Almost every single person was a college drop out or didn't even bother to go... but you also could trust that almost every single person really knew what they were doing because there was no other way to get in the door or survive very long. Now you can get hired as little more than a "design accountant" as I've come to call it and wind up in charge of a major portion of a franchise if you know how and are willing to play people.

I can't say it's gotten better, but the process has gotten more predictable which is useful in some ways. Some day I'll write my Halo 4 experiences. Hair pulling, but you either adapt or die and it taught me some areas I did need to grow up on. Halo 2 Anniversary has been a pleasant experience (for me at least, heh).

View PostMr. Tibbs, on 01 September 2014 - 05:24 PM, said:

Still, I naively hope that someday the 2001 DNF team gets back together and says, "Hey, regular income and job security is for chumps. Let's make an outrageous, creative shooter that we own and control." - the lamest fan-fiction ever (still crossing my fingers it happens)

That zeitgeist is gone. I'm honestly not even sure most of us would know what sort of jokes to tell anymore. ;)

View PostMr. Tibbs, on 01 September 2014 - 05:24 PM, said:

Happy to hear all is well at C.A. I always appreciate you taking the time to reminisce about your time at 3D Realms...

CA is one of those places that is rapidly approaching a point where the gaming community at large will say "Where the heck did these guys come from?" and will look back and go "Ohhh... well damn. Smartly done." I was lucky to find them as when I moved from LA to Austin I didn't actually have a company in mind and had never heard of them. Once I did the interview I knew I wanted to jump on that train because it was clearly going somewhere and doing so very patiently, quietly, and smartly.

View PostMr. Tibbs, on 01 September 2014 - 05:24 PM, said:


Mmm... and here I had been content believing that had slipped under everyone's radar. :)

This post has been edited by Wieder: 01 September 2014 - 08:45 PM

1

User is offline   Mr. Tibbs 

#40

View PostWieder, on 01 September 2014 - 08:16 PM, said:

id isn't really even id anymore... and Human Head is a miracle to still be alive. But I get your gist.

Oh, absolutely. id is id in name only, and aside from Tim Willits and Kevin Cloud, none of the old guard is left.

Obviously you would know better than I would. I'm just rambling away. It must have been pretty damn cool to be in your late teens/early twenties working in one of the most exciting mediums in the world, especially during that particular time.

It's sad that the period has passed but I'm always happy to see designers who got their start in that shooter era (e.g. Mathias Worch) heading up enormous projects.

That bodes well for CA. Best of luck with Halo and the future!

P.S. Played through SiN Gold for the first time in years recently. Man, I wish we lived in an alternate universe where SiN destroyed Half Life at retail. :)

This post has been edited by Mr. Tibbs: 01 September 2014 - 10:23 PM

1

User is offline   KareBear 

#41

What really screwed over SiN was a debug build of the game was accidentally shipped at retail.Tom Mustaine discussed it on a podcast once.
0

#42

View PostKareBear, on 01 September 2014 - 09:47 PM, said:

What really screwed over SiN was a debug build of the game was accidentally shipped at retail.Tom Mustaine discussed it on a podcast once.

Is this literally true? As in "Oh shit, we gave them the wrong build!"
As opposed to "The publisher wants us to ship, what do we do?" "Let's give them the latest build, meanwhile we'll keep developing and we'll fix the problems with a patch"
0

User is offline   Mr. Tibbs 

#43

According to Tom Mustaine in a Garnett Lee interview from years ago. SiN supposedly shipped with dev hooks that refreshed the game every 20 minutes or so, which led to lengthy load times. All my problems went away after a 20mb patch
0

#44

View PostMr. Tibbs, on 01 September 2014 - 08:52 PM, said:

I'm just rambling away.

Doesn't mean you're wrong! ;)

View PostMr. Tibbs, on 01 September 2014 - 08:52 PM, said:

It must have been pretty damn cool to be in your late teens/early twenties working in one of the most exciting mediums in the world, especially during that particular time.

In hindsight a lot of us took it for granted. Especially those of us who weren't fronting the money. For me it really was basically an extension of my latchkey childhood except I had to buy my own food. It was an alien existence compared to what most of my peers I had been going to college with were experiencing when they entered the work world.

View PostMr. Tibbs, on 01 September 2014 - 08:52 PM, said:

It's sad that the period has passed but I'm always happy to see designers who got their start in that shooter era (e.g. Mathias Worch) heading up enormous projects.

It makes me giggle (in a good way) to watch Matthias being important. :)

He used to have to come kick me out of bed because I would always oversleep and I was his ride to work at Ritual.

View PostMr. Tibbs, on 02 September 2014 - 11:50 AM, said:

According to Tom Mustaine in a Garnett Lee interview from years ago. SiN supposedly shipped with dev hooks that refreshed the game every 20 minutes or so, which led to lengthy load times. All my problems went away after a 20mb patch

As I understand it what happened is the game had to regenerate paths every single time you launched a map because the path files were marked "read only" and thus always determined they needed to be recreated but could never actually mark them as current. We had only ever tested on locally copied versions thus the files were never read only. Lame.

I think even without bugs HL would have beat SiN at retail... but it would have certainly left a more positive mark if it didn't do the equivalent of punch you in the face every time you tried to play, heh.

This post has been edited by Wieder: 02 September 2014 - 06:10 PM

2

User is online   MetHy 

#45

View PostWieder, on 01 September 2014 - 04:51 PM, said:

Let's see if I can get this out in words.

The games we experience now, even the best, are more or less the lowest common denominator. The *standard* games are the games that are accepted by the average person which... from a certain point of view is the *lowest* person. The "amazing" games are the games that manage to exist at all despite the resistance... much less are accepted by the average person as "amazing" despite the lack of understanding. This is still a lowest common denominator.

This doesn't mean the best we have to offer doesn't exist in this world... it's simply not recognized on average. Not surprising.

Anyways... so there is a constant challenge for those who realize that to be recognized as excellent by society is in truth to be recognized for remarkably identifying with the lowest common denominator. The justification is the belief that it is identification with the "highest" ideal of the lowest common denominator. However, this still means identification with the "lowest" "highest" ideal that everyone shares in common.


Yeah and that's part of why video games suck nowadays. They're built on the principle that the players are retarded.
0

User is offline   Hank 

#46

View PostMetHy, on 03 September 2014 - 12:46 AM, said:

Yeah and that's part of why video games suck nowadays. They're built on the principle that the players are retarded.

That's such an over statement. GTA is designed for retards? Shadow Warrior 2013 was made for retards?
It takes a lot of brain power to play famous old games: to strafe, shoot, strafe, shoot, turn and shoot some more.

This post has been edited by Hank: 03 September 2014 - 04:29 AM

0

User is online   MetHy 

#47

View PostHank, on 03 September 2014 - 04:29 AM, said:

That's such an over statement. GTA is designed for retards? Shadow Warrior 2013 was made for retards?
It takes a lot of brain power to play famous old games: to strafe, shoot, strafe, shoot, turn and shoot some more.


Yes, it was a generalization.

But even then, even Shadow Warrior 2013 is dumbed down as far as FPS goes compared to what we used to get even 8 years ago.
2

User is offline   MusicallyInspired 

  • Buy Mage's Initiation!

#48

Lowest common denominator =/= retards. At least it doesn't have to. It can also refer to laziness (of the person), low expectations, that sort of thing.
1

User is online   Jblade 

#49

View PostMetHy, on 03 September 2014 - 04:32 AM, said:

Yes, it was a generalization.

But even then, even Shadow Warrior 2013 is dumbed down as far as FPS goes compared to what we used to get even 8 years ago.

I've played it in Heroic and it's tougher than the original, but I agree the level design is much simpler. That's the problem with modern design though, asset creation is gonna be expensive so re-using it is vital leading to samey levels rather than the actual layouts we used to get in the old days.
1

#50

View PostMetHy, on 03 September 2014 - 04:32 AM, said:

But even then, even Shadow Warrior 2013 is dumbed down as far as FPS goes compared to what we used to get even 8 years ago.

What do you mean by "dumbed down", specifically referring to Shadow Warrior 2013?
0

User is offline   Commando Nukem 

  • Judge Mental

#51

View PostAltered Reality, on 04 September 2014 - 01:49 PM, said:

What do you mean by "dumbed down", specifically referring to Shadow Warrior 2013?


The level layouts in SW13 are far and away simpler and more straight run-of-the-mill when compared to the original.

View PostJblade, on 04 September 2014 - 11:30 AM, said:

I've played it in Heroic and it's tougher than the original, but I agree the level design is much simpler. That's the problem with modern design though, asset creation is gonna be expensive so re-using it is vital leading to samey levels rather than the actual layouts we used to get in the old days.


I don't totally buy into that notion. Just look at DOOM. Very few assets, only a few dozen textures in a couple of "sets." Many many many many variations of level design. It's all down to the usage of the assets.

In fact, I wager, if we as a community so chose, we could pull all the assets from DNF, and make a better game out of them on the Polymer engine.
0

#52

TLDR version:
There are people who create in order to sell.
There are people who create in order to communicate.

View PostHank, on 03 September 2014 - 04:29 AM, said:

That's such an over statement. GTA is designed for retards? Shadow Warrior 2013 was made for retards?

Not retards so much as not designed for enthusiasts.

View PostHank, on 03 September 2014 - 04:29 AM, said:

It takes a lot of brain power to play famous old games: to strafe, shoot, strafe, shoot, turn and shoot some more.

No navigation markers. No maps until you had found the area. No checkpoints. No pro-tips on reload.

Everything has to be looked at in context and there is a reason most older games are considered frustrating to modern players. I agree with the comment that it's not so much about retard as it is lazy, short time commitment, etc. I'm just as guilty of this as the average COD player to be honest. I can't be bothered to finish my own levels from the past because they expect too much of me.

I've mentioned this before, but I've sat in a meeting with a lead designer of one of the tip top biggest franchises shooting down an idea because "you have no idea how stupid our players are". They failed because they underestimated how *smart* their players are, but that doesn't mean their players aren't still lazy which is the lesson I had to learn. How to get the person who only has a couple hours a week to get enthusiastic about more involved concepts than "Go where the game tells you to go and shoot the people with the opposite color". It's entirely possible to do so without being annoying... but it takes getting past the "Design Accountants" afraid of day 1 reviews... which is the real Boss Level these days.

Here is how you beat/progress in almost every game today:
-- Go where the game is pointing at and do exactly what it tells you to do.

I'm not saying there isn't a good reason for "follow the dotted line" games to exist. I just don't consider them a worthwhile bar to aim for or measure against.

This post has been edited by Wieder: 05 September 2014 - 09:29 PM

5

User is offline   Psyrgery 

#53

Welp, necropost.

Congratulations, me!

This post has been edited by Psyrgery: 10 November 2014 - 01:26 PM

0

Share this topic:


  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic


All copyrights and trademarks not owned by Voidpoint, LLC are the sole property of their respective owners. Play Ion Fury! ;) © Voidpoint, LLC

Enter your sign in name and password


Sign in options